Well, why does Diana Stanley's PS get a bad rap then? JB and HS PS get cool points for thematic reasons, but nothing for Diana (cost-wise those PS are all 5 Clues, I would actually consider doing Diana's for the benefit)

You have a point. And it got me thinking that I bet Diana is a LOT more beneficial to those that play with all expansions, which by my experience, is Speed Horror. By your own past words (paraphrased), you sacrifice Monster Surges for double-speed Doom Tokens. Which means Diana is grabbing San/Stam every turn. How fast does your Terror Track move? Does Diana ever get enough Clues to do anything before your games hit the two-minute warning?

2 gate trophies by doom 6 is modest . 2 gate trophies is normally minimum 6 turns and you're not even sealing them (assuming she can reach the second gate from the first in one movement), and 6 turns tends to equal 6 doomers regularly. Pass Reward? Very meh. Early days with DH, I was getting caught with too many gates open, after adding BGotW, I've made a point to jump in someone always early, too many gates open hasn't been an issue since. DH + IH already give you +1 gate limit, if you find yourself needing +2, you're doing something very wrong.

I think I may have covered this. You play everything (well-documented); I do not (should be fairly well-documented). I may have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure I don't get Martial Law declared until Turn 10 or so. While I may still get games that play as you have stated, usually I can score a couple of monster surges in the early game. And since I NEVER have your free IH + DH +1 gate limit, I don't mind acquiring one for myself.

Avi_dreader said:

Astute observation. Many of the investigators were 5 or so off one way or the other and I think you picked out the reason. Since Emily (and the majority of others I play with) always turns everyone into a monster killer so she can run for Deputy, I'm more likely to turn everyone into a sneaky git. For most investigators killing monsters is a turn waster. Those that have a side benefit from killing are among my favorites though.

Luke is the most lovecraftian investigator in the game. I love his backstory. But.... I've played him over and over and never ever consider him a benefit. He might generate 6 clues in a game and usually seals 1 gate fairly early on, though it usally takes him 2 trips through the other world, but then flounders.

jgt7771 said:

Terror is still a fairly unknown quantity. Mythos cards might be the main culprit for them (from text), followed by vortices and Outskirts overflow (so-so on which occurs more). I would say I tend to hit around 4 quite regularly though. Barring GOO or Herald that comboes with Terror, it can hit 10 for all I care, keeping it low isn't part of my game plan at all, there is no benefit to be had, other than a boost in score, which I count as an afterthought.

As for "Speed Horror", to me, there is much more tension in the game when you know every move has to count. If each investigator can spend 4-5 turns just visiting places for fun, for me the game would lose most of the tension, because I would not get the feeling of inevitable doom that the faster moving doom track provides.

jgt7771 said:

Turn 10 is still pushing it for Kate. She starts with 2 Clues, say 2 turns to get to 5, 3 in the OW, then 3 in another OW, you can seal 1 and close 1 just on turn 9ish. And she'll have had no delayed anywhere along the line (Elder Signs, Marie, etc. might buy her more time, but can't really count on them).

On monster surges, well, if you're getting those, that means less gates open, doesn't it . Too many gates shouldn't be a problem. Of course, I go with 4 investigators standard, so don't know how a larger party and a lower gate limit will shift things.

As for "Speed Horror", to me, there is much more tension in the game when you know every move has to count. If each investigator can spend 4-5 turns just visiting places for fun, for me the game would lose most of the tension, because I would not get the feeling of inevitable doom that the faster moving doom track provides.

By no means am I knocking Speed Horror (Tension Horror?). Obviously you thoroughly enjoy it, as do many others. (Go, Versatility!) It's just not necessarily conducive to a gaming night set aside for others who want to get away from [screaming kids] or [wives] or [what have you] and drink and chat and eat the Fried Skin of Pork.

On monster surges, well, if you're getting those, that means less gates open, doesn't it . Too many gates shouldn't be a problem. Of course, I go with 4 investigators standard, so don't know how a larger party and a lower gate limit will shift things.

Oh come on! We spent the first 4-5 turns just visiting places for fun! We have too-many-open-gates problems just like everyone else!

