They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

Xizor when he has backup. He can pretty much shrugg of everything.

Except TLTs among some other things

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

Xizor when he has backup. He can pretty much shrugg of everything.

See, I don't agree. It's certainly not ideal, but the more ships you have shooting at Xizor the more likely he isn't going to be able to shrug off enough to last. I've actually killed him this way a few times, and found often cripples the list since he is usually the most important asset in it.

Because you are aware of all the stuff they tested out when developing the game. It has gone through a few iterations, as those from Gencon 2011 demos can attest.

And you are aware the lead designers now are different from the lead designers that made the game right? And if all of the designers before Alex and Frank took over made all turret upgrades without range 3, maybe it's because it was really powerful to give them range 3. Not over powered, but just really strong, and like I've been saying only time will tell if it is strong enough to need a rules change. I think just adding the range 3 primary rules, because it only effects tlt and will make it more fair for generic 3 dice ships. Yeah soontier fel will still be annoying but hey he moves mostly at 2 speed so block him or drop a bomb on him, or hit him with vader. Or autoblaster ghost just needs to catch him in range one and he is dead instantly with AC in the system slot

And you are aware the lead designers now are different from the lead designers that made the game right?

Alex and Frank have been the lead designers for this game since about wave 3, prior to that it was Jason Little, and actually Alex came in around wave 2 IIRC. So there was one designer before Alex and Frank.

What's "Stresshog"?

Also I think weakening TLT by giving bonus dice vs range three is a bad idea. It already has that range 1 blind spot. If you give bonus dice at range three, TLT only becomes effective at range two...Any other range and it's either useless or bad. It costs 6 points already.

You overestimate the power of a single green die. Adding that clause would create an incentive to go for range 2, which is good, but it wouldn't make the weapon useless at three.

The Stresshog is a Y-Wing with the BTL-A4 title, TLT and R3-A2. It can double stress opponents at range 3 in arc and is therefor incredibly strong.

My friend plays Soontir Fel a lot. That one green die makes him that much more invincible.

Stresshog, interesting...

Hoe hard would it be for all of us to band together and start begging FFG to get MajorJuggler onto the design team?

New petition? New petition.

I'm pretty sure he already mentioned FFG arent willing to pay a competetive salary for that kind of expertise. Which i think is kind of curious considering Xwing is such a massive success.

Anonymous online reports peg developers at FFG in the low to mid $30,000s. A Ph.D. can reasonably expect to be employed at somewhere between half again and four times as much, depending on the field and whether you want to work for a university or private industry.

FFG can start a "hire MajorJuggler" Kickstarter. If players want the best balance money can buy, they can buy it!

But then the Factions won't be balanced. They have Davey, we have Major. It's only fair.

What's "Stresshog"?

Also I think weakening TLT by giving bonus dice vs range three is a bad idea. It already has that range 1 blind spot. If you give bonus dice at range three, TLT only becomes effective at range two...Any other range and it's either useless or bad. It costs 6 points already.

You overestimate the power of a single green die. Adding that clause would create an incentive to go for range 2, which is good, but it wouldn't make the weapon useless at three.

The Stresshog is a Y-Wing with the BTL-A4 title, TLT and R3-A2. It can double stress opponents at range 3 in arc and is therefor incredibly strong.

My friend plays Soontir Fel a lot. That one green die makes him that much more invincible.

Stresshog, interesting...

Well, Soontir Fel gets to heavily modify them, unlike most ships you will be shooting at when you have more TLTs.

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

Xizor when he has backup. He can pretty much shrugg of everything.

See, I don't agree. It's certainly not ideal, but the more ships you have shooting at Xizor the more likely he isn't going to be able to shrug off enough to last. I've actually killed him this way a few times, and found often cripples the list since he is usually the most important asset in it.

Against TLTs he has Autothrusters most of the time. And I disagree that it is ever right to focus Xizor, you accomplish a lot more by decimating his goons, since you can easily kill one of them per turn.

The TLT fix is simple, if the first attack hits, you can make the second attack. Doesn't render the turret unusable, encourages spending tokens on the first attack, makes it good against what it's supposed to be good at(kills low agility ships), makes it hard but not impossible to hit high agility ships, like it should be.

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

Xizor when he has backup. He can pretty much shrugg of everything.

