6x Bandit, 4x Homing Missiles, 2x Concussion, 6x Chips. Those are some nice TLT's there, would be a shame if something happened to them.

When there is a nerf to Soontir to make it actually possible to kill him, then we can talk about nerfing TLT. Yes, quad TLT is obnoxious but having someone convert 2 blanks and a focus to 4 evades with a stack of tokens, Autothrusters, and Palpatine is just as bad if not worse. This game is filled with overpowered NPE bull and quad TLT/Danger Zone is the least prevalent and arguably least annoying of all of them. I'm still astounded we're having this discussion after a full year of facing nothing but Corran Falcon/Dash and Phantom/Soontir Deci.

6x Bandit, 4x Homing Missiles, 2x Concussion, 6x Chips. Those are some nice TLT's there, would be a shame if something happened to them.

When there is a nerf to Soontir to make it actually possible to kill him, then we can talk about nerfing TLT. Yes, quad TLT is obnoxious but having someone convert 2 blanks and a focus to 4 evades with a stack of tokens, Autothrusters, and Palpatine is just as bad if not worse. This game is filled with overpowered NPE bull and quad TLT/Danger Zone is the least prevalent and arguably least annoying of all of them. I'm still astounded we're having this discussion after a full year of facing nothing but Corran Falcon/Dash and Phantom/Soontir Deci.

B-Wings and T-65s got pushed out of the meta because their generics can't take crackshot, not because of TLT. You need crackshot to be able to actually hit one of those stealthed up interceptors with Palpatine.

B-wings left because they only have one agility and are easily melted by TLTs.

T-65s left because they lack the capability to outmaneuver the Hyper-mobile Aces or TLT carriers and to a certain extent, come up short in the agility department as well. If the generic T-65s could take Crackshot, I doubt that their use would be widespread due to their cost. Considering the lack of 4x Black Sun Ace with Crackshot (and for 96 points you have 4 left over to give two glitterstim!) I think it is safe to say it is not the lack of an EPT that is holding back the T-65.

6x Bandit, 4x Homing Missiles, 2x Concussion, 6x Chips. Those are some nice TLT's there, would be a shame if something happened to them.

When there is a nerf to Soontir to make it actually possible to kill him, then we can talk about nerfing TLT. Yes, quad TLT is obnoxious but having someone convert 2 blanks and a focus to 4 evades with a stack of tokens, Autothrusters, and Palpatine is just as bad if not worse. This game is filled with overpowered NPE bull and quad TLT/Danger Zone is the least prevalent and arguably least annoying of all of them. I'm still astounded we're having this discussion after a full year of facing nothing but Corran Falcon/Dash and Phantom/Soontir Deci.

You wanna know how to kill Soontir? Gunner of IGB, that stupid Droid Killed My soontir twice in a tourny, at range 3!

B-Wings and T-65s got pushed out of the meta because their generics can't take crackshot, not because of TLT. You need crackshot to be able to actually hit one of those stealthed up interceptors with Palpatine.

B-wings left because they only have one agility and are easily melted by TLTs.

T-65s left because they lack the capability to outmaneuver the Hyper-mobile Aces or TLT carriers and to a certain extent, come up short in the agility department as well. If the generic T-65s could take Crackshot, I doubt that their use would be widespread due to their cost. Considering the lack of 4x Black Sun Ace with Crackshot (and for 96 points you have 4 left over to give two glitterstim!) I think it is safe to say it is not the lack of an EPT that is holding back the T-65.