Tension is in the eye of the beholder?

You're pinching your eyes together now, aren't you?

jgt7771 said:

::Laughter:: first of all, you really should have some sort of objective subjective system ;') Make your grading criteria clear from the start. Second, I wanted to respond to these in particular, since I thought they were the most objectionable.

You're right, Kate should probably be bumped up a bit (I hate her so much I just didn't give it too much thought and went on to the next investigator), however, keep in mind that unless you get a search of the spell deck, there are only two arcane insights in there. Not great odds. There are *4* extremely useful items for pete in the unique deck (and a number of fairly useful ones) and of course, the two Old Journals in the common item deck. They don't come out *every* game you play him, but I see one of them pretty frequently (maybe every other game). Vincent is still not very impressive with feeding the mind, you're much better off with a real spell caster having healing...

I don't understand why you would have a clue generator defeated, I always make sure investigators with lots of clues are properly equipped before entering gates or fighting monsters. Team effort! And if on the off chance, luck strikes against you, that's why you draw madness or injury :') not just because it's so much fun.

Okay... I'll explain Luke in a bit more detail. If there is a very soft gate out, I'll usually leave it open for him, just so he'll have an easy Other World entry point (unless it's off in the middle of nowhere—another town, in which case I'll sometimes have him shut it ASAP, or give the task and sometimes the gate box too to a higher speed investigator— since he'd have to limp back to town if no other gates were around). I don't understand why you wouldn't think Luke would occasionally seal gates on the way out. It's just he should also be sent to other worlds for no purpose other than clue gathering (and of course, you can have him incidentally snipe off a rare low frequency gate almost as soon as it opens if you're using him properly). You need to play to his strengths, not to his weakness.

He is slow and weak in the real world, but as fast and powerful as anyone in the Other Worlds, Luke, The matrix has you! Seriously though. Clues, monster/gate sniping, teleportation, brute strength, a passable and decent PS, high sanity, what's not to like? Oh, and did I mention clues?

mageith said:

Have you tried teleporting him into active towns to pick up a large stock of clue tokens for one turn then hop back into a gate for sealing if you don't have enough resources? It's also important to leave open an easy gate for him so he can fully exploit the power of the gate box. He's not a supporting character by the way, he *needs* to be properly equipped with stat boosting items and good weapons, since he's not going to successfully evade monsters. Anyways, I'm always happy when I draw him. He's one of my favorite tier two characters.

jgt7771 said:

So your thinking is that stars aligning for investigators doesn't make them reliable/good.
You mentioned that the only one-up Amanda has on Minh Thi is the one skill without additional investment (Each player gets 1 skill so Amanda only gets one more). Please tell me how in a variety of draws, not a perfect draw, out of a decent-sized skill deck that Amanda will be on better footing than Minh's:

+1 Common Item
+1 Sanity
+1 Speed
+1 Clue + King in Yellow

+$3
(I think Minh's PS is better but we don't have to count that)

The skills (Remember you only get 1 without further investments) that I don't think is better than Minh's advantages: (Bravery, Expert Occultist, Luck, Sneak, Speed, Conceal, Dodge, Fisticuffs, Library Use, Mystic Gift, Spot Hidden, Strong Will, Ancient Language, Disguise, Listen, Martial Arts, Run).

Keep in mind that these skills are useful, but not better than Minh's advantages.

That's 51% chance if you pool all the skill cards together, or 50% chance if you use base only, that her extra skill will place her lower than Minh.

The other skills that gives bonuses to will, evades, are debatable, but at best they are equal with those advantages (I'd say they aren't because clues are more valuable and requires time and risks to obtain them).

The skills that I do think might be better than those advantages: (Marksman, Stealth, Grapple, Hide, Mythos Lore, Endurance, Mental Fortitude, Wrestle) 23% chance pooled together, 20% chance in base only.

With those probabilities, Minh is better than Amanda under most circumstances.

Mage: Luke is the most lovecraftian investigator in the game. I love his backstory. But.... I've played him over and over and never ever consider him a benefit. He might generate 6 clues in a game and usually seals 1 gate fairly early on, though it usally takes him 2 trips through the other world, but then flounders.

