Vader actually gets wrecked by TLTs, but you still see a good deal of him
the problem with the other named advance is, quite simply, that they're not Vader
the problem with AC generic is opposing green dice. They absolutely murder poor defenseless 1 agi Y-wings and are very tough to chew through since they can evade without issue, but you couldn't hit soontir with 6 of the bastards let alone the 4 max you're allowed to take
If the choice is between changing a card or having to release multiple cards to "counter" it, or going to xwing 2.0... then I'm in favor of changing 1 card.
I DON'T THINK WE'RE THERE. I DON'T THINK TLT WILL EVEN GET THERE.
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For breakfast I'm having Chia Seed Pudding with Vanilla Almond Milk and Thai Tea Flavoring. It pairs nicely with my Medium Roast Costa Rican coffee (black of course).
i chugged a mountain dew kickstart (orange pinapple mango, the good kind not the weird crappy orange soda kind) because i woke up late. regretting it now that im at work and havent had a chance to go to lunch. . .
also tlt is annoying but i dont think its phantom-bad.
No one has mentioned how much help tlt has given the hwk... I would call the play a resurgence.
How often do you see Juno? 1 game in 100? Maarek? Colzet?
TLT aside, why would you take any of those instead of Soontir, Carnor or Omega Leader?
Regarding AC Tempests I'm genuinely curious: are they really more effective than crackshot blacks? I'm not an Empire player so can't really offer an opinion, but from across the table I fear crackshot blacks a great deal more than AC Tempests.
Regarding generics: barring special uses)(blockers, ICT Y-Wings), generics are all about the raw point effectiveness. There will always be a mathematically best option, and people will gravitate toward that.
TLT aside, why would you take any of those instead of Soontir, Carnor or Omega Leader?
Regarding AC Tempests I'm genuinely curious: are they really more effective than crackshot blacks? I'm not an Empire player so can't really offer an opinion, but from across the table I fear crackshot blacks a great deal more than AC Tempests.
Regarding generics: barring special uses)(blockers, ICT Y-Wings), generics are all about the raw point effectiveness. There will always be a mathematically best option, and people will gravitate toward that.
Juno's ability is amazing. It does truly wonderful things for the Advanced. I would much rather have her than Carnor (though probably not Soontir). Omega Leader wasn't even spoiled at the time, so it's hard to say. These days? Eh, maybe not. Maarek is one of those budget aces whose ability is really awesome in the right list.
AC Tempests are, IMHO, better than Crack Blacks. They are tough little bastards with guaranteed offense, meaning all their actions can be spent on defense (evade) and positioning (barrel roll). Getting them off the board can be a real chore. Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles). They are far, far more survivable than TIE Fighters. I do so wish there was a generic Advanced with an EPT.
I get that there will typically be a mathematically "best" option for generic filler in lists; what I don't understand is why that filler has to have a 360 degree firing arc out to range 3 without granting extra defense dice. That's pretty over-the-top. B-Wings were good filler, but you had to know how to fly them, and their dial meant that they did have drawbacks. TLT Y's don't suffer from nearly the same restrictions for only a few more points.
No one has mentioned how much help tlt has given the hwk... I would call the play a resurgence.
And it's been mentioned, but not enough: the TLT dramatically cut down on super-turrets, which it itself opened up the meta to a huge swath of options.
Half-MoV is a boogie-man rather than an actual deterrent ... but TLTs have made a difference. Large-Boost is still broken, so we're still seeing tournaments being won with super-turrets ... but not like before, thank God.
TLTs are annoying when spammed. I, personally, don't think they're "beatable," but actually "easy to beat." But they are annoying when spammed ... and also (at least in the Bay Area) actually embarrassing for the flyer. We all know they have a severely limited skill ceiling, so it's an actual statement when a player feels the need to fly them to get some wins.
honestly, if I had to point out any bad thing about TLT spam, it's the all TLT v all TLT matches
now that's some uninvolved ****, and basically autowin for whoever brought more TLTs
still nowhere near as bad as PWT on PWT violence, though, so we're still far better off as is
Edited by ficklegreendicehonestly, if I had to point out any bad thing about TLT spam, it's the TLT v TLT matches
now that's some uninvolved ****, and basically autowin for whoever brought more TLTs
still nowhere near as bad as PWT on PWT violence, though, so we're still far better off as is
Funny, I've beaten 4 TLT with 2 
should've specified all TLT v all TLT
I'd put money on any lists running TLTs as support for something else (ala Heaver's world's list) before putting it on TLT spam.
