So I was talking to someone I used to play UFS with all the time (many of you at Worlds will have also played him) and he says that he MISSES the Gray/Green wars of old. Having never played a deck like tha, I wouldn't know how a deck like it plays, but does anyone else feel the same way? I know I don't, although I must admit, it would be nice to have a slightly larger element of control implemented into NewFS. There are a few controlling cards in the format (Devil Gene, Ka Technique, Rashotep etc), but putting it the way I was told, the game feels slightly more... brainless than it did before. It's a lot more about the deckbuilding and having the right cards earlier now than it was before. In Block 3, it almost felt like a chess game, in that you were waiting for your opponent to have a streak of terrible luck and/or screw up a turn before you went in for the kill.

Everyone is aware that the game is far more aggro-aligned than it is toward control. Thinking on it, it is difficult to state how to play control effectively within this current format. Not knowing how Quest For Souls affects the meta, of course, there isn't much to go on. The more obvious control characters and their support look to be Rashotep, Kazuya, and arguably Nightmare/Zhao Daiyu. Siegfried implements levels of anti-control through control itself, but they're all more often than not better as aggresive characters than controlling ones, with most of their effects requiring damage to be dealth before their effects can occur (Ka Technique, No Forgiveness, Twilight Embrace, Destruction In His Wake etc). There are a few cards that would constitute being controlling without being aggressive (Devil Gene, Controller Of Souls etc)

And so I begin to wonder... what is control? What designates a card as a control card? Discard? Cancellation? Control Check Manipulation? Card commital? Card Blanking? Filling your opponent's card pool? Card destruction?

How would you guys like to see control put back into UFS, if at all? What sort of cards bring a larger element of control back to UFS, without tightening the leash on aggro so much it becomes unplayable as it once did? What old cards are fair game for control players but bypassable for aggro players? Is there an element of control that has yet to be explored that could be more useful? I do not in any way want to see UFS revert to it's Block 3 state (**** Cutting Edge...), but I do also agree that it's a little single-minded at the moment, and that there isn't much left for true control players to be rewarded for playing. I would not have classed my Worlds/Nats Donovan deck as a control deck, but other people may have done.

What do you think?

Control is already in B4. The thing is, it's not "I prevent you from doing anything until I can kill you." It really is "control" - you control the pace until you hit that sweet spot where you're comfortable.

Control is Cursed Blood, Intolerant of failure, card pool clogging, demon slayer, blanking, turning upside down.

Discard/Nina is also a specific type of control.

I dont miss things like No Memories and other cards that you just turn sideways and say "no".

Control still exists in B4. Right now, it's a whole bunch of Siegfried/Rashotep/King support, aka Earth symbol.

Grey Wars still exist.

5 out of my 6 sets during my store championship were Earth vs Earth. That is the matchup where you will see massive control in B4. Those games reminded me of the chess games that we played back in B3, although not as mind-melting. I enjoy it because it isn't hardcore control like B3, namely a few such as Blood Runs True and negation.

Shaneth said:

This is a ridiculous amount of foundations.

Hence why Nightmare.

Can Nightmare really compete with that tho?

Tower of Remembrance - Encounter is probably the best bet.

Shaneth said:

Depends on how hes built i would say.....hes got Encounter, I Presense, Vengeance, Knight Breaker, Etc... to destroy foundations so hes a really good control character as well since we are on the topic

But yes sometimes i do miss the days of old considering there are times when i know my opponent is going to kill me and there isnt anything i can do about it and at least before if you were playing a controlish deck you at least had some say in what happens during your opponents kill turn and it did feel more like you had to think every move through

but in a way im glad that its gone because it makes for a better enviorment for everyone and newer players can get in without feeling overwhelmed and they can actually have fun in games

Its always better to lose to turn 3 or 4 aggro then to a turn 15 turtling deck at least IMO

Shaneth said:

Hunger for Souls is crazy stupid. It's like Kazuya in a can.

Nightmare is a pretty good aggro control char.. we have a guy that is able to keep us at a maximum of 5-6 cards usually less.

Controll.. well they can add controll to the game as long as they don't add cards like chesters-rejection-no memories etc.. controll should have some risks

like being very expensive or like things do now.. they go boom after used (memories that stain it's armor, intollerant of failure).

I can agree that a few more risks needs to come back into the game, right now Astrid and maybe lu-chen the only ones that presents a risk for the opponent when they go for attack

Mordai said:

Nightmare might as well be called Nukemare. I've seen games where the maximum number of gray cards that were on the table was two. The guy is extremely underrated in my opinion.

To the OP: No. Nobody sane misses that format. It sucked. Even Vik quit because it got so stale, and he was one of the Void-Dhalsim posterboys.

We get one serious, hard control card and it will lead to decks that rely on getting that card out and just going LOLNO all day, which flat out ruins this game. The permanence of foundations is such a curse.

I haven't played since GenCon (or bought more stuff for that matter T_T ) so I really don't know as much as I would like about the current ways things are. But I'll make an analogy with a fighting game, in BlazBlue, theres a character that controls wind (Rachael), she's squishy and direct attacks are kinda bad, but thats how control in a fighting game should work, its aggressive manipulation and control so that you opponent has to just take it. Its not making the game a stand still, but openning your opponent up to getting smacked around or right where you want them. As long as control REQUIRES fighting, then I am fine, happy, and will encourage it. Now one likes staring at each other waiting to die, at least I'd like to go down flailing and take as much out with me >

Control does indeed exist, although it's no longer the Universal Negation we had to endure prior to early Rotation...

Control is...foundation destruction, stun and commital, damage negation, keyword cancelation, and life gain. Control is also "Lu Chen Cardpool Shenanigans", hand control aka discard, as well as foundation blanking.

Control is very much present in NewFS, it's just different.

Thank God it's different...for realz!!!

Zhao Daiyu can very easily play control with her attack and some foundation removal support ala cursed blood and I-failure. People arent playing her for some reason (she really is quite good), but it can be done.

Protoaddict said:

Mostly because they look at her character and figure they could be playing someone else. Honestly, if I play a character, I don't want to play a character who's there just for his symbol spread and stats - I want the abilities to be useful. My Zhao build (which... is lacking Zhao Daiyu uncommons - I'm not kidding) does rely on her R somewhat, but mostly as a tool to outright screw the opponent over.

Although I'm thinking of something quite nasty with her... Hm hm hm hm hm hm.

I wouldn't mind one shot control like Yoga Adept coming back.

One shot control.

Not with those symbols I wouldn't.

You call that a grey war, Shane? I thought the term referred to control vs. control in a very block 3 Evil sort of way.

Example, since you have a Chester's out, I can't play my kill turn until I get my Chesters out, etc.

In that match you pictured, Paul was never going to out-control Rashotep (I believe?) so he might as well just attack or risk dying anyways. I am going out on a limb and saying that match ended in favor of Rashotep? The reason people only play foundations and few attacks is consistency, but the real reason this happens is because people don't want/care to adjust. Since it works (sometimes) then cool. But Paul? I'm confused...

Also as far as yoga adept, it doesn't NEGATE the effects of the discarded card. i.e. a block is still blocked. Its like a action cursed blood, which is fine.

Also cards like Demon Slayer are amazing. Twice at our store championship i found myself discarding it during its own enhance phase to eat up the effects of one of my opponents cards (as well as to prevent a block + reversal)

guitalex2008 said:

It's not Rasho, it's King. With 6 attacks.

Smazzurco said:

Homme Chapeau said:

guitalex2008 said:

If Shane's taking the picture, yeah most likely.