Thoughts?
REX, O'LEADER & Z'LEADER
TIE defender & x2 TIE/fo Fighters
100 points
PILOTS
“Zeta Leader” (24)
TIE/fo Fighter (20), Wired (1), Hull Upgrade (3)
“Omega Leader” (26)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Comm Relay (3), Juke (2)
Rexler Brath (50)
TIE Defender (37), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Predator (3), Hull Upgrade (3)
if you drop to Vess with VI that will free up 4 points, which can give you a Comms on Zeta giving them better survivability as well as a 1 point init bid, not that it will matter much.
I find that any time I have multiple Hull Upgrades or Shield Upgrades in a list, it's time to go back to the drawing board.
There's considerably more debate on this point, but I'm also not a huge fan of HLCs on Defenders. They just don't have the dial for consistent range control, which is what you need to use HLC more than once or twice.
Dropping those means you have a 40-point Rexler and 26-point Omega Leader, which leaves plenty of space to swap Zeta Leader for an ace at PS9+. And that ace would also cover one of your current issues, which is that you're probably going to struggle against enemy Soontirs, Whispers, Vaders, etc.
someone did a battle report with the same list and did ok, you can find it on the battle report forum. I would change Zeta Leaders Hull upgrade for a comm relay if you have it.
someone did a battle report with the same list and did ok, you can find it on the battle report forum. I would change Zeta Leaders Hull upgrade for a comm relay if you have it.
Flew against Zeta leader and he is pretty nasty. Especially with Wired.
I find that any time I have multiple Hull Upgrades or Shield Upgrades in a list, it's time to go back to the drawing board.
There's considerably more debate on this point, but I'm also not a huge fan of HLCs on Defenders. They just don't have the dial for consistent range control, which is what you need to use HLC more than once or twice.
Dropping those means you have a 40-point Rexler and 26-point Omega Leader, which leaves plenty of space to swap Zeta Leader for an ace at PS9+. And that ace would also cover one of your current issues, which is that you're probably going to struggle against enemy Soontirs, Whispers, Vaders, etc.
Seriously, I take maybe 1-2 shots per game at Range 1 with that exact Rexler build. On a Defender, HLC is playing with house money, in my book. It also solves a ton of your "ace problems", because range 3 on an HLC is still crazy scary and hard to dodge to all the big time aces. None of them want to get in a fight with Rex, because he punches harder and the white K-turn means that they can outmaneuver him, but usually only once, then he's right back on their tail. Omega Leader ends up doing the same thing to one ace. Use both of those arcs, and you'll start dropping aces, as long as you understand how all the ships involved have to move.
Edited by BiophysicalJust another idea to be able to punch more through. It leaves 1-point for initiative for PS 8 ships and OL on PS 10 ships. Vader on the shuttle also helps with Aces.
someone did a battle report with the same list and did ok, you can find it on the battle report forum. I would change Zeta Leaders Hull upgrade for a comm relay if you have it.
That was me. I did Hull because I only had the one Juke, and I was also a little afraid of Crack Shot, which Hull helps with. Wired also makes up for not being able to stack Evade+Focus a little bit as well, so against larger quantities of lower PS stuff, you can enter a fight with Evade+re-rolled eyeballs on attack and defense+5 hit points. It's pretty tough.
This list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Opinion, but you really need to have an answer for high PS ships. In lists with 4+ ships, that's accomplished by blocking-via-placement. With 3 ships or less, you really need to compete with PS (or blow it out of the water with a nice 35 point Vader).
I find that any time I have multiple Hull Upgrades or Shield Upgrades in a list, it's time to go back to the drawing board.
There's considerably more debate on this point, but I'm also not a huge fan of HLCs on Defenders. They just don't have the dial for consistent range control, which is what you need to use HLC more than once or twice.
Dropping those means you have a 40-point Rexler and 26-point Omega Leader, which leaves plenty of space to swap Zeta Leader for an ace at PS9+. And that ace would also cover one of your current issues, which is that you're probably going to struggle against enemy Soontirs, Whispers, Vaders, etc.
I think you're a pretty reasonable guy with a good grasp of the game, but I have to disagree completely with you on the Defender w/ HLC. Defender makes an EXCELLENT HLC platform in my experience (or any cannon). Defenders are definitely the best cannon carrier for the Imperials (partly because they are on a small base).
And predator + HLC has been absolute pure gold for me on so many occasions, I am totally sold on its competitive value. You just cannot stop that kind of firepower multiple times....even Soontir has to be careful of ending in arc vs that kind of a shot...
As for high PS aces, the list does have answers: Omega Leader's TL + Juke, and if either TIE gets a block for Rexler, that ace is off the board barring the most incredibly crazy dice. Its also possible to drop Zeta Leader for a pair of academies, and I think that would be a good call in a meta saturated by high PS aces (because an extra ship makes blocking easier), but I don't think its absolutely necessary...
Edited by blade_mercurialThere's considerably more debate on this point, but I'm also not a huge fan of HLCs on Defenders. They just don't have the dial for consistent range control, which is what you need to use HLC more than once or twice.
Seriously, I take maybe 1-2 shots per game at Range 1 with that exact Rexler build. On a Defender, HLC is playing with house money, in my book.
I think you're a pretty reasonable guy with a good grasp of the game, but I have to disagree completely with you on the Defender w/ HLC...
I'm happy to defer to your expertise. If it's worked for you guys in the past, it's definitely worth trying for the OP.
