Does the Sniper Shot talent work with the Gunnery skill?
Sniper shot and gunnery
Yes.
I think there's even a starship upgrade/modification that gives you a rank of it.
I think there's even a starship upgrade/modification that gives you a rank of it.
There is and it's called the Advanced Targeting Array.
However, the Devs have said that the Advance Targeting Array's Sniper Shot is specifically for star ship combat. And that the Talent Sniper Shot does not work with star ship combat and therefor does NOT stack with the Advance Targeting Array.
I believe the intent is that they did not want Xwings to be able to shoot out to long/extreme range.
However, the Devs have said that the Advance Targeting Array's Sniper Shot is specifically for star ship combat. And that the Talent Sniper Shot does not work with star ship combat and therefor does NOT stack with the Advance Targeting Array.
I believe the intent is that they did not want Xwings to be able to shoot out to long/extreme range.
Can I get a source on this? Because otherwise I am going with the consensus that yes Sniper Shot works with gunnery.
Can I get a source on this? Because otherwise I am going with the consensus that yes Sniper Shot works with gunnery.
Personal-Scale Talents and Startship Combat
You said the sniper shot talent doesn't work in starship/vehicle combat, however the Advanced Targeting Array attachment has Innate Talent (Sniper Shot) as a Modification Option, is this correct?
Answered by Sam Stewart:
To answer your other questions; generally the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used in Starship combat, but in that particular instance, it can be. I apologize that it's not called out, though, I can certainly see the confusion. However, yes, the idea is that in general, the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used with starship scale weapons (because the ranges are that much bigger) but that mod should let you if you get it. I should add, if you'd like your players to use Sniper Shot in Starship Combat, it shouldn't break the game to let them do so. It does decrease the viability of starfighter dogfights, however (when the PC can shoot their opponents before they get in range, it may take some of the challenge out of dogfighting), so just be aware.
However, the Devs have said that the Advance Targeting Array's Sniper Shot is specifically for star ship combat. And that the Talent Sniper Shot does not work with star ship combat and therefor does NOT stack with the Advance Targeting Array.
I believe the intent is that they did not want Xwings to be able to shoot out to long/extreme range.
Can I get a source on this? Because otherwise I am going with the consensus that yes Sniper Shot works with gunnery.
I have a feeling it was on an Order 66 podcast episode, possibly Episode 46, FFG Standing By. I'll see if I can find it and give you a time for it.
Lathrop thank you for the source, this answers my question perfectly.
Can I get a source on this? Because otherwise I am going with the consensus that yes Sniper Shot works with gunnery.
Personal-Scale Talents and Startship Combat
You said the sniper shot talent doesn't work in starship/vehicle combat, however the Advanced Targeting Array attachment has Innate Talent (Sniper Shot) as a Modification Option, is this correct?
Answered by Sam Stewart:
To answer your other questions; generally the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used in Starship combat, but in that particular instance, it can be. I apologize that it's not called out, though, I can certainly see the confusion. However, yes, the idea is that in general, the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used with starship scale weapons (because the ranges are that much bigger) but that mod should let you if you get it. I should add, if you'd like your players to use Sniper Shot in Starship Combat, it shouldn't break the game to let them do so. It does decrease the viability of starfighter dogfights, however (when the PC can shoot their opponents before they get in range, it may take some of the challenge out of dogfighting), so just be aware.
Actually the longer I read the rules concerning this question, the more I disagree with Sam Stewart's answer to this very question, but in that same spoiler section a little way up a question about sniper shot comes up and Max Brooke answers the question about sensor compared to weapon ranges as if the intent of the Sniper Shot is fine to be used with starship/vehicle weapons. Plus Gunnery still falls under a "non-thrown ranged attack" which is pretty specific to non-thrown ranged attacks, in other words any ranged attack that isn't a thrown ranged attack.
