I sure hope that if this was to be an impartial decision based on dice rolling, that the dice used were not X-Wing dice ...

And the dispute was about...???

It was about whether or not a ship was in range or not the argument being that the ship was in arc but not in range. The dispute arose because two ships where facing each other and had parallel edges and one of them had a higher pilot skill so that ship shot first and it was decided then between me and the other player that their was no shoot but when it got to the ships turn with lower pilot skill their was suddenly a argument to be made that their was a shoot and that the ship was indeed in range (I was the player with the higher pilot skill). like i said the argument was unimportant to me and i would have been fine with any decision the judge made as long as it was not one made with a dice roll.

As a premier level TO, let me explain and rule here for you.

There is primarily a class of disagreements in which the TO simply cannot rule correctly; disagreements about information that cannot be verified unless you are physically present to see the state of affairs before the disagreement. For example, 2 players suddenly start disagreeing about how much health a ship should have. It's both players responsibility to maintain that state information and unless a TO is present the entire game, they simply will not know this. A die roll is the only fair option here.

So this is similar to what you are describing. Two players agreed on the game state at an earlier point then disagreed later; the TO cannot know what was stated or agreed prior to coming to the table. However, this is different in that the TO can simply measure for the attack immediately upon attending the table. Regardless what was agreed upon earlier, the new measurement/check would be immediately valid. This is where your TO made a mistake. They should have checked range and arc and made an immediate ruling, disregarding any prior agreement.

This is why it's not easy being a TO and why I am looking forward to the official judge program.

Yes, and without an official judge program stating you are a "premier level TO" is an empty resume.

Yes, and without an official judge program stating you are a "premier level TO" is an empty resume.

Wow that was... hmm. Away from the forums briefly and I find that nothing has changed.

A little and cheap laser can help a lot. I saw guys playing FoW use it, you can buy a cheap one under 10 euros or a good one 30-40. Quite useful. The capacity to know, naked eye, if a target is in arc with rocks, ships and a Gozanti in the LoS is not a minor one. The eye can do some tricks, laser.not. And this is SW !!! And a Laser !!!

About range, a few times you must toss a coin. A milimeter up or down...imposible.

A little and cheap laser can help a lot. I saw guys playing FoW use it, you can buy a cheap one under 10 euros or a good one 30-40. Quite useful. The capacity to know, naked eye, if a target is in arc with rocks, ships and a Gozanti in the LoS is not a minor one. The eye can do some tricks, laser.not. And this is SW !!! And a Laser !!!

About range, a few times you must toss a coin. A milimeter up or down...imposible.

NakedDex, on 21 Feb 2016 - 6:27 PM, said:

Panax, on 21 Feb 2016 - 5:58 PM, said:

If three people can't determine if a ship has a shot or not then the answer is obviously no. You don't need a die roll. Plus sounds like your two faced opponent needed punched in their throat

It's a game where plastic space ships are pushed around a table. Nobody in that scenario ever needs to be punched in the throat.

If I could invent a time machine, I'd go back to exactly when Hozier started writing "Take me to the church" and throat punch him. I think that would be justified.

This happens with cheap one. Mine is from an unknown asian manufacturer. But a good one about 40 euros is much more accurate. Mine sucks, but it is still useful.

If there was an agreement over the fact that two parallel ships didn't have a shot because they were out of range when the higher PS ship's turn was to shoot, i would just assume that one of the ships must have been accidentally moved in between, and that the initial compromise of no shot in both directions has to be respected.

Either way the OP is right. If you are a judge you need to have the balls to make a call here. Why roll a die here when you can avoid it.

There's two interesting things to consider. One is specific to this case:

The judge is not there to rule if the ships were previously in range of one another. Maybe they were, and the players mistakenly agreed they weren't. Doesn't matter. The judge is there to determine if they are currently in range of one another. And if, after appropriate measurements have been taken, it is impossible to determine with any degree of certainty, then it is only fair to resolve the issue with a die roll.

The other thing to consider is only tangentially related: If your opponent were flying a swarm, and after two moves where each ship had performed identical maneuvers, one of his ships was visibly out of formation, would you assume that the ship had been accidentally nudged and return it to it's "rightful" place in the formation? Or are you obligated to play the field as it lays? And do you think the one situation is related to the other?

They should have checked range and arc and made an immediate ruling,

It's important to note that if, after measuring, they were unable to determine if the shot was in range then a die roll/coin toss is an acceptable way to resolve the issue.

I agree with you here OP - I would have been severely dissapointed if that happened to me and further more I'd be calling in to question this person's capability as a judge to the TO...

The case (to me) is quite clear cut...

If at the higher PS pilot's turn you measured and because it was really on the cusp you decided that "no, there is no shoot there" and you both mutually agreed then - as long as no other post shooting movement has occurred - the lower PS should NOT have a shot.

For me, the judge is there to listen to both sides of the story, look at the state of play on the board and then make a decision. If i wanted to roll dice i'd do it myself.

If there was an agreement over the fact that two parallel ships didn't have a shot because they were out of range when the higher PS ship's turn was to shoot, i would just assume that one of the ships must have been accidentally moved in between, and that the initial compromise of no shot in both directions has to be respected.

Either way the OP is right. If you are a judge you need to have the balls to make a call here. Why roll a die here when you can avoid it.

There's two interesting things to consider. One is specific to this case:

The judge is not there to rule if the ships were previously in range of one another. Maybe they were, and the players mistakenly agreed they weren't. Doesn't matter. The judge is there to determine if they are currently in range of one another. And if, after appropriate measurements have been taken, it is impossible to determine with any degree of certainty, then it is only fair to resolve the issue with a die roll.

The other thing to consider is only tangentially related: If your opponent were flying a swarm, and after two moves where each ship had performed identical maneuvers, one of his ships was visibly out of formation, would you assume that the ship had been accidentally nudged and return it to it's "rightful" place in the formation? Or are you obligated to play the field as it lays? And do you think the one situation is related to the other?

That's why i said in the part that you cut out of the quote that this can absolutely be ruled as a missed opportunity.

However, it's incredibly lame of the OP's adversary to go and remeasure after a compromise had been found beforehand that they were not in range, Then it's even lamer that he actually wants to shoot and deny the shot to the OP this way that he should have had. And finally, if they really were out of range beforehand, and now they are not, i would assume that the opponent must have moved the ship by accident or intentionally. In both cases we are getting dangerously close to plain cheating, because those small toy ships didn't grow tiny engines last i checked!

And if the judge was worth any grain of salt, he should have realized that and have ruled in favor of the OP that if there was no shot before when they checked, there is no shot now, and if there is, either a miracle must have happened in between or some game piece was manipulated, by accident or not!

I guess there are the judges that would stick to the rules by the letter, and there are those that try to understand what has been going on and make a fair call. And then there are those that don't give a **** and just roll a die...

I find the first and second judge acceptable, but not the third, unless there is a really really good reason to roll a die!