Edited by Vorpal SwordThis list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Opinion, but you really need to have an answer for high PS ships. In lists with 4+ ships, that's accomplished by blocking-via-placement. With 3 ships or less, you really need to compete with PS (or blow it out of the water with a nice 35 point Vader).
I ran this exact list in a 28 person Store Championship, and was second overall after Swiss. I barely lost in the semis to the eventual winner (who was running Soontir/Vader/Omega Leader), a player who I beat during Swiss. Lack of PS 9 is really not a problem for the Omega Leader/Rexler Brath tag team. Zeta is in there because he's really good for his points against massed low-PS stuff, but even against aces, he's tough, can block for Rex, and can set up powerful shots of his own.
It all depends on what your goals are. If you want to fly a fun list with a TIE Defender, it's fine. If you want to be competitive, it's not. The Defender is one of the worst ships in the game. Maybe the Imperial veterans expansion will change that, I don't know, but it's not out yet.
I just decided on a defender + 3 tie/do list for a tournament tomorrow.
Vessery + HLC and Decoy
Epsilon Ace + Comms relay
Omega x2 + Crackshot
This list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Gotta love the overconfidence of some members sometimes, as if the list was the most important factor in this game.
As for the OP list, I think it's fine. I would just personally drop the Hull on Zeta Leader for a Comm Relay, the evade will do the same thing (maybe even better since it might save you from a crit) and is ''regenerable''. What I like is that there is two end game monster here: Omega Leader and Brath. So it might give trouble to your opponent to choose who's the priority target. Meanwhile Zeta is more low profile and still hit with a 3 attack value.
This list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Gotta love the overconfidence of some members sometimes, as if the list was the most important factor in this game.
As for the OP list, I think it's fine. I would just personally drop the Hull on Zeta Leader for a Comm Relay, the evade will do the same thing (maybe even better since it might save you from a crit) and is ''regenerable''. What I like is that there is two end game monster here: Omega Leader and Brath. So it might give trouble to your opponent to choose who's the priority target. Meanwhile Zeta is more low profile and still hit with a 3 attack value.
Yeah. The only advantage I can see hull having over comm relay is vs a crack swarm. You are likely to force your opponent to spend 1 additional crack shot killing him (one less he can use on your other ships later on). Other than that, comm relay is kinda better...
This list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Gotta love the overconfidence of some members sometimes, as if the list was the most important factor in this game.
From what I've gathered in online discussions about X-wing, everyone consistently wins, against everything, and places at the top of the rankings. I must be the outlier 
This list would be great... to run into at a tournament. My Palp & 2 Aces build would eat it right up.
Gotta love the overconfidence of some members sometimes, as if the list was the most important factor in this game.
From what I've gathered in online discussions about X-wing, everyone consistently wins, against everything, and places at the top of the rankings. I must be the outlier
It's partly inflation, I suspect, but mostly it's a self-selection bias: the people who post here are typically very involved in the game and in the tournament scene, and so they skew toward success in tournaments.
Personally, I'm consistent but not outstanding. I've never finished worse than 2-2 in a tournament, but my best finish ever was 2nd place at the end of Swiss at a store champs last weekend (I had to drop from the cut to relieve the babysitter).
So take people's stories with a grain of salt, and remember that if even if you were at the bottom of most online conversations, you'd still probably be in the top half of all players.
Vorpal is right. You also have to consider people who win more are less reluctant to talk about it. They get to talk about success. That's way more fun than failure.
The list is not the most important thing in the game, but it IS important.
Just take a quick run through listjuggler. In the top 20% of all tournaments of a decent size, say 25+ players, how many TIE Defenders can you find?
I don't know what List Juggler says, but I know that in 2 Store Championships and one Regional (out of 2 Store Championships and one Regional that I've played in) Defenders have made the finals or semifinals. Those were pretty much the only Defenders in the running in those tournaments as well. It's not like there were Fel quantities of Rexler Brath out through.
Historically, very few people really seem to have tried to make them work, so they don't show up very often. That is changing now, though. There's been a few good showings and wins by Defenders in this Store Championship season already.
I think a lot of people, myself included, have tried to make the TIE Defender work. And given up when they realized just how horrible it is.
There seems to be an abundance of love for the ship, thematically, and it is probably safe to assume that most X-Wing players go for what they like when they first start playing the game.
As a Defender lover, I am super excited for the Imperial Veterans box. Whether or not it will make the Defender competitive is too soon to say, but it is definitely going to make it playable.
As a Defender lover, I am super excited for the Imperial Veterans box. Whether or not it will make the Defender competitive is too soon to say, but it is definitely going to make it playable.
Oh its gonna be competitive alright. Triple ion deltas in particular (its easy to figure out and relatively easy to run). A number of popular builds right now simply have no means to deal with it.
The list is not the most important thing in the game, but it IS important.
Just take a quick run through listjuggler. In the top 20% of all tournaments of a decent size, say 25+ players, how many TIE Defenders can you find?
Sure it's important, but nobody should take a game for granted as an auto-win just by looking at his opponent's list. I know I don't. Player's skill trump the list.
I personally really don't care about what the community think of a ship, if I think it can do the job, and it fits my playstyle, I'll take it. I played a lot with the Defenders during Wave 4-5 and personally had a lot of success with it. Only reason I look at listjuggler is to see what to expect, because most player will just copy paste a winning list instead of experimenting on their own. If more players would just stop to copy paste the last National or World's lists, we would see a lot more of the underdog ships. But instead, they come on the forum, listen to various podcast and take their opinion for granted as the only truth.
Edited by Red Castle