A Firing Arc includes the Width of the line. That means that adjacent Arcs share the line as part of their respective Arcs.

So, on each previous picture I showed, the attack range is measured through the arc line which is of both arcs simultaneously. Thus you are measuring through the arc of a non defending hull zone just by touching the line.

I would argue that just because you are tangent to the arc line doesn't mean that you pass through the arc line.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

If what you are saying is true then there really is no universe in which two ships can shoot at each other's side arcs, because the range measurement of closest point to closest point of any two ships trying to shoot each others' sides is going to be touching the arc line of the defending ship unless they are absolutely perfectly parallel. And if someone claims they are parallel, you better bust out the protractors because if they are offset by more than 0.0 degrees then the attack is invalid.

Actually, that is not always going to happen. The pictures show a flat surface measured to a corner, you turn the ISD or the ship you are attacking by a degree and things will change because the closest point changes.

I would take a picture but I am off to work again so someone else can do that if they wish.

I would argue that just because you are tangent to the arc line doesn't mean that you pass through the arc line.

The line is the closest point of that arc so you would measure to it. If any point of either arcs were closer (and it is pretty easy to tell) then you would measure to that.

Now, I hate the attack range through an arc rule. I think it really is not needed since you should be allowed to measure to whatever you see in the defending arc. This is why I bring this up.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

If you measure up to an arc line you will be measuring through another arc line.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

At what point does that change then?

If you measure up to an arc line you will be measuring through another arc line.

A Nebulon B should, by your argument, be immune to any and all attacks from ships, because the hull zone arc lines all end at the corners and therefore it is physically impossible to measure range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) to any place but those corners where the arc lines hit.

That FAQ ruling was meant to address the following situation:

Here the ISD is attempting to shoot at the left hull zone of the CR-90 with its front gun. The measurement of line of sight from dot to dot is good, but the measurement of range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) passes through a sliver of the rear hull zone of the CR-90. Therefore, the attack against the left hull zone of the CR-90 is an illegal attack.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

At what point does that change then?

If you measure up to an arc line you will be measuring through another arc line.

You measure up to the line, not over the line. "Up to" by it's very nature means you stop once reach that point. You don't continue measuring over the line... -------><------- The line and the measure touch, but do not cross. Nothing goes over anything else.

As the line is both hull zones you have measured to the correct zone without going over the line.

Schrodinger's Hull Zone...

Btw, we are not talking about Fireing Arcs, we are talking about HULL ZONES.

which is different

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

At what point does that change then?

If you measure up to an arc line you will be measuring through another arc line.

A Nebulon B should, by your argument, be immune to any and all attacks from ships, because the hull zone arc lines all end at the corners and therefore it is physically impossible to measure range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) to any place but those corners where the arc lines hit.

Yup it includes the width of the firing arc. So does the adjacent arc. That is why it states 'if you cross a hull zone other than the defending hull zone' bit.

cross·ing

~ the action of moving across or over something.

Sorry wrong term. They use "through" which if you are hitting an arc line you are going through both arcs.

Measuring up to an arc line does not measure through that arc line. Ergo - legal shot!

End of story.

At what point does that change then?

If you measure up to an arc line you will be measuring through another arc line.

You measure up to the line, not over the line. "Up to" by it's very nature means you stop once reach that point. You don't continue measuring over the line... -------><------- The line and the measure touch, but do not cross. Nothing goes over anything else.

As the line is both hull zones you have measured to the correct zone without going over the line.

Schrodinger's Hull Zone...

I am stating that it is a bad rule that while has some place it is not needed and can lead to many situations where arguments are not needed.

Btw, we are not talking about Fireing Arcs, we are talking about HULL ZONES.

which is different

Btw, we are not talking about Fireing Arcs, we are talking about HULL ZONES.

which is different

You could be right but the RRG says you are not.

All it says is that a hull zone is "delineated" by the arc line.

So what does delineated mean?

"indicate the exact position of (a border or boundary)."

No we're does it say that Arc lines are part of the hull zone, it only says they indicate the border

Basically you are allowed to go through arc lines because they are not part of the hull zone

Basically you are allowed to go through arc lines because they are not part of the hull zone

You are touching the hull zone you are targeting and at the same time touching the adjacent hull zone so it would be going through that hull zone as well.

