So, thinking of rolling up a new Shien Expert.

Street Smarts remove a setback die from Streetwise and Knowledge (Underworld) checks. And it is the prerequisite to Shien Technique.

I am bit puzzled. Neither Streetwise and Underworld are primary or specialization career skills. Streetwise is at least based on Cunning...Knowledge (Underworld) is...Int of course.

Shien appears to be the only form where the gateway talent does not have a spec relevant utility or career related ability. Typo? Or...do they assume that every Shien will take also Shadow to gain Streetwise and Knowledge (Underworld) as career skills?

Just because it's not a career skill doesn't mean you can't take ranks in it. And even if you don't take ranks in it, you can still always use it "untrained."

I actually think it's useful: it's giving you a bonus with two skills you didn't have any bonuses with before. Maybe that bonus isn't quite as good as free (and cheaper) skill ranks, but it's expending your repertoire.

Of course, YMMV.

Sometimes removing a setback or 2 from a check is all you need to succeed, especially when relying on pure characteristics alone. It's a representation of the Shien having a natural affinity for those tasks, even if they don't train in them.

Just because it's not a career skill doesn't mean you can't take ranks in it. And even if you don't take ranks in it, you can still always use it "untrained."

I actually think it's useful: it's giving you a bonus with two skills you didn't have any bonuses with before. Maybe that bonus isn't quite as good as free (and cheaper) skill ranks, but it's expending your repertoire.

Of course, YMMV.

It's actually not a bonus, though, it's removing a penalty which may not even exist. Given how many GMs seem to forget that setback dive are a thing, it's fairly likely that the talent will never be useful for anything more than effectively increasing the xp cost of Shien Technique to 15.

Just because it's not a career skill doesn't mean you can't take ranks in it. And even if you don't take ranks in it, you can still always use it "untrained."

I actually think it's useful: it's giving you a bonus with two skills you didn't have any bonuses with before. Maybe that bonus isn't quite as good as free (and cheaper) skill ranks, but it's expending your repertoire.

Of course, YMMV.

It's actually not a bonus, though, it's removing a penalty which may not even exist. Given how many GMs seem to forget that setback dive are a thing, it's fairly likely that the talent will never be useful for anything more than effectively increasing the xp cost of Shien Technique to 15.

But that's not the Players fault that the GM is not in the habit of adding setback. some GM's go on about "Grooming" Players, this is definitely a case of the PC's needing to groom the GM. My advice? Start suggesting things that add setback to your own rolls! Get the GM to think more about the setback dice.

Lightsaber style is just supplementary in the greater Sentinel career. Shadow spec has both of this skills, and fluff wise the role of the Sentinel relays heavily on them.

This is the main thing I dislike about the Talent trees to be honest - a lot of Talents and Skills that seem to be chosen at random and don't fit the concept of the Specialisation.

The Scout spec is a particular offender.

Just because it's not a career skill doesn't mean you can't take ranks in it. And even if you don't take ranks in it, you can still always use it "untrained."

I actually think it's useful: it's giving you a bonus with two skills you didn't have any bonuses with before. Maybe that bonus isn't quite as good as free (and cheaper) skill ranks, but it's expending your repertoire.

Of course, YMMV.

It's actually not a bonus, though, it's removing a penalty which may not even exist. Given how many GMs seem to forget that setback dive are a thing, it's fairly likely that the talent will never be useful for anything more than effectively increasing the xp cost of Shien Technique to 15.

But that's not the Players fault that the GM is not in the habit of adding setback. some GM's go on about "Grooming" Players, this is definitely a case of the PC's needing to groom the GM. My advice? Start suggesting things that add setback to your own rolls! Get the GM to think more about the setback dice.

The point I was making is that setback removal talents are always going to be inferior to ones that add boost dice and equate to talent taxes that exist primarily to make talents further down on the tree more expensive. Worse, because there's a good chance that they won't come up that often, they might very well be forgotten by the player and not get applied even when they would be useful.

Mind, I'm not necessarily advocating any specific changes to the system or talent trees, just noting something to keep in mind.