Avi: Have you tried teleporting him into active towns to pick up a large stock of clue tokens for one turn then hop back into a gate for sealing if you don't have enough resources? It's also important to leave open an easy gate for him so he can fully exploit the power of the gate box. He's not a supporting character by the way, he *needs* to be properly equipped with stat boosting items and good weapons, since he's not going to successfully evade monsters. Anyways, I'm always happy when I draw him. He's one of my favorite tier two characters

From your other responses, It sounds like you are one of those solo players. In our group of real people, "needy" investigators like Luke are given short shrift. In other words we say to investigators, "If you can't bring it, don't come." Still they come.

So luke doesn't usually get the weapons he needs. Walking around in a bathrobe and a mask doesn't bring a lot of sympathy. We actually have one regular who's philsophy is if I don't know you, I won't trade with you until you save my life. If he doesn't end up with a townie, he won't even talk to you. And Emily is just Emily, the deputy, who just can't have enough guns. "You just never know."

Once he seals his opening gate, he now has to hunt for clues or money or wade through monsters to get to another gate. On a really good day, under our "you're on your on" system, he's really lucky to get a second gate sealed.

I play with a large number of players and only 2 of them are really team players (besides myself, of course.) If you've seen the move "The Mist", you'll have an idea.

mzonic said:

Whew. Now that's zeal. Very impressive. I can't defeat your math, and estimating with cards is just too daunting a task. Even Vincent can be a god with the right cards.

But you're right: Minh has better odds of getting better cards by virtue of the fact that she draws more of them. Wait. Doesn't she have the same odds of drawing worse cards too? And Amanda draws 3 skills, picks 2. I'm no statistician, but doesn't that increase that 50% somewhat? How often does Amanda lose those skills (sit down, Glaaki!), versus how often anyone loses items? Even the great King in Yellow goes away after use, and that's just one seal.

But that's the same argument I used last time, which means I'm being circular (not to mention devastatingly vague next to your visual aids), and that would never win a debate. Both Investigators are fairly close together on the list, so like Gloria-Jim, I could easily concede a switch.

But is this about raising Minh higher (how high?)...or about slamming Amanda?

jgt7771 said:

By no means am I knocking Speed Horror (Tension Horror?). Obviously you thoroughly enjoy it, as do many others. (Go, Versatility!) It's just not necessarily conducive to a gaming night set aside for others who want to get away from [screaming kids] or [wives] or [what have you] and drink and chat and eat the Fried Skin of Pork.

Food and drink have of course been banned when gaming around here, since, ummm, forever. Didn't even need to have a spillage incident to put it in, it sorta came with the territory, as in, we're here to game, not drink and eat.

jgt7771 said:

Lolly-gagging your way into problems ? To me, just doesn't feel like the world is about to end, if the investigators have oodles of spare time to prance around.

@Mageith

Yeeeeaaaaahhhh... Arkham Horror is actually a team game. Whether I play solo or with others, I always place the principle of cooperation above all others. Unless I draw one of Nyarlathotep's sinister plot cards, in which case, you're on your own ;'D Your group's playing style doesn't detract from Luke's power, it just means that you're underutilizing him.

Honestly, if I was playing with someone who refused to cooperate multiple times, I would probably stop playing with them ;') granted, I believe one of your non-cooperators is your daughter, so, that's probably not going to work for you.

jgt7771 said:

Slam Amanda Slam!

I never said Minh had to draw extra skills. All I'm talking about is their starting equipment. (In addition, I'm not bringing Minh's ability and PS into the debate, yet).

Everyone gets 1 skill at startup. Amanda gets 2 skills.

The first skill that Amanda gets doesn't count because everyone has the same odds of getting a good/bad skill. What I am saying is that the EXTRA skill that Amanda gets over other investigators, specifically Minh, will not make her better than Minh most of the time.

Because Amanda and Minh are decently similar, this extra skill at start-up has to make up for all the extra stuff that Minh has over her. Most of the time, this is not the case.

I hope I made it clear...