I am stating that it is a bad rule that while has some place it is not needed and can lead to many situations where arguments are not needed.

Touching does not equal going through.

Basically you are allowed to go through arc lines because they are not part of the hull zone

Which means ships can't measure range from them. . . Hmmmm you may be on to something

Ultimately this whole discussion stemmed from the false assumption that arc lines are part of hull zones.

Which (it turns out) they are not.

If I ever do play you, Lyraeus, I'll just bring a full fleet of Nebulon Bs.

If I ever do play you, Lyraeus, I'll just bring a full fleet of Nebulon Bs.

That is fine. I will take them on like always, directly from the side.

Basically you are allowed to go through arc lines because they are not part of the hull zone

Which means ships can't measure range from them. . . Hmmmm you may be on to something

Ultimately this whole discussion stemmed from the false assumption that arc lines are part of hull zones.

Which (it turns out) they are not.

This does change a few things now. If an arc line hits another arc line and not the associated hull zone you cant measure to that hull zone. . . hmmm

That FAQ ruling was meant to address the following situation:

Here the ISD is attempting to shoot at the left hull zone of the CR-90 with its front gun. The measurement of line of sight from dot to dot is good, but the measurement of range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) passes through a sliver of the rear hull zone of the CR-90. Therefore, the attack against the left hull zone of the CR-90 is therefore an illegal attack.

So in this case the ISD can only shoot at the front of the CR-90? Is this true?

That FAQ ruling was meant to address the following situation:

Here the ISD is attempting to shoot at the left hull zone of the CR-90 with its front gun. The measurement of line of sight from dot to dot is good, but the measurement of range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) passes through a sliver of the rear hull zone of the CR-90. Therefore, the attack against the left hull zone of the CR-90 is therefore an illegal attack.

So in this case the ISD can only shoot at the front of the CR-90? Is this true?

Correct. Which I think is silly.

If I ever do play you, Lyraeus, I'll just bring a full fleet of Nebulon Bs.

That is fine. I will take them on like always, directly from the side.

But we've already established that they are immune from all attacks on any hull zone.

That FAQ ruling was meant to address the following situation:

Here the ISD is attempting to shoot at the left hull zone of the CR-90 with its front gun. The measurement of line of sight from dot to dot is good, but the measurement of range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) passes through a sliver of the rear hull zone of the CR-90. Therefore, the attack against the left hull zone of the CR-90 is therefore an illegal attack.

So in this case the ISD can only shoot at the front of the CR-90? Is this true?

Correct. Which I think is silly.

This rule is to prevent the "reacharound" - an edge case where a ship sitting sideways where its far side arc is technically inside of arc and line of sight from dot to dot is measured clear. It's a little silly if you can hit the side of a ship that is not facing you.

That FAQ ruling was meant to address the following situation:

Here the ISD is attempting to shoot at the left hull zone of the CR-90 with its front gun. The measurement of line of sight from dot to dot is good, but the measurement of range (closest point of attacking hull to closest point of defending hull) passes through a sliver of the rear hull zone of the CR-90. Therefore, the attack against the left hull zone of the CR-90 is therefore an illegal attack.

So in this case the ISD can only shoot at the front of the CR-90? Is this true?

Correct. Which I think is silly.

This rule is to prevent the "reacharound" - an edge case where a ship sitting sideways where its far side arc is technically inside of arc and line of sight from dot to dot is measured clear. It's a little silly if you can hit the side of a ship that is not facing you.

That got fixed when they required that you measure to a spot where your Arc line can see. I know the old issue, I addressed it in my Targeting 2.0 video.

That ISD should have a shot on the Side Arc of the CR90.

As for the nebs, cool I will ram them to death. One way or another you will likely lose.

So, are we agreed that measuring range to a line does not constitute going through a different hull zone?

So, are we agreed that measuring range to a line does not constitute going through a different hull zone?

Just dont go through one hull zone to another and I will be happy.

Thank you for putting up with my eccentricities everyone.