Is it this marginal, or is it just me?

Among my group of players, stealth is easily the least used skill. Drawing a stealth-related skill card at character setup amounts to a groan-inducing disappointment. (Well, not really, but almost.)

Stealth as implemented in the base game is, in my opinion, flawed design, and while I appreciate later additions like elusive monsters and the Innsmouth curfew (haven't played it yet, though), none of these really address the problem at its core.

Before we start, let's talk about probabilities. It seems accepted amongst AH players that Lore 4 investigators don't make good casters. Why? Because since most spells have a -1 modifier, the chance of casting failure at Lore 4 makes it too unreliable to depend on. For the record, these are the chances of success per dice, without blessings or bells and whistles:

1 die - 33%

2 dice - 55%

3 dice - 70%

4 dice - 80%

5 dice - 87%

As you can see, (and most likely know already) 4 dice are pretty much the magic number for successful skill checks. With less than 3, you shouldn't attempt them voluntarily, unless you're willing (and able) to burn clue tokens.

Now, how does this relate to stealth/evade checks?

First, you have to take speed into account. It takes a minimum of Speed 3 to move from one location to a location in a different neigborhood. If you want to sneak by a monster with less than that, it pretty much means you either ended your previous turn in the street, or you'll end this one in it. Either way, you passed one chance to pick up a clue or have a beneficial encounter.

Related to that, you have to take focus into account. A high Stealth doesn't help you much if it takes you multiple turns to switch between an acceptable sneaking chance, and enough speed to actually go somewhere. (Hello, Ashcan Pete!) Focus 1 characters are pretty much crippled when it comes to sneaking about.

Third, there's the monsters, obviously. More than half of them are -2 or worse. So the odds are actually worse than those of spell checks. Additionally, if you fail, you get an auto-hit, your movement ends, and you still have to fight. Since you usually don't try to sneak past monsters you have a decent chance of beating, failing an Evade check means a trip to the hospital more often than not. And even if you successfully evade, the monster remains on the board and has to be taken care of eventually.

With all these factors combined, the requirements for successful Stealth are extremely prohibitive. There are barely a handful of characters that can attempt it on a regular basis. (Wendy, obviously. Joe Diamond and Rita Young. From Innsmouth, Finn and Trish.) And even those would be better of with at least one more Speed or Stealth item or skill.

And since the prerequisites are so high, a slight bonus is often equivalent to a wasted point. An investigator with a speed/stealth spread of 3/5 is nowhere near in utility to one with 5/3, despite both being equivalent in the character creator. Speed is one of the most important skills, but it effectiveness doesn't increase linearly (sp?). Max speed 3 is similarily crippling to Focus 1, while the increase from 4 to 5 is a huge boost in effective mobility. 5 to 6 is nice, but not nearly as pronounced.

Before I continue on with a discussion of possible house rules to address this point, I'd first like to hear your opinions. Is it this bad? Or is my group overlooking something?

It's part of the fun of Arkham. If you're not willing to voluntarily make a check with fewer than 4 dice in the pool, then you're missing out on the suspense. I don't see how 4 is the magic number: with 2 dice, you have a higher than 50/50 chance. With 3 dice you have a higher than 2:3 chance.

I constantly have to get past monsters to reach important locations, or evade monsters that appear that I can't reasonably defeat. Often, I calculate that I have a higher chance of evading a monster than beating it, even if my chances to evade are very low. We welcome sneak- or evade-based skill cards openly. It's cards that help you cast spells (Expert Occultist, Mystic Gift) and the Run skill (makes Speed checks easier to beat without actually increasing your movement points) that we prefer not to get.

A Lore of 4 or even 3 is okay to cast spells, as long as it's the right kind of spell: one with a modifier of +0 or +1. The occasional -1 is likely enough to be feasible too.

Arkham is a game of probability management. More dice is definitely better, but you have to ask how low you're willing to go to pull off your scheme, and what to do as a backup if you fail.

Yea evading is SUPER hard. But I always manage to do it, even with awful sneak characters. I spend a few clue tokens here and there and fight the other monsters I really can't sneak past. Then I try to plan ahead where I stand if the monsters are highly likely to move out of the way (moons and so on). If not, and you are standing on a monster I try to make sure I get 1 movement dice and the rest on sneak, that way it's a fair chance to sneak past.

And whenever I see sneak items I try to buy them, because usually when stuff start going bad it's when monsters blocks all paths you want to go to.

