They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

Probably VI/Palpatine/Gunner/Engine Upgrade, though I've seen it paired with VI Vader rather than Fel. The average rolls with Vader (assuming range 1 which is not an unfair assumption against anything under PS10) are h/h/c/c for both ships. It's very tough to beat.

You can't just run into range 1 and fight them, because with their low PS they will be dropping a bomb on you before you get to move again, in 3 fights yesterday I dropped 5 mines on top of opponents ships while the others were dropped in rapid succession in front of enemy ships with no chance to evade them...

Huh. With only 3 TLTs I wouldn't have thought it even necessary to mess about trying to get into Range 1, I think with most lists I'd just be trying to hover around R2 and out-shoot them.

Good on you, if that remains possible for the entire match, I would like to see someone with a consistent counter to this, somehow, I think staying at range 2 only means my bombs are doing their jobs, keeping you at MY range, playing MY game... Also, even at range 2, the Y-wing is fast enough to pass over you and be able to drop their bombs in turn. In reality, the only thing to do is to stop them before THEY get too close.... I digress, we have 30 guys already signed up for the SC on Friday, I will find out more then, but currently, that is my list and the reasons I had for building it, but it proves the TLT is far from unbalancing and needs no nerf... I HAD to do something to add damage capability, I HAD to to something to keep you away from range 1(if I wanted to run the TLT)

I also debated a third extra munitions and swapping the turrets for ICT to drop to 99 points, it became damage vs ship control, I chose damage.

You can't just run into range 1 and fight them, because with their low PS they will be dropping a bomb on you before you get to move again, in 3 fights yesterday I dropped 5 mines on top of opponents ships while the others were dropped in rapid succession in front of enemy ships with no chance to evade them...

Huh. With only 3 TLTs I wouldn't have thought it even necessary to mess about trying to get into Range 1, I think with most lists I'd just be trying to hover around R2 and out-shoot them.

Good on you, if that remains possible for the entire match, I would like to see someone with a consistent counter to this, somehow, I think staying at range 2 only means my bombs are doing their jobs, keeping you at MY range, playing MY game... Also, even at range 2, the Y-wing is fast enough to pass over you and be able to drop their bombs in turn. In reality, the only thing to do is to stop them before THEY get too close.... I digress, we have 30 guys already signed up for the SC on Friday, I will find out more then, but currently, that is my list and the reasons I had for building it, but it proves the TLT is far from unbalancing and needs no nerf... I HAD to do something to add damage capability, I HAD to to something to keep you away from range 1(if I wanted to run the TLT)

I also debated a third extra munitions and swapping the turrets for ICT to drop to 99 points, it became damage vs ship control, I chose damage.

I ran a vaguely similar list (Kavil had engine and Autoblaster Turret, and the Thugs were upgraded to Hired Guns with BTL-A4), and I can vouch that the basic idea is pretty nasty. You have great long range firepower with the TLTs, and access to a lot of good green-dice ignoring mine dropping moves.

They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

Probably VI/Palpatine/Gunner/Engine Upgrade, though I've seen it paired with VI Vader rather than Fel. The average rolls with Vader (assuming range 1 which is not an unfair assumption against anything under PS10) are h/h/c/c for both ships. It's very tough to beat.

Predator, Engine Upgrade, Gunner, Ysanne, Vader. It's the reason why I no longer fly 6x Crack Squadron, I just lose a ship a turn.

They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

Probably VI/Palpatine/Gunner/Engine Upgrade, though I've seen it paired with VI Vader rather than Fel. The average rolls with Vader (assuming range 1 which is not an unfair assumption against anything under PS10) are h/h/c/c for both ships. It's very tough to beat.

Predator, Engine Upgrade, Gunner, Ysanne, Vader. It's the reason why I no longer fly 6x Crack Squadron, I just lose a ship a turn.

Yeah, that's a very nasty list for swarms, but to be honest, he ought to be losing somewhere from eight to fifteen health in the first engagement unless his pilot is VERY god at guessing your swarm's manoeuvre. It deletes a TIE per turn, but swarms melt decimators just as quickly, albeit the Crack Shots aren't helping in that situation.

Para was just grossly exaggerating as per usual. Don't take what he says so seriously.