Half-MoV is a boogie-man rather than an actual deterrent
A point of order, please:
"Bogy", or occasionally "bogie" or "bogey", emerged in English in the 19th century as an epithet for the devil. It's closely related to "bogle" and "boggart". It appears most often in modern English in the context of golf and in the compound phrase "bogy-man" or "bogeyman".
A "boogie-man", on the other hand, is just a really hip dancer.
Edited by Vorpal SwordA point of order, please:"Bogy", or occasionally "bogie" or "bogey", emerged in English in the 19th century as an epithet for the devil. It's closely related to "bogle" and "boggart". It appears most often in modern English in the context of golf and in the compound phrase "bogy-man" or "bogeyman".A "boogie-man", on the other hand, is just a really hip dancer.Half-MoV is a boogie-man rather than an actual deterrent
"play that funky music white boy" or is funk and boogie two different things?
Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles).
Empire: pretty much everything flown competitively but Palp shuttle and Decimators has 3 dice.
Scum: only 2 really competitive lists, Brobots and 4 TLTs, one of them has 3 dice on all ships.
Rebels: here it's getting better for AC Tempests. Corran has 3 dice, A-wings have 3 dice, Poe has almost 3 dice, but then you have k-wings, Y-Wings, Dash and even Fat Han.
Still, a ship that struggles with 3 green dice enemies will have difficulties to be competitive IMO, even without TLTs. Hell, probably even more so without TLT, as a fair bit of the 1 agility ships would be gone too.
Edited by LordBlades
A point of order, please:"Bogy", or occasionally "bogie" or "bogey", emerged in English in the 19th century as an epithet for the devil. It's closely related to "bogle" and "boggart". It appears most often in modern English in the context of golf and in the compound phrase "bogy-man" or "bogeyman".A "boogie-man", on the other hand, is just a really hip dancer.Half-MoV is a boogie-man rather than an actual deterrent
"play that funky music white boy" or is funk and boogie two different things?
You can boogie-down while you get funky. The two are not mutually exclusive.
A "boogie-man", on the other hand, is just a really hip dancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman
"Bogeyman (also spelled bogieman, boogeyman, or boogie man, and pronounced /bʊɡimæn/ or /boʊɡimæn/; see spelling differences)[1] is a common allusion to a mythical creature in many cultures ..."
That's practically saying that their main weakness is dealing with about half of the common competitive lists.Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles).
Empire: pretty much everything flown competitively but Palp shuttle and Decimators has 3 dice.
Scum: only 2 really competitive lists, Brobots and 4 TLTs, one of them has 3 dice on all ships.
Rebels: here it's getting better for AC Tempests. Corran has 3 dice, A-wings have 3 dice, Poe has almost 3 dice, but then you have k-wings, Y-Wings, Dash and even Fat Han.
Still, a ship that struggles with 3 green dice enemies will have difficulties to be competitive IMO, even without TLTs. Hell, probably even more so without TLT, as a fair bit of the 1 agility ships would be gone too.
True. 2-dice attacks versus 3-dice defenses - especially from lower PS - rarely ends well. Hence the Cluster Missile concept.
A list of pure AC Tempests was never a super-awesome idea, anyway. They should have been the kind of ship that you could mix in as a solid blocker who was hard to kill and had mediocre offense you could rely on. They may yet get back to that point, but it's hard to imagine now.
TLT aside, why would you take any of those instead of Soontir, Carnor or Omega Leader?
Regarding AC Tempests I'm genuinely curious: are they really more effective than crackshot blacks? I'm not an Empire player so can't really offer an opinion, but from across the table I fear crackshot blacks a great deal more than AC Tempests.
Regarding generics: barring special uses)(blockers, ICT Y-Wings), generics are all about the raw point effectiveness. There will always be a mathematically best option, and people will gravitate toward that.
Juno's ability is amazing. It does truly wonderful things for the Advanced. I would much rather have her than Carnor (though probably not Soontir). Omega Leader wasn't even spoiled at the time, so it's hard to say. These days? Eh, maybe not. Maarek is one of those budget aces whose ability is really awesome in the right list.