See, I don't agree. It's certainly not ideal, but the more ships you have shooting at Xizor the more likely he isn't going to be able to shrug off enough to last. I've actually killed him this way a few times, and found often cripples the list since he is usually the most important asset in it.

Against TLTs he has Autothrusters most of the time. And I disagree that it is ever right to focus Xizor, you accomplish a lot more by decimating his goons, since you can easily kill one of them per turn.

assuming, of course, that Xizor + goons don't paste the TLT first. With misthunter at a base ps 3, it's only become easier to do

in the late game, Xizor's boost/roll makes it very difficult to very allow a TLT to get a shot off

This is not a complain thread and/or a nerf idea thread.

Last year the Phantom was thought to be overpowered and it became relevant from World's results. It was then nerfed with the changes going into effect at the start of Regional season.

This year World's - Post Worlds, tournament results have demonstrated evidence that TLT has caused some power creep, and I'm sure FFG is well aware of it.

Just wondering if those that play other competitive games have seen this before and if it's relatively easy to predict when an errata/nerf is coming.

Thoughts?

I think they could be fixed by costing one point more. That's all.

I play scum, it's difficult to find a better 50pts than 2 y's with TLT and unhinged. But if that was 52 pts then that would be a totally different ball(dice) game.

Regardless of the game, no brainier choices are a bad thing. TLTs are a no brainier.

This is not a complain thread and/or a nerf idea thread.

Last year the Phantom was thought to be overpowered and it became relevant from World's results. It was then nerfed with the changes going into effect at the start of Regional season.

This year World's - Post Worlds, tournament results have demonstrated evidence that TLT has caused some power creep, and I'm sure FFG is well aware of it.

Just wondering if those that play other competitive games have seen this before and if it's relatively easy to predict when an errata/nerf is coming.

Thoughts?

I think they could be fixed by costing one point more. That's all.

I play scum, it's difficult to find a better 50pts than 2 y's with TLT and unhinged. But if that was 52 pts then that would be a totally different ball(dice) game.

Regardless of the game, no brainier choices are a bad thing. TLTs are a no brainier.

50 points and you don't immediately gravitate towards brobots?

TLT is supposed to be good at hitting action-stacked aces. And it is. It is supposed to be worse against low agility ships, and it is. It is supposed to help generics more than aces, and it does. It is supposed to have a low skill cap, and it does. It is supposed to work well as a one or two of, and it does. It is supposed to be bad as pure spam, and it is.

For 50 points in scum, you simply cannot beat IG 88 B. Even if he is solo-bot, he is far more effective than 2 x TLT Y-Wings. IG 88 B, Heavy Laser Cannon, Fire Control System, Crackshot, Glitterstim, Autothrusters. Better against absolutely everything than the 2 Y-Wings are with the sole exception of high-PS aces that can out maneuver it. That IG vs. 2 TLT Y-Wings is a one sided Y-smash.

The hyperbole is insane when it comes to TLT. All this complaining about TLT Spam that doesn't win. It gets beat (and often) by every other archetype in the game. Of everything showing up on the top tables, 4 x TLT is the least represented archetype and that is not simply because there are dozens of copies of its hard counter at the top. Every other major archetype in the game is having more success. What exactly is it that people complain about from any sort of objective measure?

Stresshog is a no brainer. That is the only ship in the game that is so clearly superior. Even Poe won't fit in every list. TLTs are nice if you have 24 points and a vulnerability to aces. That's it. That is their niche. The fact that they are a relatively inexpensive generic counter to running a 30+ point super ace is not a drawback. By far the most ironic bit of complaining is the claim that TLT has hurt generics, when it is their threat vs. Aces that lets them hit the table. And I would bet the real reason many folks complain is that their immortal Soontir can find himself running out of tokens and taking hits if they fail to account for their opponents maneuvering.

People keep comparing them to pre-nerf Phantoms, but those things had one counter. Period. High PS turrets could kill them, and that was IT. If your list didn't have one of those, you were left hoping for a major screw-up on your opponents part. You couldn't out-guess him, because he was waiting until you were done moving before making his most significant decisions. TLT have many ways to out play them using any ship you happen to have on the table, and they also have many ways to build your list to minimize your vulnerability to them. If you fail to do either of those, that is not an indication of TLT OP-ness.

I get it, some folks don't like them. Fine. But that isn't an indication of OP, and it isn't a reason to nerf.

See signature.

See signature.