And before people go flying off the handle about: "But Developer said blah blah blah..." two developers are not in agreement about the Sniper Shot talent and starship/vehicle weapons already. The rule should have been called out specifically because many other talents, even other talents in the sharpshooter tree specifically call out non-starship/vehicle weapons when the intent of the talent is meant for ranged attacks that aren't non-starship/vehicles (Deadly Accuracy for one).
Does that mean other talents that aren't specifically called out to use starship/vehicle weapons are not meant to be used with starship/vehicle combat? Like Lethal Blows?
How about Quick Strike, as it doesn't specify whether the dice adds to combat checks on the personal combat level, or starship/vehicle level? I would assume yes since it only says combat checks, rather than calling out starship/vehicle combat or not.
How about Spare Clip? Does that only count for personal scale weapons, or does that count for starship/vehicle weapons as well? It's in the Gunner tree, so I imagine it would work for starship/vehicle combat, but again it doesn't specify one way or another.
Or even something like Side Step, does that count towards starship/vehicle versus individual characters? If an X-Wing is shooting at a soldier on the ground can that soldier use Side Step, since it's a ranged attack even though it's a Gunnery attack by the X-Wing? Which that's even less specific language than the Sniper Shot talent uses.
So that's just a few more questions about the ambiguous way the talents are written when comparing vehicle combat to personal combat, and even mixing the two.
Personally the more I think about it, and the more talents from around the trees or even in the Sharpshooter tree makes more sense that it would apply to gunnery checks. According to the side bar on page 218 of AoR Core it says that there are two different kinds of combat checks: melee attacks and ranged attacks, which Gunnery is a ranged attack with zero ambiguity. And if the Sniper Shot specifically was meant to be only used with non-thrown, non-starship/vehicle ranged attacks, except for the advanced tactical array mod, then it should have said something to that effect.
Finally, the original dev answer post was released in June of 2014, and my research says that the AoR core rulebook was released in July of 2014. The sniper question, I am sure was asked sometime back in the EotE era before the AoR rulebooks were printed, and even later printings could have fixed it. So while one developer says the intent was that the personal scale Sniper Shot talent not be used for Gunnery, it doesn't reflect that.
Which are the reasons why I disagree with Sam's ruling of Sniper Shot not meant to be used with Gunnery.
Can I get a source on this? Because otherwise I am going with the consensus that yes Sniper Shot works with gunnery.
Personal-Scale Talents and Startship Combat
You said the sniper shot talent doesn't work in starship/vehicle combat, however the Advanced Targeting Array attachment has Innate Talent (Sniper Shot) as a Modification Option, is this correct? Answered by Sam Stewart:
To answer your other questions; generally the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used in Starship combat, but in that particular instance, it can be. I apologize that it's not called out, though, I can certainly see the confusion. However, yes, the idea is that in general, the Sniper Shot Talent shouldn't be used with starship scale weapons (because the ranges are that much bigger) but that mod should let you if you get it. I should add, if you'd like your players to use Sniper Shot in Starship Combat, it shouldn't break the game to let them do so. It does decrease the viability of starfighter dogfights, however (when the PC can shoot their opponents before they get in range, it may take some of the challenge out of dogfighting), so just be aware.
Actually the longer I read the rules concerning this question, the more I disagree with Sam Stewart's answer to this very question, but in that same spoiler section a little way up a question about sniper shot comes up and Max Brooke answers the question about sensor compared to weapon ranges as if the intent of the Sniper Shot is fine to be used with starship/vehicle weapons. Plus Gunnery still falls under a "non-thrown ranged attack" which is pretty specific to non-thrown ranged attacks, in other words any ranged attack that isn't a thrown ranged attack.
And before people go flying off the handle about: "But Developer said blah blah blah..." two developers are not in agreement about the Sniper Shot talent and starship/vehicle weapons already. The rule should have been called out specifically because many other talents, even other talents in the sharpshooter tree specifically call out non-starship/vehicle weapons when the intent of the talent is meant for ranged attacks that aren't non-starship/vehicles (Deadly Accuracy for one).
Does that mean other talents that aren't specifically called out to use starship/vehicle weapons are not meant to be used with starship/vehicle combat? Like Lethal Blows?