AC Tempests are, IMHO, better than Crack Blacks. They are tough little bastards with guaranteed offense, meaning all their actions can be spent on defense (evade) and positioning (barrel roll). Getting them off the board can be a real chore. Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles). They are far, far more survivable than TIE Fighters. I do so wish there was a generic Advanced with an EPT.
I get that there will typically be a mathematically "best" option for generic filler in lists; what I don't understand is why that filler has to have a 360 degree firing arc out to range 3 without granting extra defense dice. That's pretty over-the-top. B-Wings were good filler, but you had to know how to fly them, and their dial meant that they did have drawbacks. TLT Y's don't suffer from nearly the same restrictions for only a few more points.
Sorry who named my 4 ac advanced cluster list thundetstruck? I made it don't I get to name it...
Sorry who named my 4 ac advanced cluster list thundetstruck? I made it don't I get to name it...
NIGEL!!! I will have to forgive him he's pretty cool.
A "boogie-man", on the other hand, is just a really hip dancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogeyman
"Bogeyman (also spelled bogieman, boogeyman, or boogie man, and pronounced /bʊɡimæn/ or /boʊɡimæn/; see spelling differences)[1] is a common allusion to a mythical creature in many cultures ..."
I mean, are we sure we want to trust Wikipedia?
Unfortunately, TLT's kinda killed all the Tempest hype. TLT's (thankfully) neutered fat turrets, but there was a lot of collateral damage as well.
Collateral damage here having the meaning of "acceptable loses"
Collateral damage here having the meaning of "acceptable loses"
But the 1-2 quad TLT lists that make it to top 8 have /nothing/ on the obnoxious 7/8 players having Fat Turrets, and a Brobots list Turretwing era bull top 8.
AC Tempests can actually do some work to 1 agility ships. Yes, their primaries blow against aces, however couldn't you run quad Prockets to help a little against them?
Should still help you against quad TLT too. Give them the initiative and use that to make better choices with actions and barrel roll.
2 AC Prockets Tempests, 2 AC Cutlasses with TIE MK II is 98 points. Ditch the TIE MK II's and you could put Autothrusters on each Cutlass for 100 points even. Or Flechette Torps on each Cutlass for tagging Soontir.
Edited by ParaGoomba SlayerThat's practically saying that their main weakness is dealing with about half of the common competitive lists.Their big weakness is 3-agility ships, which is partially where the Thunderstruck variant of that list came from (4x AC Tempest with Cluster Missiles).
Empire: pretty much everything flown competitively but Palp shuttle and Decimators has 3 dice.
Scum: only 2 really competitive lists, Brobots and 4 TLTs, one of them has 3 dice on all ships.
Rebels: here it's getting better for AC Tempests. Corran has 3 dice, A-wings have 3 dice, Poe has almost 3 dice, but then you have k-wings, Y-Wings, Dash and even Fat Han.
Still, a ship that struggles with 3 green dice enemies will have difficulties to be competitive IMO, even without TLTs. Hell, probably even more so without TLT, as a fair bit of the 1 agility ships would be gone too.
True. 2-dice attacks versus 3-dice defenses - especially from lower PS - rarely ends well. Hence the Cluster Missile concept.
A list of pure AC Tempests was never a super-awesome idea, anyway. They should have been the kind of ship that you could mix in as a solid blocker who was hard to kill and had mediocre offense you could rely on. They may yet get back to that point, but it's hard to imagine now.
Tbh, I don't think TLT killed the 1 AC Tempest in a list idea, but rather the multitude of TIE/fo (and TIE/ln) pocket aces. A Tempest starts at 21 points. So does Omega Leader.
That is a rules supplement, not an upgrade or a pilot card. The example you displayed provides a poor rebuttal to my statement.
Allow me to present a better rebuttal then.
Not a rules change, but a clarification AND a reprint of an actual upgrade card.
There's precedence & they have done it before for other FFG games.
Side-note, a friend finally bought the TIE Adv. expansion yesterday and guess which version of the card was inside?
That was not a power correction errata (aka nerf) but a function correction errata. Without "free action" in the wording the barrel roll would not be possible giving the current wording. That was a grammar mistake on FFG's part not a balance error.
So unless you have been treating EH as giving you a barrel roll + another action (if you are then you are playing the game wrong) but to ensure the mechanic was done in order of doing a barrel roll action and removing a target lock token. It did not give any other benefit.
Edited by Marinealver