The Phantom and wave 5 originally took maneuvering out of the game.

Yup

Simply put, no matter how you spin it, this ain't the dark age of wave 5

Wave 7 has some lovely diversity with a few favorites popping up, which is bound to hapoen . wave 5 was just 2 ship pancake wars until heaver went full on hard counter with r2d2 and Zs

Course the hard counter to pancakes was also a pancake (fat han)

Yup

Simply put, no matter how you spin it, this ain't the dark age of wave 5

Wave 7 has some lovely diversity with a few favorites popping up, which is bound to hapoen . wave 5 was just 2 ship pancake wars until heaver went full on hard counter with r2d2 and Zs

I don't know if I'd consider his list a hard counter. It was the same thing everyone else was flying, except he swapped in a crew that was optimal if all you ever faced were other fat turrets.

Okay, it counters other similar lists, but it's just a copy and paste almost of the ones he was trying to counter. All of Pheaver's championship lists are meta lists tweaked a little to counter the meta itself, so you get the benefit of flying the best top tier list possible while also getting the benefits of having an anti-meta sqaud.

In the Falcon vs Falcon matchup, R2-D2 is the counter to Gunner Falcons.

See signature.

Read signature. Was led to ask question: "So why are you here?"

See signature.

Read signature. Was led to ask question: "So why are you here?"

Because it's not a properly dramatic flounce until you've checked in again six or eight times. You know, to make sure everyone's still playing attention to you.

The hyperbole is insane when it comes to TLT. All this complaining about TLT Spam that doesn't win. It gets beat (and often) by every other archetype in the game. Of everything showing up on the top tables, 4 x TLT is the least represented archetype and that is not simply because there are dozens of copies of its hard counter at the top. Every other major archetype in the game is having more success. What exactly is it that people complain about from any sort of objective measure?

Pre-nerf Whisper was absolutely power creep. Actually, post-nerf Whisper (notably the current optimal build of Whisper + VI/ACD/FCS/Kallus) is still power creep relative to the wave 3 meta. It also happens to be one of the very few units that is hard-countered by PS10+, which there happens to be just enough of floating around to still make it a risky choice.

However, one should not use pre-nerf Whisper as the "benchmark" for determining if new units/upgrades are power creep. That would result in many false negatives, since there have been several clear examples of power creep in the game since Whisper, but which are different in both type and extent.

24 point TLT Y-wings are one such example. I know you have said that TLT would be OK at 5 points, but realize that even at 6 points it has essentially made all of the 0-upgrade generic ships obsolete. Even if it does not affect the meta as drastically as pre-nerf Whisper did, it is still not a good thing.

There are also several other clear forms of power creep (specifically stresshog, palpatine, crackshot, and an increasing number of aces that are similar or better cost efficiency than generics.) However that does not change the fact that TLT is still power creep at 6 points. Alex essentially acknowledged this in his most recent interview, where he said that TLT has turned out to be stronger than they anticipated. It is another example of power creep (albeit not as drastic as Whisper) that was clearly predicted by the mathematics. Unfortunately FFG doesn't have that expertise or capability, but that's really an entirely different discussion about upper management's general hiring philosophy.

I agree that "the sky is falling" type of rhetoric can usually be dismissed except as being useful as a general barometer. However, a fully informed and well-reasoned view must conclude that a 24 point Y-wing with TLT is absolutely a form of power creep.

TLT is supposed to be good at hitting action-stacked aces. And it is. It is supposed to be worse against low agility ships, and it is. It is supposed to help generics more than aces, and it does. It is supposed to have a low skill cap, and it does. It is supposed to work well as a one or two of, and it does. It is supposed to be bad as pure spam, and it is.

For 50 points in scum, you simply cannot beat IG 88 B. Even if he is solo-bot, he is far more effective than 2 x TLT Y-Wings. IG 88 B, Heavy Laser Cannon, Fire Control System, Crackshot, Glitterstim, Autothrusters. Better against absolutely everything than the 2 Y-Wings are with the sole exception of high-PS aces that can out maneuver it. That IG vs. 2 TLT Y-Wings is a one sided Y-smash.

The hyperbole is insane when it comes to TLT. All this complaining about TLT Spam that doesn't win. It gets beat (and often) by every other archetype in the game. Of everything showing up on the top tables, 4 x TLT is the least represented archetype and that is not simply because there are dozens of copies of its hard counter at the top. Every other major archetype in the game is having more success. What exactly is it that people complain about from any sort of objective measure?