With IA the t-65 is a little more efficient and I've always loved the b wing, and it does kinda get out run by eu large ships. Neither need crack shot, the thing that makes them, and the k fighter for scum, so much less desirable is that you got a 24 point ship that doesn't have trouble keeping up with anything and rather stay at range 3, but can still deliver a 3 dice range one attack. The y wing with tlt doesn't have to point, it doesn't have to get close, easy flight and effective fight, and not easily one shotted. I like the tlt concept, but before it y wings were way more about control so you saw one sprinkled here and there and it felt right, and if you wanted power you threw some 3 dice joust ships in, x wing, b wing, and so on. I really don't think tlt is unbeatable or needs to be limited. I just wish it had one more negative, range three bonus defense die, one more point cost, something like that. Maybe the meta will handle the problem with the great new ships and these alfa strike ordinance squads. But after the new stuff comes out, if it's still just as effective of a choice then they can look at how to fix it, but if it falls out naturally then sweet, big win for everyone and we can all stop our crying and arguing lol.

B-Wings and T-65s got pushed out of the meta because their generics can't take crackshot, not because of TLT. You need crackshot to be able to actually hit one of those stealthed up interceptors with Palpatine.

B-wings left because they only have one agility and are easily melted by TLTs.

T-65s left because they lack the capability to outmaneuver the Hyper-mobile Aces or TLT carriers and to a certain extent, come up short in the agility department as well. If the generic T-65s could take Crackshot, I doubt that their use would be widespread due to their cost. Considering the lack of 4x Black Sun Ace with Crackshot (and for 96 points you have 4 left over to give two glitterstim!) I think it is safe to say it is not the lack of an EPT that is holding back the T-65.

With IA the t-65 is a little more efficient and I've always loved the b wing, and it does kinda get out run by eu large ships. Neither need crack shot, the thing that makes them, and the k fighter for scum, so much less desirable is that you got a 24 point ship that doesn't have trouble keeping up with anything and rather stay at range 3, but can still deliver a 3 dice range one attack. The y wing with tlt doesn't have to point, it doesn't have to get close, easy flight and effective fight, and not easily one shotted. I like the tlt concept, but before it y wings were way more about control so you saw one sprinkled here and there and it felt right, and if you wanted power you threw some 3 dice joust ships in, x wing, b wing, and so on. I really don't think tlt is unbeatable or needs to be limited. I just wish it had one more negative, range three bonus defense die, one more point cost, something like that. Maybe the meta will handle the problem with the great new ships and these alfa strike ordinance squads. But after the new stuff comes out, if it's still just as effective of a choice then they can look at how to fix it, but if it falls out naturally then sweet, big win for everyone and we can all stop our crying and arguing lol.

IA keeps the T-65 from taking a damage or Crit which could allow for it to hang around for one more round of firing. IA does not make the T-65 more efficient, in the sense that efficiency is action independence or action economy and post maneuver movement. IA improves none of those things; IA raised the jousting efficiency which assumes that the X-wing will be facing the target and get average results for it's attack and defense rolls and will survive longer. Literally the T-65 will survive for exactly one extra shot. The Y-wing previously to TLT was thrown in by people who needed a turret for their squad, but did not want to go all out for a large base turret or need a HWK-290 pilot ability. ICT was just more reliable than Blaster Turret and had the added effect of Ionization if it hit. If Blaster Turret had not required that you spend a Focus to use it, I feel that the conversations we are having now about TLT would have happened much earlier (Wave 3 earlier) because the majority of people who play this game, myself included, feel that playing against turrets is a little annoying while playing against spammable turrets is just downright NOT FUN. In the end that is what the game is supposed to be, it's frigging plastic space ships being pushed around and rolling some dice while making some laser noises and quoting a line from the movies ("WHOOO! JESTERS DEAD!!!). Even tournaments offer the fun and excitement of playing against new challengers and finding out who the better pilot is. Not that flying a turreted ship is easy, but how often do you not see a 2 turn after a Y-wing went to the center of the board (here's a hint, the 2 hard turn has been a thing for turrets since the wave one Y-wing spam ICTs so its not new or inventive, the range just got extended).

What's "Stresshog"?

Also I think weakening TLT by giving bonus dice vs range three is a bad idea. It already has that range 1 blind spot. If you give bonus dice at range three, TLT only becomes effective at range two...Any other range and it's either useless or bad. It costs 6 points already.