How about Quick Strike, as it doesn't specify whether the dice adds to combat checks on the personal combat level, or starship/vehicle level? I would assume yes since it only says combat checks, rather than calling out starship/vehicle combat or not.
How about Spare Clip? Does that only count for personal scale weapons, or does that count for starship/vehicle weapons as well? It's in the Gunner tree, so I imagine it would work for starship/vehicle combat, but again it doesn't specify one way or another.
Or even something like Side Step, does that count towards starship/vehicle versus individual characters? If an X-Wing is shooting at a soldier on the ground can that soldier use Side Step, since it's a ranged attack even though it's a Gunnery attack by the X-Wing? Which that's even less specific language than the Sniper Shot talent uses.
So that's just a few more questions about the ambiguous way the talents are written when comparing vehicle combat to personal combat, and even mixing the two.
Personally the more I think about it, and the more talents from around the trees or even in the Sharpshooter tree makes more sense that it would apply to gunnery checks. According to the side bar on page 218 of AoR Core it says that there are two different kinds of combat checks: melee attacks and ranged attacks, which Gunnery is a ranged attack with zero ambiguity. And if the Sniper Shot specifically was meant to be only used with non-thrown, non-starship/vehicle ranged attacks, except for the advanced tactical array mod, then it should have said something to that effect.
Finally, the original dev answer post was released in June of 2014, and my research says that the AoR core rulebook was released in July of 2014. The sniper question, I am sure was asked sometime back in the EotE era before the AoR rulebooks were printed, and even later printings could have fixed it. So while one developer says the intent was that the personal scale Sniper Shot talent not be used for Gunnery, it doesn't reflect that.
Which are the reasons why I disagree with Sam's ruling of Sniper Shot not meant to be used with Gunnery.
As an aside, I always assumed sniper shot was not ranked but have just checked and it is. So with enough ranks you can shot a holdout Blaster to extreme range? Seems a little urmm, extreme.
Agree that there seems to be a muddling of terms. Gunnery and star ship combat are two very different things. And though star ship combat uses Gunnery, that does not mean that Gunnery is not used for other things. As others have noted, Gunnery is very much used in personnel scale combat (HRB, E-Webs, Missile Tubes, etc).
And not be a stickler, but you are misquoting Sam's ruling. He did not say Sniper Shot cannot be used with Gunnery, he said that Sniper Shot should not be used for space combat. Again, Gunnery and space combat are two different things.
Another example, The Sniper has two ranks in Sniper Shot. Put that specialization behind a Heavy Laser Cannon with the Advance Target Array's Sniper Shot and that player is shooting at Extreme range. Which is farther than anyone can accurately see. Or worse, but them behind a Light Turbo Laser and they can now shoot beyond extreme range.
Again, not that you cannot do it, just food for thought.
The complication is that Sam's answer just says starship combat, but not all gunnery checks involve starships. Missile tubes use gunnery and it makes sense that sniper shot could be used with them (except that they already have extreme range). So there are two questions, can sniper shot be used with some gunnery checks? Yes. Can sniper shot be used in starship combat? Maybe not.As an aside, I always assumed sniper shot was not ranked but have just checked and it is. So with enough ranks you can shot a holdout Blaster to extreme range? Seems a little urmm, extreme.
Yes, I understand the difference between Gunnery and Starship combat. However, as I mentioned above, a couple times, whenever a talent specific doesn't want you to use it for starship/vehicle it will call out "non-starship/vehicle combat" like it does in the Sharpshooter talent "Deadly Accuracy". Whether that was an oversight or not with Sniper Shot (my personal opinion is that it was not an oversight at all) is the matter up for debate. Not whether or not Sniper shot can be used for Gunnery specifically, but whether or not Sniper Shot can be used with Starship/vehicle ranged combat. Which, with supporting evidence of my above post that Sniper Shot is meant as written to be used with starship/vehicle combat.