Personally,

I can only hope that TLT gets some type of nerf. I feel the same way about TLTs as I did about the pre-nerf Phantom, which is a deep seated hatred. I don't get very heated about most things in this game, but TLTs really strike a chord that irritates me to no end.

I also hate that TA and IA are so much less helpful for the T-65 than I had hoped (mainly because the T-65 is so mediocre), so there's that too.

The difference between tilts and the old phantom is that the good players are not struggling against TLTs, whereas even the best players in the world came out with articles demonstrating how nothing they did with their swarms couldn't be countered by a half-decent phantom player.

Seriously though, TLT lists are beaten with x-wing fundamentals, focus fire and the rule of eleven. The only way to beat the pre-nerf phantom was to build your list against it.

They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

What build do you have that gives you six ships with 8 HP each?

You need to read the paragraph that you quoted in context of the one that proceeded it and the conversation that it was part of. He was very clearly talking about his experiences flying a TIE swarm.

They're easier to play around than a 65 point delete a ship a turn (DaSaT) Rear Admiral and Soontir. Yes, all 4 of them throwing 8 TLT shots at you is hard to deal with, but so is a Dasat RAC only allowing you 6 turns with your 6 ship list, leaving you with 2.5 TIEs at best vs. endgame Soontir if you kill the Decimator.

What build do you have on Cheery that lets him take out an 8 HP ship per turn with only the help of Fel?

What build do you have that gives you six ships with 8 HP each?

You need to read the paragraph that you quoted in context of the one that proceeded it and the conversation that it was part of. He was very clearly talking about his experiences flying a TIE swarm.

It's fine, I'm guilty of skimming through posts too lol.

The difference between tilts and the old phantom is that the good players are not struggling against TLTs, whereas even the best players in the world came out with articles demonstrating how nothing they did with their swarms couldn't be countered by a half-decent phantom player.

Seriously though, TLT lists are beaten with x-wing fundamentals, focus fire and the rule of eleven. The only way to beat the pre-nerf phantom was to build your list against it.

Yep. I'll be worried when TLT squads with 13 points in an initiative bid wins some store championships.

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

I think part of that is due to what KO mentioned upthread. The TLT is very good against certain ships that are very popular right now. It makes sense to bring counters to those sorts of ships. B-wings and IA X-wings should wreck equivalent points of TLT Y-wings at equal points values.

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

I think part of that is due to what KO mentioned upthread. The TLT is very good against certain ships that are very popular right now. It makes sense to bring counters to those sorts of ships. B-wings and IA X-wings should wreck equivalent points of TLT Y-wings at equal points values.

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

I think part of that is due to what KO mentioned upthread. The TLT is very good against certain ships that are very popular right now. It makes sense to bring counters to those sorts of ships. B-wings and IA X-wings should wreck equivalent points of TLT Y-wings at equal points values.

As much as I respect KO, I'm not certain this is the case, although admittedly I'm not on his level of play.

At least when I play B-wings and run into TLT Ys, I have a lot of trouble closing the gap before my Bs are at a disadvantage health wise. Red 4 straight, red 3 banks, and no 3 turn means TLT Ys don't have nearly as much trouble running from them as they do other ships. T-65s may have a bit better time catching them, but they don't have the benefit of Advanced Sensors or FCS to help them compete either.

I look at it this way:

TLTs go from being a pretty even match with a B-wing (or X-wing) at range 3 to being hugely disadvantaged at Range 1, and they cost more than equivalent PS in B-wings (or X-wings). They get to shoot 360 degrees to make up for it, obviously.

That aside, I think an Ordnance meta will not be kind to TLTs. Ordnance carriers in the head to head match vs TLTs will hit much harder, at higher PS in a number of easy to imagine ship builds that are equivalent costs to TLT Y-wings. Furthermore, TLTs won't have an advantage at close range to counteract their long range weakness to munitions. Sure, TLTs will have better long time damage, but they'll have to be alive to use it, and they don't have the defenses to soak enough shots to be around once the magazines are empty.

Edit: Kdubb makes a good point about the B's lousy dial making closing difficult.

Yeah, Cluster Missiles just out right eat up Y-wings. I love Tempests with Clusters and Accuracy Correctors vs Y-wings.