I'm all for playing with Amanda, but she is a huge handicap to the team and even the game hates her (Pass vs Fail PS). You can place them wherever, but Minh should be higher than Amanda. Amanda should be closer to the bottom, maybe slightly above weak Speed 3 investigators.

Amanda has potential only if you heavily invest in her or if she gets really lucky with her start-up skills. I just wish that she was more like Lola. If the game was chill, say with Azathoth and I got time to get myself a retainer or two, I might let Amanda burn through the skill deck so she'd have 4-5 skills (Then she's amazing). But I'm not counting on Amanda when the world is on the brink of destruction.

Minh Thi Phan (aka Minty Fun ) is on my top-3 list, coming in at #3 (can't touch Mary or Trish). She gets a Tome herself and if she's in a game, those pathetic, almost worthless/useless Tomes that other investigators might start with suddenly seem very promising. Just 2 more Tomes and she gets her pick of Ally (from available of course). Could mean turn 2 Rice-Rice-baby (hmm, pun intended or not ). If Minh passes her PS, she'll have a permanent Voice of Ra on her. Her other ability requires a bit more timing, but it's not hard to get that "Voice of Ra" to another investigator for a turn here and there.

Dam, you can fail Trish's personal story before you get a turn if you have Father Dagon as the herald. It's happened to me, I wasn't pleased.

mzonic said:

As I said earlier, I'm never disappointed to draw Minh and always disappointed to draw Amanda. However, according to the stats report Amanda is not a "huge handicap" or even a handicap at all. She's on the winning team 64% of the time, the 17the best (almost the bottom of the top 3rd). Minh is better at 68% and 10th. We really don't need anyone to tell us how utterly average the Arkham Average Girl is, but someone to explain why she's around so much when the team wins. And while they are at it, explain Mark Harrigan at #9, Daisy at #35 (low than Jim Culver) and Hank, Tommy and Trish in the bottom 7. (Probably because they are playing against Innsmouth).

If Amanda could pick her skills (ie. her classes like any college student), what skills would you pick?

mageith said:

You mean aside from Mythos Lore? (That would be an awesome university course, by the way. On the other hand, I doubt there are many syllabi that include topics like "Intro to Bravery.")

@Avi

Yeeeeaaaaahhhh... Arkham Horror is actually a team game. Whether I play solo or with others, I always place the principle of cooperation above all others.

And that becomes a discussion around here.

Honestly, if I was playing with someone who refused to cooperate multiple times, I would probably stop playing with them ;') granted, I believe one of your non-cooperators is your daughter, so, that's probably not going to work for you.

Is it better to have Deputy Emily keep the shotgun, "just in case" or "lend" it to Luke just about to go into a strange other world? Someone is going to have to give up a turn besides in most cases.

If you think that is touchy, just try to pry her hand(s) loose from a Gladius of Carcosa. When one is playing by oneself, the decision is pretty easy and always correct. I'd rather play with real people when I get the chance.

avec said:

Psych 101? ROTC?

I want the Miskatonic U sweat shirt that reads: "Metaphysical Ed."

I think part of the problem with Amanda is that skills are way overpriced. As long as everyone gets one, its not very noticable. But when a non magic user gets Master Occultist, we let them turn it back for another random. Granted, maybe that's just the card that could turn some investigator's life around.

Skills cost $8 and for that you get a choice of two (3 if Amanda). Or for 10 trophy points you get a choice of 11 or so different allies and many of the allies give 3 different gifts. And even with that, buying an ally around here is only slightly more common that turning up Velma's Gratitude condition card. After Emily buys her way into law enforcement, the rest of our collective trophy points are spent on clues at the Science building and the occasional blessing.

mageith said:

Okay, maybe I got a little carried away. She's A handicap. I'm still convinced that from a start-up equipment/stat/ability perspective, she's very poor.

Now having that said, I don't think you can take the statistics as a hard fact (Maybe Tibs can enlighten us on this). I think the stats started from the beginning and old investigators are recorded and used way more than newer investigator. The difficulty of the game also changed since the beginning. I think that a lot of us will find a pure base game with no gate burst, no crazy devourings, no real tough AOs, manageable. But as you add more boards and the newer encounters and heralds, the game difficulty shot up. I think this helps to explain why as a general trend the newer investigators perform worse than older investigators. I don't think Kingsport is harder than Innsmouth, but it is by 1% on the stats. I think this is because Innsmouth came out relatively recently and not as much games has been recorded. If you give it some time, Innsmouth would probably surpass Kingsport.