I agree with Tibs. I really dont see why you look at 4 as the sweet number (other than to construct an argument to post here with ) - 3 looks more like that (even allowing for modifiers, since clues can offset them). I much prefer to evade monsters than waste all important time, or sanity and health facing them (shub etc not withstanding) - and my win rate (by seals) is high compared to others who play and record their results. Any bonus to my Skills is welcome over spell rerolls or Run, as I will likely get more out of it from encounter cards I face. And, Sneak is tense. Combat, I usually know more what the outcome will be, if Im going to confront IT, Im usually armed enough to know I can beat the odds. With sneakiness, Im more often playing with fire, with failure being very messy. So clues get thrown at sneak rolls more often than many other rolls (eg spells) and thus any help there potentially saves me clues and seals gates more quickly.

Sneak more often, and feel the difference

I picked 4 dice because, as I said, from the relevant threads on this board (and the old one), lore 4/5 seemed to be the accepted difference between a competent caster and one who can't necessarily depend on spells in high-risk situations.

Botching a combat spell is similar to failing an evade check in that it often means a one way trip to the hospital and an injury card. Likewise, even if you still defeat the monster afterwards, you'll have taken a beating. SAN loss for the failed spell, health loss for the failed evade.

I'm not married to that number; my argument still holds true if you find 3 dice perfectly acceptable. How many investigators do you know that have 3 dice against -2 monsters? They'd need Sneak 5 at a slider position where they still have meaningful speed.

A Lore of 4 or even 3 is okay to cast spells, as long as it's the right kind of spell: one with a modifier of +0 or +1. The occasional -1 is likely enough to be feasible too.

Heh. You realise what you just said, do you?

A Sneak of 4 or even 3 is okay to evade monsters, as long as it's the right kind of monster: one with a modifier of +0 or +1. The occasional -1 is likely enough to be feasible too.

If only it were that simple. There are a lot more -2 or worse monsters than there are -2 spells. Sure, you can sneak past Chtonians and Colors. Formless Spawn, Moonbeasts and Shans too, as well as the occasional Dhole, Shoggoth, Star Spawn or Hound. But what about Dark Young? Gugs, Warlocks, Leng Spiders, Ghosts, Star Vampires? how would you feel if half the important spells had -2 or -3 modifiers?

And, of course, only few investigators have Sneak 4 or 3, with enough Speed.

Hannibal Rex said:

I don't mind drawing one sneak skill (particularly if it's on a character who already has a decent sneak). I then look for evade check bonus items while shopping (and will buy them unless there is something else I really need). It can be very beneficial to have a character who doesn't rely on combat to get to places. It lets you concentrate weapons on other characters and it also makes other world travel safer (since you can dodge the random monsters instead of loading up each character like Rambo). I remember not really appreciating how useful sneak could be for my first couple years, but I learned. Eventually :')

15 out of 48 investigators can not get sneak 2 with speed 3. However, 17 investigators can get sneak 2 speed 3. Then 10 with speed 4 sneak 2 or speed 3 sneak 3 Minh, Ashcan, Hank, Mandy, Akachi, Michael, Rex, Dexter, Mark, and Kate. Then Joe, Wilson, Wendy, Rita, Trish, and Finn all have excellent speed/sneak capabilities. In other words, you're usually going to have at least one investigator who can sneak decently. 32 out of 48 is really good odds. If they have a sneak bonus, that's excellent. You just double it with an extra evade item, or an extra clue or two in case of emergencies and that investigator's set for the game.

What kinds of monsters do you sneak past with 3/2 or 3/3, Avi? Not dark young or ghosts, I'd assume, which are the major pain for non-combat gate-closers.

By my count, Wilson (good call), Wendy, Finn and Trish are excellent stealthers, about on par to Lore 5+/SAN 6+ characters as dedicated casters. Rita and Joe are pretty good, but already a rung below.

3/3 characters already need at least one item or skill to be even barely reliable against a huge majority of monsters. I wouldn't cast a spell at Lore 3, and trying to evade with Sneak 3 usually has worse chances and more dire consequences for failure.

I agree that you shouldn't sneak by -2 or -3 monsters if you can only afford Sneak 3 or less. But the thing is, if it's unlikely to sneak it, you should probably fight it or avoid it all together unless you have clues to burn.

If Sneak is all-powering, why do we even need spells/weapons? Just Sneak your way to victory or don't even bother drawing monsters.

But Sneak is there if you don't want to fight or can't fight the Color or Chthonian. Just like Fight is there if you don't want to sneak the Cultist. There are plenty stiuations where you can't fight a monster (Due to bad draws of starting items or the monster's toughness). If you don't want to get sent to the hospital or asylum, you have to sneak.