I look at it this way:

TLTs go from being a pretty even match with a B-wing (or X-wing) at range 3 to being hugely disadvantaged at Range 1, and they cost more than equivalent PS in B-wings (or X-wings). They get to shoot 360 degrees to make up for it, obviously.

That aside, I think an Ordnance meta will not be kind to TLTs. Ordnance carriers in the head to head match vs TLTs will hit much harder, at higher PS in a number of easy to imagine ship builds that are equivalent costs to TLT Y-wings. Furthermore, TLTs won't have an advantage at close range to counteract their long range weakness to munitions. Sure, TLTs will have better long time damage, but they'll have to be alive to use it, and they don't have the defenses to soak enough shots to be around once the magazines are empty.

Edit: Kdubb makes a good point about the B's lousy dial making closing difficult.

Generally agree, but the one problem facing Ordinance in this situation is the inability to react to dice spikes. If I'm planning to focus fire down one TLT, get lucky and take it out with the first couple shots, I've lost my opportunity to declare another ship my target for other Ordinance ships. Probably not a huge deal, but I'll be curious to see how much that affects things.

I'd say that's a good problem to have . Really, though, mixed squads where you have some strong primary weapons, or a bomber of the same PS that has Deadeye is probably a decent build consideration. It gives you a little more flexibility.

My biggest problem with TLT is not that it's super broken, but it's just so effective and efficient that the other mid to low 20 point cost ships are kinda just on the sideline, t-65, b wing, and similar ships just don't compete next to it. Idk what's the best way to fix that, just saying to me, that's the biggest problem

I think part of that is due to what KO mentioned upthread. The TLT is very good against certain ships that are very popular right now. It makes sense to bring counters to those sorts of ships. B-wings and IA X-wings should wreck equivalent points of TLT Y-wings at equal points values.

As much as I respect KO, I'm not certain this is the case, although admittedly I'm not on his level of play.

At least when I play B-wings and run into TLT Ys, I have a lot of trouble closing the gap before my Bs are at a disadvantage health wise. Red 4 straight, red 3 banks, and no 3 turn means TLT Ys don't have nearly as much trouble running from them as they do other ships. T-65s may have a bit better time catching them, but they don't have the benefit of Advanced Sensors or FCS to help them compete either.

I appreciate it, but I'm just a guy. I can see other people's points, just presenting a different point of view.

For the B's, when facing turrets of any sort I move slowly not fast. Tight formation, move real slow straight at them. If they are flying away, they go too far. If they are flying towards me, all is well. I haven't faced a ton of 4xTLTs to be fair, and those I have I beat solidly. I haven't actually used BBBBZ against a 4xTLT list either, since I rarely face the latter and even more rarely fly the former. I am sure my point of view is as biased as anyone else's.

It's funny, I am seeing a huge variety in builds now, even to the point of seeing Imperial builds that DON'T have Sontir Fel in them! Yes, some TLT builds are doing well, but they AREN'T dominating. And no, pointing to Paul Heaver as an example just tells me he is very good, not that TLT is overpowered.

But then, half the posts in this thread are the usual 'Outplaying TLT is too hard, nerf it please' type comments.

Meh.

But then, half the posts in this thread are the usual 'Outplaying TLT is too hard, nerf it please' type comments.

Meh.

Let me help correct that ratio by posting an opposing view. In my meta, when the card initially came out it was very good and a TLT list won a tournament. Then we started learning how to counter it and now it is generally viewed as a good card with exploitable flaws (e.g. getting into range 1).

If a TLT list wins now, we regard it more as a matter of pilot skill. We still factor it into the meta, but that is true for a lot of things, from PWT's to Soontir Fel.

Yeah, Cluster Missiles just out right eat up Y-wings. I love Tempests with Clusters and Accuracy Correctors vs Y-wings.

My regular sparring partner isn't such a fan, ever since I ran 3x AC Cluster Tempests with Colzet against his TLT Ys, Poe, and Bandit. Both Ys went down in successive turns, along with the Bandit with the second Y. Poe took a bit longer to tear down, but consistent red dice beat hopeful green dice every time. I think I took a shield or two in damage all game.

B-Wings and T-65s got pushed out of the meta because their generics can't take crackshot, not because of TLT. You need crackshot to be able to actually hit one of those stealthed up interceptors with Palpatine.