Hope you guys can help me sort out this one roleplaying issue, that came up last session.

Our cell (consisting of an Arbitrator, Reclaimator Scum and a Psyker) has attempted to infiltrate an upscale drugdealers den, and got into serious trouble.

We're all around rank 3 and we ran into Praetorian Battle-Servitor, armed with a heavy bolter, and then into drug dealer's vat-grown twin honor guard, armed with power swords, backed by the drugdealer himself, equipped with a refractor field... well, you get the idea.

So, the situation goes like this - the Psyker enters the empty room, while the others are staying behind. It suddenly turns out, that the room is not empty, as the battle servitor arms his heavy bolter. The Psyker manages to hide behind cover as the servitor unleashes hell upon him and his fellow Arbitrator.

Seeing this, the Scum runs for the exit, despite the orders to stand and fight. We somehow manage to outwit the servitor, as he follows the Scum, who manages to safely leave the building.

This is when the things get interesting. Psyker and Arbitrator find themselves cornered in a room by the drug dealer and his associates. And decide to sell their lives for the highes possible cost. All this time they continue asking for aid from the Scum over the vox-beads, but silence is all they hear.

The battle ensues, with the enemy trying to capture the Acolytes, while Acolytes try to do as much damage as possible, on the verge of suicide.

Finally, they are captured, but are left alive for some odd reason, and after some time find themselves badly scarred, tortured and drugged in a hospital, with a Slaanesh symbols branded on the back of their sculls (underneath the skin, so not that obvious, but still very unpleasant discovery).

And it boils down to the frustration with the Scum's actions (both in chacacter and out). Out of character reasons, I think, were very slim chances of survival against the servitor and fear of losing a Fate point (which he has only 2 left). The thing is, that his presence in the fight could have made a difference, needless to say we were very pissed at him.

So, what do you think would reasonable reaction for such actions be?

In game or out of game?

In game, most characters I play would probably kill him (assuming the Inquisitor doesn't take care of the situation himself).

Out of game...well that's up to you guys to figure out. Seeing as I don't know any of you I can't honestly say what you should do. I will say though that what he did wasn't necessarily bad roleplaying. Personally I would deal with it in game (see above ).

Actually, he may have made the right decision from an in-game point of view. Hear me out now....

His character discerns that the small group will only fail in the fight. Therefore the proper course of action is to escape to carry word of the crime to others. The Imperium does not expect everyone to fight to the death at the of a hat. Just to fight to the death when it's appropriate. In this case what does fighting to the death achieve? Well, nothing. The Throne Agents would die, and the crime would continue. Escaping, however, at least assures that the crime might be stopped in the future.

Just a different take on it.

]N[ said:

Well he plays a scum, what did you expect? They are called scum for a reason you know, and it's not because of their noble code of honor or their supreme willingness to fight to the death.

The way I see it, he played his character in an appropriate manner. If a scum finds himself against overwhelming odds and has the opportunity to escape, then he would do just that.

As for out of character: You're doing the wrong thing if you get emotionally involved. It's just a game after all, and it's a game about playing a fictional character that isn't you. So it would be extremely childish to hold the player responsible in real life for what his fictional character does in a fictional setting. It's like when you're a kid playing army with toy guns, and getting angry for real at someone just because they "shoot" you.

It would depend. I could see his actions as reasonable if the psyker charged into the room against advice. It seem like the party could have been a bit smarter, and really should have run rather than stay and fight.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Pretty much this, exactly.

It sounds like he was playing the role correctly - even if the result was painful for the rest of the group. I would think that in future situations your characters should do something to assure that his character helps out... I dunno, put someone at the exit with instructions to shoot anyone trying to flee the scene - or something like that.

As far as out-of-character ways to deal with him. Let it go. Your GM has plenty of new and interesting plot ideas (I'm sure) after this encounter and it should lead to plenty of fantastic scenarios from here on out. Roll with it...

