Hello girls and boys !

So, this question is more geared toward Imperial Fleets but we can look at them with a Rebel perspective as well

I was studying clontrooper5's list in search of weaknesses as prompted in the few threads that popped up and something crossed my mind. Even though he has a very offensive list, it is such short range that he has to go for a high activation advantage and big attack pools so he can make sure to first get in range and secondly make the attack count.

To link Clon's very well put post about threat ranges : https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202665-lets-analyse-threat-range/

Obviously, we see that Imperial ships with larger threat ranges have also lower damage. What they lose in damage potential however, they gain in damage projection.

Let's look at an ISD 2 versus an ISD 1 for instance :

- Damage at long range : ISD 2 = ISD 1 +33%

- Optimal range size : ISD 2 = ISD 1 + 50%

- Damage at medium range : ISD 2 = ISD 1 +60%

- Damage at close range : ISD 1 = ISD 2 +12.5%

Now, a VSD 2 versus a VSD 1 :

- Damage at long range : VSD 2 = VSD 1

- Optimal range size : VSD 2 = VSD 1 + 50%

- Damage at medium range : VSD 2 = VSD 1 + 100%

- Damage at close range : VSD 1 = VDS 2 +16.7%

So, not only does the ISD 2 has longer range, it also deal more damage at any range except close range. It's not too surprising so far, but let's add more. ISD 2 variants have access to the awesome defensive retrofit upgrade while ISD 1s have access to double offensive retrofits. It might be tempting to think that because the defensive retrofit is accessible, then it's better to play full defensive with an already tough to crack nut. But, by pacing oneself, one make less use of the vaunted defensive retrofit : the more damage you're expecting to take, the more useful it becomes.

On the other hand, the ISD 1 being able to fit Expanded Hangars more easily (let's assume that on both variant, the Phylon Q7 is picked as the offensive retrofit. Yes, it ain't that bad !), it can add to its existing fighter escort which adds to its range as well, and allows it to move slower, getting more turns to reangle to deliver its nasty blows.

Or, because it's better as a carrier, it can just have its generous amount of fighters do the heavy lifting for it, while it hangs back, and take less damage, and thus need less defensive retrofit

Just my 2 cents on the matter guys ! I4d love to have your opinions on that because even though black dice have a larger damage potential, they also have a lot less damage projection which is starting to lend me to think that they are more geared towards defensive playstyles. On top of that, they're sacrificing large amounts of long range firepower for a marginal gain at close range.

But maybe it's crazy thoughts coming from a formerly Rebel player that has trouble adapting to the Imperial Navy

Can you define "defensive" please?

I see red dice batteries as defencive as it allows you to keep your foe at arms length.

Can you define "defensive" please?

I see red dice batteries as defencive as it allows you to keep your foe at arms length.

Hey ! I meant defensive as in more appropriate to hang back and let the opponent come to you when flying ships with large amounts of black dice, then pounce on him, rather than trying to come up and apply damage. Because it's easily countered by an enemy fleet capable of moving away

Because of quite the larger threat range, longer range ships have an easier time applying damage and as such are more interesting offensively.

If the threat range was purely circular, the fact that medium range is 50% longer than close range, you're effectively covering 2.25 times more area which isn't insignificant.

The problem is black dice are only "defensive" against other ships that are using black dice and want to force a confrontation with you. Otherwise, Rebels are happy to sit at long range and toilet bowl/Ackbar snore their problems (re: you) away at longer ranges.

Black dice can be very useful, but at least one of the following needs to be true to get use from them:

• You are first player (so you can move a black dice ship in and then activate it first next turn)
• The black dice ship is the Demolisher
• You out-activate the other player and so can afford to wait him out and corner him into blundering into black dice range (even better if you're also first player, as clontrooper5 has proven to the Raider-haters' great sadness)
• You can rely on slowing down enemy ships enough that they cannot escape black dice range in a single movement (see: Tractor Beam spam)
• You can rely on pincering an enemy in place so he cannot escape black dice range and it's just a ram-a-palooza until one of the ships involved is destroyed, allowing the others to leave. This works great with Engine Tech Gladiators and ISD-Is, in my experience, but you can also occasionally use other ships for this as well.

When I see players include black dice ships in their fleet without at least one (and preferably more) of these being true, it is often the case that they then complain that getting black dice to work is too difficult and not worth it.