Stresshog is a no brainer. That is the only ship in the game that is so clearly superior. Even Poe won't fit in every list. TLTs are nice if you have 24 points and a vulnerability to aces. That's it. That is their niche. The fact that they are a relatively inexpensive generic counter to running a 30+ point super ace is not a drawback. By far the most ironic bit of complaining is the claim that TLT has hurt generics, when it is their threat vs. Aces that lets them hit the table. And I would bet the real reason many folks complain is that their immortal Soontir can find himself running out of tokens and taking hits if they fail to account for their opponents maneuvering.

People keep comparing them to pre-nerf Phantoms, but those things had one counter. Period. High PS turrets could kill them, and that was IT. If your list didn't have one of those, you were left hoping for a major screw-up on your opponents part. You couldn't out-guess him, because he was waiting until you were done moving before making his most significant decisions. TLT have many ways to out play them using any ship you happen to have on the table, and they also have many ways to build your list to minimize your vulnerability to them. If you fail to do either of those, that is not an indication of TLT OP-ness.

I get it, some folks don't like them. Fine. But that isn't an indication of OP, and it isn't a reason to nerf.

Thaaaaank you.

I suppose you are correct that it is "power creep" if you define that as an increase in average power level. Y-Wings were marginal before, now they are solid. Integrated Astromech is also power creep by that standard. T-65s were terrible before, now they are just sub-par. Ditto the TIE Advanced, that was awful before and is now adequate.

I define "power creep" as an increase in the upper boundary of effectiveness. I don't see TLT having done that. Bringing poor ships into the realm of adequacy is not a bad thing, in my opinion. You may be correct that we are not seeing purely generic ships any more, and that may indeed be due to power creep, but I would argue that the "creep" doing them in is the increased efficacy of high-PS aces, not the TLT.

Pre-nerf Phantoms were insane, and post-nerf Phantoms may also be a (much less extreme) example of power creep. But I don't think it is much, it certainly is not the equivalent of (game company not to be mentioned) intentionally creating far more powerful versions of old models and releasing them in order to force people to buy them to remain competitive.

JMO, YMMV

The vanilla, pure stats generic ship was destined to go "extinct" the moment they decided to make Uniques worth taking. I mean, the V1 is coming out with a standard title meant to give it some niche utility. Hell, this was inevitable with the limited range of stats the designers are using. Feel free to call it power creep, I guess. But not all power creep is bad, as the game is in one of the best places it has ever been.

Naked ships are boring. I am fine with ships "needing" upgrades to fit their niches. And having played in that meta, I am glad it is gone.

I suppose you are correct that it is "power creep" if you define that as an increase in average power level.

I define power creep as anything that is more powerful than the previous best ships/combos, not relative to the average power level. For example, nothing in wave 1 could have been power creep, because there no prior baseline existed. Instead, the best ships / pilots in wave 1 became the baseline by which to judge if future ships were balanced.

Equivalently, power creep may also be observed anytime a new ship/upgrade renders an old ship/upgrade completely obsolete.

The 24 point TLT Y-wing has rendered the previous best vanilla ships obsolete. This was mathematically predicted and has been empirically observed starting at Worlds. Therefore it is power creep. This is not to say that it is necessarily the best ship in the game, nor that you would want to take 100 points of pure TLT Y-wings, but it is still power creep, and the impact on the meta game is significant.

The vanilla, pure stats generic ship was destined to go "extinct" the moment they decided to make Uniques worth taking.

Not true. In a better balanced game, the uniques would be good in some situations but worse in others. They would have tradeoffs compared to their cheaper generic brethren. The main benefit of a vanilla generic ship should be that it is very cost effective compared to the unique pilots. Instead, there are several named pilots that are around equal or even higher cost efficiency relative to the best generics in the game. (Z-95, TIE Fighter, B-wing). Since the aces also have additional capabilities that aren't yet even baked into those numbers, that makes them universally better than generics. The number of qualifying uniques has steadily increased. What results is "AceWing" where it almost never makes sense to take vanilla generics. TLT Y-wings are still OK because they themselves are also power creep so they can keep up with the power creep aces. Meanwhile standard X-wings and TIEs are left in the dust.

This isn't a right or wrong situation. Just different philosophies in game design.