Varnias summed it up perfectly.

I mean, what were you guys expecting for the worst dregs of imperial society to be pulled out of the gutter? Something a bit more then self serving interest? Hah! The scum that was in my group would have done the exact same thing. The difference is he would have tried to shoot the Praetorian first and, if it didn't go down, then he'd run like his ass was on fire. However, unlike your group, the adept would have been two steps behind him. The guardsmen might have tried to suicide it alone, but he doesn't like being alone so...

Of course, my cell is big on knowing when to take something out and knowing when to get the big boys involved to take said things out. When heavy weapons make an appearance, they tend to start looking for backup. They will never fight anything on equal or that things terms. They will only fight if they have the clear and distinct advantage and work damned hard on getting it.

But, as far as character reactions to the Scum, what ever your characters reactions would be I guess. As for out of character responses, it. It's just a game. There is no winning or losing, just the interesting messed up journey you take to what ever end there is. And, hell, thanks to the scum, your journey seems to have gotten infinitely more interesting! Now the real fun for you guys is about to start! You might owe him a bit of thanks for this.

Edit: actually just seeing the lot of you were rank three. That boy has more brains then the two of you combined. He very well might have a long career if he keeps such survival instincts about. If he had been there, I'm fairly certain the lot of you would be branded in the skull now. After all, the only reason you were able to deal with the praetorian was because of his running. If that hadn't happened, there'd be a lot of chunky salsa in and around that room now. You might want to take a page from him. Instinctively scums, which he tends to be, have a very acute survival instinct. If you see one running screaming like a little girl, chances are, you might want to as well unless your up for more scars and soul rending experiences. True, this won't do much to stop the enemies of man, but if you have the intel, why not get someone with bigger guns to take care of the problem? Arbiters love putting the law to heretics who violate it and they got whole Kill Squads and tanks to do so love driving around over the heretics.

Hell, he'd have gotten extra XP for being smart in my games

i understand the umbrage you take with his actions in game. it feels like a betrayal. and any characters (in game) would be hard pressed to forgive such a thing. he didn't attempt to extract those in the room, lay down suppressive fire to affect a withdrawl, he just high tailed it. i'd be suitably upset (in game) and if I would have survived he would have been jettisoned out the guncutter sans gravchute.

that said, you gotta know when to leg it. you gotta know when you just don't have the lemons to make lemonade and no pitcher to stir it in. don't look at every encounter in DH as 'FIGHTIN TIME'. tactically, the assault seemed a bit flawed. but i wasn't there so i can only go on what you have described. in essence my opinion meaning squat. next time. know when to run. but this brings another question to mind? you have played with this player to rank 3, i would assume? has he never legged it before? if anything your inquisitor is a poor judge of character. seriously though, try thinking more tactically. trying to take on a kingpin on his turf is bound to bring the pain. you should have contacted the local enforcers for aid in such an endeavour, or set about making his rivals do the work for you. DH and role playing, IMO, shouldn't be about always ramming through each potential firefight with your own guns blazing. finesse and tactics. how did you all manage to miss him having a Praetorian servitor? you gotta know when to do a ****** and grab, have a few words with one (or a few) of their minions. did u say the psyker went in 1st?

out of game. i am not going to agree with many that have posted here citing his character as being Scum and that is what is expected. as a matter of fact a part of the description of the Scum career path in DH states:

" An Inquisitor does not pick just any felon he happens to stumble across to become his agent and to serve as an Acolyte the Scum must be trustworthy-to an exent-and their talents need to be considerable. He needs to be more than just a common ganger."

I reckon you'll find some scum that are right hard bastards and some that are not. regardless, he played it as he felt he should and wanted. its not an offense to take too serioulsy. its a game and never worth losing acquaitance nor friendship over.

Also, time to get ready to buy some prosthetics to replace the chunk of scalp and skull you're going to have to excise to get rid of the heretical mark. At the very least, a metal plate to cover the hole in your skull.