This is the main thing I dislike about the Talent trees to be honest - a lot of Talents and Skills that seem to be chosen at random and don't fit the concept of the Specialisation.

The Scout spec is a particular offender.

At least these talents are ones that add boost dice, though, so can be useful even for a character lacking training in the associated skill. And, honestly, it'd be pretty rare that someone would complain about a boost to a skill as potentially useful/critical as Perception.

Most people will say that you're supposed to multi-class and take multiple specs early on.

To some degree, I can see this, but I would sooner have Specs that feel 'complete' by themselves. I think multi-classing should give you additional options, rather than making it essential to function in your original concept.

As with the topic creator's original question, I feel that the gateway talent for, say, Shien Technique, should be something that ties in better with the Spec as a whole.

So many Specs feel unfocused, and read like a grab-bag of random skills and Talents.

Most people will say that you're supposed to multi-class and take multiple specs early on.

To some degree, I can see this, but I would sooner have Specs that feel 'complete' by themselves. I think multi-classing should give you additional options, rather than making it essential to function in your original concept.

As with the topic creator's original question, I feel that the gateway talent for, say, Shien Technique, should be something that ties in better with the Spec as a whole.

So many Specs feel unfocused, and read like a grab-bag of random skills and Talents.

I also really love trees that give you two paths down the tree, but each is composed of the same talents just in a different order. For instance, the Seeker Hunter I mentioned earlier lets you either start with Hunter -> Expert Tracker or you can go Expert Tracker -> Hunter. The other top-row talents are a dead end and a short path that only connects to the 10-pt version of Expert Tracker. Oh, of course, Expert Tracker is a setback removal talent.

Oh, I agree. I think that the trees should offer some choice... Or be arranged in an interesting manner at the least. Gambler gives you some great stuff, but it's tucked away in the middle with no direct path, so you have to fully commit to the Spec instead of just 'dipping' for the best stuff. Or Commodore, which is a bit of a mixed bag, but at least offers four specific paths. Or Fringer, with its 'co-pilot' sub-tree.

I also think they overdo the 'black dice removal' talents. We have a droid that can remove seven black dice from a Deception check

It would be amusing to see the circumstances that would necessitate three setback dice to Deception, let alone gorram seven!

It would be amusing to see the circumstances that would necessitate three setback dice to Deception, let alone gorram seven!

“At ease, stormtroopers! It is I, your commanding officer. I know you must be wondering why I appear to be dressed as a droid, an anatomically-correct female model at that. So I would like to reassure you there is a very good reason why I am wearing this disguise. Which I will tell you when I meet up with you in Sector-7Alpha. Get to it, men, on the double!”

Most people will say that you're supposed to multi-class and take multiple specs early on.

To some degree, I can see this, but I would sooner have Specs that feel 'complete' by themselves. I think multi-classing should give you additional options, rather than making it essential to function in your original concept.

As with the topic creator's original question, I feel that the gateway talent for, say, Shien Technique, should be something that ties in better with the Spec as a whole.

So many Specs feel unfocused, and read like a grab-bag of random skills and Talents.

Niman Style gateway talent is Nobody's Fool: which prevents you from being conned. I see that fitting a Consular role.

Soresu Style has Parry. This seems a good match for Guardian.

Makashi Style has Resist Disarm. Which is a great combat skill for a duellist.

Ataru Style uses Jump up. A nice perk if you get knocked down.

After all those...Street Smarts for skills you don't have just threw me. If they say added to the difficulty of incoming checks, that makes more sense...but for a starting character saying..."wait this talent is so fitting with your specialization you can actually use it once you take a different specialization or spend extra exp to learns skills that are not a part of your specialization..." and it's the only FaD gateway that does it in this fashion. If the intent is to bump up the cost, move the style further down the tree.

I see that fitting a Consular role.

Street Smarts fits the Sentinel role. Or at least falls into line with the general job of the Jedi Sentinels, which is what the career is based on.

Honestly, you have to look at the talent selection more from a concept than a purely mechanical standpoint. I can't off hand think of a spec that doesn't have something that doesn't fit the type of character it represents.