Sure, the game is about managing the number of dices so you have the best probability of each type of check. But part of the fun is that it's still just a probability. (I have rolled 10 dices with no successes. ) Just because Sneak isn't sure-fire, allows you do evade 100% of the time doesn't mean it's broken.

My group sneaks by monsters more often than fighting them, mostly because no one cares if the terror level is 4 or 5 if we keep sealing gates. Usually you have to get a skill to use it well (or +speed/movement so you can move your counter over), but by no means is it useless.

FFTARoxorz05 said:

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that... If you have a +speed item, that's another way to indirectly boost sneak. ::Shrug:: anyways, the point is if you do a little bit of shopping you should come across something.

I don't sneak with two (unless it's a +1 or +0 modifier), but if I have a character with 3/2 movement, I can bump it up to 1/4 usually, that's pretty good odds against most monsters, if you really want to get past them (and of course, you can keep an extra clue or two to cover you in case you screw up the roll).

I recall my two players games with my woman. She loves to sneak. I'm more the barbarian type, like, if my turn is before you, my dear, I'll open you the way, bursting to pieces any monster in the way so you can hop through the gate. But when I play after her, she usually plays clever : getting nearer the gate, like, a two spaces away location, where she has an encounter, sometimes gaining an item, slowing down the gate opening frequency, and reducing her speed to get additionnal sneak. And she often passes. And not with 4 dice (actually, I've never seen any player try a sneak check with four dice or more, in my games). She's got like, one ? or two dice. And that's it. That's the challenge. It's like in Craps. Big tension.... the throw.... wooow, she escaped the ugly monster ! Very excited and all. That's the spirit : we never play Arkham to win. We play to have big emotions

Hannibal Rex said:

As has already been mentioned, there's quite a few items (among other ways) that will grant you additional movement points, thus allowing you to get around with a low Speed setting. There are also several ways to auto-evade monsters, use spells to evade, or just 'teleport' to other locations - but that's beside the point.

It's true that most of the time in my games I set Speed to the highest value. But it's also the attribute I change most often. E.g. I typically lower it before entering other worlds. And I definitely try to avoid monsters in the late stages of the game, even if it's a gamble. If every turn could be your last, you'll try everything to get to (and through) those gates that need to be closed.

jhaelen said:

Don't know about you, but I always mind fighting cultists (or any monster, for that matter). Not because I'm likely to lose, but because I waste a turn. The benefit of sneak is not being able to avoid fighting monsters you can't beat, but to avoid wasting turns fighting when you should be gathering clues and sealing gates.

YellowPebble said:

Well said! Unless, of course, you like killing for it's own sake! Which many of my investigator friends seem to like.

One of the most often asked questions by a newbie is "Can I fight a monster and continue moving?" Now that would be a different game!

Most of AH is distraction from our main goal of sending the fiend back to where IT came from! Monsters are chief among those distractions.

I have to agree with the OP. In the games of AH we have played, it is our experience that the penalties of sneaking that many of the monsters have on them have made it **** near useless. We all just jack up our speed to max at the start of the game and call it it day.

Eric

mageith said:

Additionally, there are investigators who are very good at killing monsters. Using them for anything else would often be a waste. If they make it easier for the rest of the team to move across the board and close them gates, all the better.

jhaelen said:

I mentioned some of those monsters earlier. From the base game, Dark Young, Ghosts and Warlocks all are non-moving gate guardians that are hard to fight without good equipment, and have -2 or -3 modifiers. There are more.

Maybe the design intent was that sneaking without items is supposed to be as prohibitive as fighting without weapons. Once you have more than 4 movement points, or a way of mobility that doesn't require them (Mi-Go Case, Police Car), you can be lot more flexible with your sliders. But there are a lot less of those items in the decks than there are weapons. (Newer additions like the military motorcyle may have been introduced exactly for that reason.)The spells however, like Mists of Releh and Summon Shantak, actually compound the problem. As they don't require your sneak skill, they marginalize it even further.

A good point has been raised that if sneaking were too easy, everyone would do it instead of fighting. That makes some kind of sense, as you only need a single success, unlike most combat checks, and there isn't a drawback if you succeed, unlike most spells. Well actually, there is. The terror level may not be much of a threat in most games (that's its own game mechanic discussion), but it growing because you don't clear monsters already is a drawback to sneaking. There's also the opportunity cost of not getting monster trophies.