Sorry i just don't see the 'issue'.

Sounds to me like the only sensible player and character at the table was the scum!

IC

Scum are, well, 'scum'. Whats the point in steaming in to such an obviously nightmarinsh combat situation unless you're a combat character like a guardsman?

I see no problem at all with the character playing out like this and running away. Frankly the other characters were stupid to not follow him out the door.

OOC

Seriously...where's the issue?

This player was presumably PLAYING A ROLE.

That's the point of the game.

If i were playing that scum and you guys reacted like you have, i'd think seriously about whether i wanted to play with you anymore.

Yoour 'problem' with this scum-character player seems to me to be unwarranted.

I find the statement that he was 'ordered' to get involved both telling and troubling. 'Ordered' by who? Who has the authority to tell this acolyte of the Inquisition what he should do and how he should prosecute his Inquisitorial rersponsibilities?

I think this scum/player has more of a problem having to deal with your unrerasonable reactions to his roleplaying...

If he wants to roleplay a 'coward' or a 'sensible, smart survivor' where's the problem?

Of course you do have a reason to worry, if the Scums reported back to the Inquisition he can spin a tale of daring do and courage and how his companions turned into Slaaneshi branded criminals, oh look! there they are! *shoots*

MILLANDSON said:

Ditto!

For those of you who have a D&D background, I was once the only survivor of Dragon Mountain. Why? Because, when the bad-ass over-powered dragon offered to let anyone who left him a magic item leave in peace, I gave him what he wanted, and left ... with my hide intact ... granted, said hide was permanently BLUE from a wild magic effect ... but it was mine, and it was intact.

So, from a purely role-playing aspect, your scum did EXACTLY what he should have. And ... he put in place a possibility that the rest of your overly-brave hides might have a chance of rescue.

But, on a personal note, I can still understand everyone else's frustration. Perhaps that frustration should be put to use ... educating the more rash members of your group in the finer details of "common sense" ... just sayin' ...

First session I ran, the Scum in our party's auto pistol jammed in the first conflict they got into. He ran for it and hid while the other PC's took an (arguably a harder) fight, and after questioned his cowardice.

"Did you want me to ineffectually slap the Hivers or retreat to a safe distace so I could come get you if things turned out bad?" was his response.

They figured he had a point and let it drop. I gave him the extra xp for playing his role well.

Acolytes aren't Marines.

Giantcavecrab said:

Ditto! Nor should they be! That's why you [the acolytes] have access to Inquisitorial Caveat! All you have to do is convince your Inquisitor that you alone can't handle the extent of the problem ... if he's/she's sufficiently convinced, then he/she will undoubtedly send for "reinforcements" of the most deadly kind.

Granted, that may diminish his/her opinion of his acolytes ... but, what's more important to a devoted servant of the Imperium? Self-aggrandizement, or the elimination of Humanities' enemies? Just sayin' ...

To the OP, out of morbid curiosity, what were your characters armed and aroured with?

Graver said:

I second that! My first DH character (level 5) was sliced in half at the torso by a cultist wielding dual power swords. At level 3, I might have hoofed it out of there, too. Strategically, that seems like it was the best course of action. Well, maybe my first character wouldn't have done so. She was a young idealist, fresh out of the Abbey. She would have expected the Emperor to protect her, regardless. Which is how she got sliced in half.

I'm thinking maybe your GM didn't intend for you to stand and fight these guys, considering your level.

OK, let me clear this up a little.

It may have sounded like I was whining, but I'm not. Out of character - I don't have any issues with the Scum player - we are long time friends.

So, what I am more interested in - is a sensible reaction from my character, who is a de facto leader of the group. Murder or maiming are out of the question, since the mission is far more important, than personal disputes and we have only three members.

I agree, that the whole idea was rather stupid, but the Scum was the one strongly supporting the plan to infiltrate the drugdealer's den and shoot stuff... So his hasty retreat was a surprise for us - he didn't make a single shot before legging it...