But what is interesting is that you see some new and old investigators breaking that trend, namely Patrice and Vincent. I think this gives evidence that Patrice is extremely powerful whereas Vincent is extremely the suck.

But perhaps what can be an argument for Amanda is that she's not good but she isn't that bad either. Players can still use her to win games. Maybe she'll slip further down the ranks in time, or she won't.

If I can pick any 2 skills for Amanda it'll probably be Mythos Lore and Wrestle. Free clues are good for any investigator, and Wrestle will give her 5 fight. Fight is probably the most important skill in the game and is useful all the way to Final Combat.

mageith said:

We make skills more desirable by lowering the cost to $7 and giving people a choice of three (five for Amanda). Still not too many takers, but at least the risk/benefit ratio is more in line with the shops.

mzonic said:

I think Amanda is about the most average investigator you can get. Sanitiy/Endurance & Attributes - all of them are average. This means she's never the best at anything but she'll also never be the worst at anything. For me the best thing about her is that she'll never end up being a liability, no matter what AO is in play. I quite like to have her in my team if I cannot think of another investigator that would be 'perfect'.

I even picked her for my team in the 2008 League because I figured she'd be the easiest to adapt to the varying and often conflicting goals. Unfortunately, she was devoured about halfway through the league, but that wasn't her fault!

Luke has raised in my appreciation since without him, I'd probably still try to defeat Cthulhu in scenario 9 (2008) which has been the most difficult I've played so far. As it was, his ability to close and/or seal the right gates at the exactly the right time was crucial for winning the game. I'm not sure he'll be as useful in general, though.

I was excited by Mark Harrigan and Tony Morgan when I first saw them. Played a game with them, and realized that Harrigan is just a weaker McGlen, while Tony could never get off the ground because he didn't start with a weapon.

Jack Balfour said:

I don't really mind which one the pair I get, if I get either that is. Mark's got the whole no arrest (yeah, right) or delay (nice). Michael's Strong Body doesn't really impact that much, he usually blazes everything down on the first combat check anyway.

If you think that Mark is a weaker McGlenn, you're just not playing Mark to his fullest. The fact is, McGlenn and Harrigan *should* be played rather differently.

I know that Harrigan starts with 2 weapons, has a bunch of stamina and is "the soldier" but he's really not a fighter. Really. His best bet is to try to get his hands on a motorcyle or map (though you can make due without it), and use his rather good sneak/speed slider to get into gates and such. Not being delayed is a nice boost, and not being arrested is fantastic in Innsmouth. His will and sanity are really too weak for consistent fighting, and his Story card doesn't help him enough in that department, where McGlenn's Story card really helps compensate for his weaknesses.

Mark is a gate closer, through and through, his high fight might look nice for moster killing, but that means that mark can close the difficult gates without much problem. Immune to delay helps him in gates a lot, and if you have some effect that lets you predict the Mythos (arcane insight, or some encounters) you can actually send him to the place the gate is going to open, get sucked in, *not* be delayed, and basically save yourself 1 turn in a gate, which is pretty cool.

Most of the time when I play Mark I give away his flamethrower and keep the molotov in case I need it, sometimes I'll trade the flamethrower for a derringer or other semi-weak one handed weapon so that I can have something (and derringer + molotov is pretty good for one fight) if I need it. Go to the general store first turn or so and hope to hit a map/motorcycle/cloak and afterwards (whether I get it or not) grab a couple of clues and sneak my way into a gate.

Very well put, awp832. Mark is not Infantry...he's Special Forces. Very adept at the Art of Not Being Seen, and Not Getting Caught.

Still, I just have the worst luck with him. The problem with Mark is that, when he's playing to his strengths, he's fantastic...but the moment he "gets caught", Mark's gonna end up catatonic. There's not much of a Plan B to Mark, besides "pick up the pieces and start over."