The last point is that fighting costs you turns, since your movement ends. First of all, that's only applicable to monsters on the street, not gate guardians. And the counterpoint, and crux of the problem, is that you're also losing turns if you have to your speed below a certain level. Sure, most characters can get a decent sneak skill at speed 1. But that means you either end your turn on a street, which nets you nothing, or you started on one the previous turn, which cost you earlier. The same goes for speed 2, with one conceivable exception - you moved to a safe location in a neighborhood the previous turn, then adjust your slider and sneak past a guarded gate in the same neighborhood.

Am I too readily dismissing lower speeds?

Hannibal Rex said:

Dark Youngs I'll give you, I hate those bastards. But will say stationary DYs are a infinitely more preferrable to the moving DYs.

Warlock's are so-so at best (barring GOO boost), -3, 2 Toughness with Magical Immunity, they obey bullets easy. Ghosts? Sure, you're probably not sneaking past, but -3, 1 Toughness, that's still a pushover by most accounts, even taking into account Physical Immunity.

jhaelen said:

Terror Level? Ordinarily that makes little or no difference in game except for points, does it? A few Old Ones key on it and the King in Yellow (voluntarily used) herald might make you think twice, tho.

Those excellent monster killer investigators can make things easier, I agree. If there is one in the game (of 3-4 investigators), s/he can save the others a lot of time and turns by clearing the way. But like excellent sneakers, there are few excellent killers. Most of the investigators simply lean toward a particular specialty. Even with the abundance of weapons in the game, its hard to make a non killer into a killer or even to make a killer with a faint heart (low sanity/will) into a really excellent killer without a lucky draw or skill.

And eventually that excellent monster killer is going to accrue a pile of trophies and will tempted to be spending them for clues and then is off world for serveral turns and by then the monster population is back up.

All in all, I prefer sneakers (evaders) to fighters, but that's OK because the majority of my group enjoys combat and that makes it even easier for my gal or guy.

Certain heralds: KIY and Dagon, make terror a lot bigger of a deal. Dagon especially is a wrecking ball when the terror increases, and he gets worse the more players you have (since you'll lose more clues, and the chances that one investigator is clueless and a doom will be added increase with every player).

It seems kind of odd to me that the sneak boosts are so few and far between. I mean, we have the Pallid Mask and the Dark cloaks (both from the base set) and the military motorcycle (bgotw). Not counting itmes that bypass the need for evade like the Silver Key, Mi-Goh brain case, etc... can we think of any others? I suppose the Shroud of Shadows spell from cotdp. So, when we talk about things to help you in your ninja endeavors, what we generally talk about is things that actually increase *movement*, not evade. Like the map, motorcycle, etc. These only increase your ninjability by extension, since you can afford to have your sneak in a higher position, but they do little for characters whose sneak maxes out low anyway.

Maybe this is intentional. If you're a bit of a clutz, there aren't too many items that can make you less of a clutz. whereas, if you're an old man with a cane, you can still hop on a motorcycle and go a lot faster. Nevertheless, it does tend to put sneak squarely in the camp of those investigators who have the stats for it.

awp832 said:

Summon Shantak. Mists of Releh.

=/. apparently you didnt read the part where I said I wasn't counting things that bypassed the need for evade. Both of those fall into that category.

awp832 said:

SS gives you the option of bybassing Evade . And it nets you +1 movement point.

awp832 said:

The OP Hannibal was is saying that stealth is little used in his group and that's because its a design flaw. IMO, it the best designed pairing of the three. If you want to be sneaky, slow down. If you want to evade (get past fast) the monster jump on a motorcyle.

Evade is much used in my group, mostly by me, but there are others too. I usually don't have any more problem getting evade or sneak boosts than I do getting enough guns to go around. Sometimes there's plenty and sometimes there's none. We are to make the best use of what we have.

I think you named lots of things that aid evade and I think there won't be a game where at least one of those items pops up (probably in the same group as a shotgun).

Case in point: Wendy is almost broken she's such a good evader and investigator. It took a long time for folks to see it or believe it. When someone in one my groups is forced to play Wendy, they first complain about her sanity and stamina and then about how few items she gets. I saw one guy jump for joy when she got a flamethrower. Instead of seeing her possibities, we try to turn her into something she's not.

Another favorite of mine is Rita. She has crap power but she's very well built. With a little nudge she can be a great fighter (5/4) or great evader (6/4). I'll bet most folks try to make her a fighter but she's naturally a better sneaker/evader.