As for why we didn't try to run - we had very little chances to do it, trapped between power swords and a heavy bolter... I would've probably jumped out of the window of the spire - if there was a window...

Now, I don't mind him escaping to help us later - but he never did... And no response over the vox is the worst thing... Imagine yelling for help, knowing he can hear you, and getting no response... This seems like a treason to me...

So I am thinking about some disciplinary punishment of some sort. We're heading to Ambulon now, and I'm thinking about dropping him off a hundred kilometers away from the city and making him walk the dangerous plains... Or something along the lines... I feel - in character and out of character - that the Scum and his player's faith in the Emperor are severely lacking - and this is a lot more dangerous, that a Slaanesh brand on the scull...

Graver said:

We all wear Flak Coats, except for the Scum, who has a Mesh Coat. The Arbiter had a Vanaheim, which I had serious hopes for... but, as my Psyker opened up with a Fearful Aura with a overbleed, giving him Fear rating of 3, the Arbiter was out of the fight, puking his guts out for three rounds... The enemy was a bit more successful... I had a possibility to run, while the enemy was trying to snap out of it, but that would mean leaving fellow Acolyte behind, so I stood and fought.

Wow, just wow. I think, realistically, the cell should chalk it up to a complete fubar by all involved.

With the armour you guys had, you would ave been turned to chunky salsa by that Preatorian in no time flat. it's weapons would have made short work of the lot of you especially at such close ranges were it would have some crazy bonuses to hit and in order to do any damage (full auto 2d10 X weapon with a pen that renders all your armour utterly useless. And if a Vanaiem was the best weapon you lot ad, the only way you would ave even scratched the Preatorian is wit a Righteous Furry. With a righteous Furry, you'd average about 4 points of damage against it which means you would need to RF 5 times on the average to bring it down. And then, after he tenderizes you, you'd ave to face off to a fella in melee combat with a powersword (and those who carry them tend to really know how to sue them)... Whether the scum stayed or went, you guys were toast. Barring some crazy dice rolls or something miraculous happening, you all would have been owned just as the last two of you were.

I guess that's some negative points in the scums favor for coming up with the idea (never let them do the logistical thinking), but you should have taken his lead. I guess though, IC reactions, you would need to decide which is more important, the entire cell dying for it's honor, or getting into as to cell members demise to other's so that hey know what happened.

As for the no response, were you in a hive and was he out of range or was he there, breathing, but not answering? He could have indeed been a coward and hiding in the broomclosit but he could have also been trying to find some additional quickly hired help, find a way back to your Inquisitor to get a new cell to avenge your deaths, or some other bit. Find out what his reasoning was. If selfish, have him walk the desert or some such. If it was to save the mission, well, if your characters are petty and resentful of you possible martyrdom, he could walk the desert, but, he was doing the right thing by sacrificing the rest of the team. In the end, that's mostly up to your PC's, who they are, and how they think.

Though, it's most definitly not all the Scums fault. What the heck was the psyker doing popping Fearfull Aura?! I assume it was against the preatorian? Doesn't that silly psyker realize machines know no fear? Good use of friendly-fire there though!

In the end, I think he lesson all of you can take from this is the scum ran so readily because he knows a bad plan when he sees it in action probably because his plans tend to be bad.

Graver said:

I agree. I would chastise the psyker rather than the scum in this scenario. The scum was being smart, albeit he or she might have simply tried to save his/her skin. The psyker was just being plain stupid nuking off a fearful aura which would do his/her teammates a lot more damage than it would against the described enemies. What was the point of that?

The Praetorian was out of the fight, when we fought the Powerswords - he couldn't fit through the doorway to the room... I know that the fight wasn't a good idea, but some suppression fire could've helped - we had grenades and really could've pulled this off... And Fearful Aura worked wonders before, so I used it again... Our enemies were not that high on willpower, they just rolled better then the Arbiter... Tough luck.