The matter with Sniper Shot being ranked, the talent as written grants two difficulty upgrades for every rank you use the talent, which I find perfectly balanced.
Agree that there seems to be a muddling of terms. Gunnery and star ship combat are two very different things. And though star ship combat uses Gunnery, that does not mean that Gunnery is not used for other things. As others have noted, Gunnery is very much used in personnel scale combat (HRB, E-Webs, Missile Tubes, etc).
And not be a stickler, but you are misquoting Sam's ruling. He did not say Sniper Shot cannot be used with Gunnery, he said that Sniper Shot should not be used for space combat. Again, Gunnery and space combat are two different things.
Another example, The Sniper has two ranks in Sniper Shot. Put that specialization behind a Heavy Laser Cannon with the Advance Target Array's Sniper Shot and that player is shooting at Extreme range. Which is farther than anyone can accurately see. Or worse, but them behind a Light Turbo Laser and they can now shoot beyond extreme range.
Again, not that you cannot do it, just food for thought.
Here's what Max Brooke answered a similar question about starship combat weapon ranges, which was answered above Sam's post in the very same spoiler thread:
Answered by Max Brooke:
Starship Sensors and Comms On page 239 it describes Sensors and Comms, and state that Comms have a range equal to that of the sensors.
Is it always tied to that or just initially, and does that work both ways
Increasing the range of a vehicle’s comms does not increase that of its sensors. However, increasing that of its sensors would increase that of its comms.
If you have a weapon with a range greater than your sensors can you not target things outside of your sensors range, or can you and there is just a penalty (Upgraded or increased difficulty, or setback dice)?
Example: YT-2400, Sensors: Short, Upgraded turrets have heavy laser cannons with advanced targeting arrays with sniper shot. Do you have to use the sensors in active mode (to boost them to medium range in a single arc) to be able to utilize the sniper shot mode to hit targets at medium range (in that arc)?
Sniper Shot already includes an upgrade to the difficulty of the check, which reflects the difficulty of firing beyond optimal range. Further, keep in mind if something is outside of the sensor range of a ship, those aboard the vessel frequently do not know that it is there to shoot at it.
However, if they do end up in a situation where they are attempting to fire at something they cannot “see”, without the aid of Sniper Shot or a similar ability, the GM is certainly encouraged to add a number of setback dice to the check to reflect the negative circumstances (in this case, the inability to see the target).
Arrakus, I think that answers your question about shooting what you can't see when your weapon range is passed your sensor range. And I'm super not interested in what a developer believes the intention " should " be. These are rules they are the internal logic of the game. It's not "rules as interpreted" it's "rules as written". I don't want to just interpret things, because based on interpretation I could get the rules as written wrong. Like I mentioned in an above post what about the lethal blows talent adding +10 crit to any critical rolls inflicted on opponents, should I interpret this as only meant for non-starship/vehicle combat? This talent specifies whether or not it applies to starship/vehicle combat as much as Sniper Shot does. That is simply just another example of the uncertainty of language in another talent within the Sharpshooter tree.
Overall I am not interested playing a rule set where I am expected to assume a rule says something that it doesn't, nor will I play like that. Since there are other examples from developers that allow Sniper Shot to be used with starship/vehicle combat, as well as examples of talents that specifically call out "non-starship/vehicle combat" within the same Sharpshooter talent tree, I am not going to assume a rule should be played a certain way due to omission. In conclusion until there is some errata that says personal scale talents aren't do be used with starship/vehicle combat by default, or that Sniper Shot specifically is only to be used for "non-thrown, non-starship/vehicle ranged combat" I am going to play the way the rule is written, and use Sniper Shot for all non-thrown ranged combat including starship/vehicle combat.
I don't see how Max Brooke's answer contradicts Sam Stewart's, as I don't read it as saying the sniper shot talent cones from anything other than the attachment. But it's down to how individual groups want to play it.
Doughnut, vehicles take Critical hits and people take critical injuries. (See the appropriate advantage tables) Lethal Blows specifically adds to injury rolls.