What's "Stresshog"?

Also I think weakening TLT by giving bonus dice vs range three is a bad idea. It already has that range 1 blind spot. If you give bonus dice at range three, TLT only becomes effective at range two...Any other range and it's either useless or bad. It costs 6 points already.

You overestimate the power of a single green die. Adding that clause would create an incentive to go for range 2, which is good, but it wouldn't make the weapon useless at three.

The Stresshog is a Y-Wing with the BTL-A4 title, TLT and R3-A2. It can double stress opponents at range 3 in arc and is therefor incredibly strong.

The difference between tilts and the old phantom is that the good players are not struggling against TLTs, whereas even the best players in the world came out with articles demonstrating how nothing they did with their swarms couldn't be countered by a half-decent phantom player.

Seriously though, TLT lists are beaten with x-wing fundamentals, focus fire and the rule of eleven. The only way to beat the pre-nerf phantom was to build your list against it.

My frustration is that TLTs impose the same choke-hold on list building that Phantoms did. You can just take entire ships - forget pilots, just entire ships - and strike them off your list because you know they'll just get gutted. The retarded things are so efficient that we drive even MORE ships out of lists - like B's - because they aren't worth their points.

Remember when TIE Advanceds were going to be good? That lasted, what, 3 weeks until TLTs were released?

And yes, I am bitter that arguably the best upgrade in the game isn't even available to an entire faction.

And yes, I am bitter that arguably the best upgrade in the game isn't even available to an entire faction.

You mean Emperor Palpatine?

TIE Advanced do alright against TLTs, it is a pretty even matchup. http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v4!s!20:14:23:-1:U.107;20:14:23:-1:U.107;20:14:23:-1:U.107;20:14:23:-1:U.107&sn=Unnamed%20Squadronthat list against quad TLT is actually favoured, especially when chips are added.

What ships do you feel have no more chance because of TLT existing?

Quad Advanced stopped being a thing once everyone realized that with AC they couldn't hurt anything like a Poe or Soontir, and that ATC was really only viable on Maarek, and Vader.

This is because certain named pilots are far more efficient than generics.

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

I think part of that is due to what KO mentioned upthread. The TLT is very good against certain ships that are very popular right now. It makes sense to bring counters to those sorts of ships. B-wings and IA X-wings should wreck equivalent points of TLT Y-wings at equal points values.

As much as I respect KO, I'm not certain this is the case, although admittedly I'm not on his level of play.

At least when I play B-wings and run into TLT Ys, I have a lot of trouble closing the gap before my Bs are at a disadvantage health wise. Red 4 straight, red 3 banks, and no 3 turn means TLT Ys don't have nearly as much trouble running from them as they do other ships. T-65s may have a bit better time catching them, but they don't have the benefit of Advanced Sensors or FCS to help them compete either.

If TLT were a bigger deal around here, I would run BBXXZ in tomorrow's SC. Best of both world's and all? Still might.

Accuracy Correcting Tempests were what I ran to when TLT hit. I have full confidence in the Tie Advanced against TLT spam but they struggle against really dodgy targets.

I think the fact that the tlt dosent provide that range 3 bonus dice (and I didn't even realize this untill re reading the rules) - was that the rule book came out before any of the real secondary weapons were released - so the rules didn't account too much for them. It dosent matter for the tlt really but secondary's also do t get extra red up close either. And given that the tlt can only ever at best deal 2 damage a turn - it's not that bad imho. And I often fight against them.

The trick to beating them is ion the ship using it and or out range it or close to range 1 and focus fire untill it's dead.

You can just take entire ships - forget pilots, just entire ships - and strike them off your list because you know they'll just get gutted.

Such as? I mean if you're going to make sweeping blanket statements you need to follow them up with some sort of actual example and evidence to support your case.

was that the rule book came out before any of the real secondary weapons were released

This is simply untrue. When the rule book came out there were missiles, torpedoes and turrets in the game.