]N[ said:

Well, I guess you just learned why most PC's don't like psykers. Fearful Aura and similar area of effect powers are one of the prime reasons, aside from perils of the warp of course.

I don't think you can really judge the scum with cowardice as it seems to be one of legitimate and well founded fear. If the scum has turned his tail and run whenever the going got tough then yeah he's a coward and would be better off as a servitor. But this one incident leaves some gray area. Especially considering that once he started running he was being chased by a big bad nasty and not simply hiding in a dumpster waiting for the gun shots to stop. The only difference between him and the arbitrator in the fight is that one roleplayed his fear and the other had the game mechanics yoke him with it.

The real issue with him is one of a lack of team mentality. A cell of acolytes is a single organism and there is no room for thoughts of self-promoted glory or a selfish preservation mentality. He has broken that trust and done a lot of harm to your cell's sense of unity.

It sounds like a number of fumbles added to the cell's trouble that you all are a part of (the Psyker applying a risky use of their power, the unfortunate fear test of the arbitrator, the trail of urine following the scum). Additionally you have to look at things from the standpoint of a leader...if the cell fails you fail in the eyes of your Inquisitor for improperly performing your duties (at least my group's Inquisitor sees it that way).

I would not rush too quickly to proscribe punishment and demerits to your scum cell-mate, as that kind of thing has a way of spiraling off the table and into real life or resulting in a monkey knife fight ( pc on pc combat). If you want the player to see consequences for his character's actions you should talk to the GM about it as well as your friend. Maybe the answer is reduced xp for essentially missing an encounter. Or perhaps he'll be able to redeem himself by coming to your rescue. Maybe your character simply picks up a severe dislike of him and one day he may not recieve help when he needs it.

I think the main thing that should occupy your attention at the moment is not the sideways actions of your group-mate but rather whether or not you will be able to convince any higher ups that you are not corrupted by the ruinous powers (even against your will). Acolytes showing up with subdermal chaos runes is typically a good way to end up on fire...especially if you are a psyker.

@ ]N[

i understand your frustration. such an act cannot be allowed to stand. it is a betrayal of trust that acolytes must have to see the mission through, if as you claim he had input into the mission to infiltrate. then when it all went balls up he had a severe case of buyers remorse. at the very least he should have lent what firepower he had to fight. to add insult to injury, to be off comms/ignore comms/whatever is a serious breach of common respect and courtesy for fellow Acolytes. i cannot see ANY kind of Inquisitor putting up with that.

as i stated in my previous post, there is nowhere that states Scum as being blatantly spineless. so i am not even buying the argument of many here that the Scum was being 'in character ' and fitting the DH model. it takes one simple breach of character to mark you as being untrustworthy. i wonder how many of you would REALLY simply say to yourselves, hey our buddy just ran off in the middle of a firefight. that's OK. i'm sure he had his reasons. in real life, you would ALL be pissed. if one of my men had ever done that in a firefight...apoplectic with rage couldn't cover it. even on the real mean streets of any city, you run with your gang or scum and you punk out and run like that. you are going to be called ..some very bad names and most likely end up VERY dead.

in game, are you all really trying to state that his fellow acolytes would treat this lightly? the Inquisitor wouldn't treat this lightly. jettison him or kill him. cause in the 'real grimdark' game...thats exactly, what would go down. at the very least, the trust broken, he would be left at the nearest spaceport of call. reroll new character. there is a tactical withdrawal and then there is cowardice. and this counts as such. such a person is not worthy of the Inquisitions money not attention. what would happen if he was captured? he would sing sing sing. and it will be only a matter of time before, this scum high tails it again.

understand. you all played it wrong and didn't work your intel. you went in as a blunt force. and you didn't think of how to exit IF and when it all went balls up. 3 Acolytes vs a drug den? call it a teachable moment and pick better Scum to associate with.