Between the Core Set and Wave 1 which was released on the same day... You had the following secondary weapons.

Proton Torpedoes

Cluster Missiles

Concussion Missiles

Ion Cannon Turret

Meh.

I was just saying the tlt came out after the rules - wich have not been (to my knowledge) updated since. Coming from the world of 40k wich is VERY much a Rock Paper Scissors style game,the tlt is small potatoes.

The first time i fought it was rough. Didn't know what it did or what to expect. After that - learned pretty quick how to deal with it. And ANY turret for that matter.

You have to be a good pilot and know how to keep range - then focus down something one at a time. Chipping away 1 on 1 for the whole game will of course get you killed. Hand out stress, ions, block, whatever suits you and these things can be dealt with. Or go the other way and be total defensive. Phantoms, fel, etc all do well against these.

Remember when TIE Advanceds were going to be good? That lasted, what, 3 weeks until TLTs were released?

AC Advanced have issues in the current meta. TLTs aren't one of them.

Yeah, Y-wings really don't like the consistent damage out put of Accuracy Corrector. Especially with Cluster Missiles.

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Yeah, I was facing a Stresshog list. I sent my two Omegas after the Stresshog, while Omega Leader and Vessery went to face Poe and Miranda. The Stresshog got 2 rounds of shooting off, with a net of 2 damage, before my Omegas finished him off. It wasn't pretty.

You can just take entire ships - forget pilots, just entire ships - and strike them off your list because you know they'll just get gutted.

Such as? I mean if you're going to make sweeping blanket statements you need to follow them up with some sort of actual example and evidence to support your case.

was that the rule book came out before any of the real secondary weapons were released

This is simply untrue. When the rule book came out there were missiles, torpedoes and turrets in the game.Between the Core Set and Wave 1 which was released on the same day... You had the following secondary weapons.Proton TorpedoesCluster MissilesConcussion MissilesIon Cannon Turret

Well actually tlt is the first range 3 turret upgrade, ion turret is only range 1-2 same with blaster, and autoblaster range 1.

So when the designers made the rule for secondary weapons, they had no upgrade to test how good a 360 degree range 3, 3 dice double attack upgrade could be. Even Alex Davey recently admitted he didn't realize how good and popular it would get. Good enough for it to be the first choice for mid twenty point ships. And like I've said before, yes it's beatable, I have been playing against the things every week and I know how to bear it. My friend plays two unhinged tlt ys and ig88b with hlc at Fcs glittercrack, and the ys are always my first target, they can just consistently put damage out.

I've also already mentioned I'm ok with waiting to see what happens with the next wave before they decide to step in. It's just a little too good for its points I think. Because yes I want tlt ys to kill big 1 agility or 0 agility ships, but it also hits 2 dice ships pretty good, and without the range protection even 3 agility ships get hit often because red dice statistically are better then green, so 3 red dice should statistically beat 3 green dice more often. So all non auto thruster 3 dice ships can't escape taking damage very often, and I don't think that was the designers intent, it's already good against aces because it forces multiple attacks which spend their precious tokens.

But hey I guess if we all have tlt blues, run some alfa strike lists or whisper rac, I've melted a y once with the first engagement with that list

Because you are aware of all the stuff they tested out when developing the game. It has gone through a few iterations, as those from Gencon 2011 demos can attest.

I've noticed that many players simply aren't aggressive enough when dealing with TLTs.

It's a 24-point ship throwing 2 x 3 reds at you per turn. If you don't deal with it quickly, then you're playing into their hands.

Anytime I see a TLT Y-wing or HWK, I try to make sure it's dead in the 2nd round of shooting. Most of the time that means it only shoots once.

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

They also don't like focused fire. In my SC the smart ones focused down my Y-Wing rather quickly, and there just isn't much you can do to stop it, other than try to run.

Who likes focused fire?

Xizor when he has backup. He can pretty much shrugg of everything.