See, this is what I talk about when I mean them not being prime offensive choice, because they require such a high logistics chain to be effective.

Regarding the swirl, having longer range is easier to catch it rather than also purely relying on black dice range.

I definitely agree with your points btw. The one thing I would add is that Black Dice need much less set up when facing larger ships with a slower and predictible movement as well as a larger base that will have trouble avoiding black range. When hunting for smaller ships, I definitely agree that you need 2 to 3 items on your list for safety.

I think there are quite a lot of comparisons to be made to wave 1 B-Wings here.

I think there are quite a lot of comparisons to be made to wave 1 B-Wings here.

This is quite an elegant comparison to make indeed !

I was picturing definitely the same logic

Much like the Raider I actually. While 2 BL AS is pretty nice and is starting to deal some serious damage with Ordnance Experts, when you look at squadron warfare it doesn't have the range to be anything but a squadron catcher (when it comes to anti-squadrons obviously).

I think there are quite a lot of comparisons to be made to wave 1 B-Wings here.

This is quite an elegant comparison to make indeed !

I was picturing definitely the same logic

Much like the Raider I actually. While 2 BL AS is pretty nice and is starting to deal some serious damage with Ordnance Experts, when you look at squadron warfare it doesn't have the range to be anything but a squadron catcher (when it comes to anti-squadrons obviously).

It's a squadron-catcher backing up a Rhymerball, and that's a functional use for a Raider-I.

I will counter that if you can pin enemy squadrons in place with your own engaging squadrons, the Raider-I can coast up alongside the furball and make some enemy squadrons EXTREMELY sad at the start of the next turn. It just needs the support to do so safely.

The problem is black dice are only "defensive" against other ships that are using black dice and want to force a confrontation with you. Otherwise, Rebels are happy to sit at long range and toilet bowl/Ackbar snore their problems (re: you) away at longer ranges.

Black dice can be very useful, but at least one of the following needs to be true to get use from them:

• You are first player (so you can move a black dice ship in and then activate it first next turn)
• The black dice ship is the Demolisher
• You out-activate the other player and so can afford to wait him out and corner him into blundering into black dice range (even better if you're also first player, as clontrooper5 has proven to the Raider-haters' great sadness)
• You can rely on slowing down enemy ships enough that they cannot escape black dice range in a single movement (see: Tractor Beam spam)
• You can rely on pincering an enemy in place so he cannot escape black dice range and it's just a ram-a-palooza until one of the ships involved is destroyed, allowing the others to leave. This works great with Engine Tech Gladiators and ISD-Is, in my experience, but you can also occasionally use other ships for this as well.

When I see players include black dice ships in their fleet without at least one (and preferably more) of these being true, it is often the case that they then complain that getting black dice to work is too difficult and not worth it.

All good points. I would also add, unless the black dice heavy player has first player to get off the high threat activation, the other useful solution is to create a 'double-threat'. This is a chess tactic, whereby you threaten TWO enemy ships with black dice by the end of a turn to tee-up a problem for their first activation. This leaves your opponent with a much more difficult choice over which ship to save.

Obviously harder to pull off in reality than theory though!

Regarding the activating first then burning away, it's only ever interesting when you have more ships than the opponent so you can delay him until he's activated everything. So, at least 4 ships for safety, with 5 being preferred Otherwise, he'll delay the target until you're in range.

After giving more considerations, I don't think black dice are particularily defensive, but I think they're more efficient than blues when it comes to hunting big game. Blues are more "standard" and can threaten smaller ships with less trouble.

The skill level required to employ black dice effectively makes them very hard to play. The rewards are vast for damage output but in general, longer range is better for the long game.

I have found that 4 ships (all black dice based) and a heavy squadron concentration allows me to have flexibility in the tactics I use. I also consider Ozzel as mandatory for me with an Empire black dice list with Engine Techs a must on Gladiators. With Rebel black dice lists (never seen an all torpedo frigate list) you need Mon Mothma.

I am becoming quite proficient with the Empire hit and run tactics and I am not in anyway averse to running badly wounded ships away from the fight once they have made their attack run, so in this sense, you could say they are defensive, but with aggressive tendancies.

The objectives you choose are also important with black dice fleets with the movement based ones or Minefields proving to be good for me.

Strangely, one of the easier lists to defeat with black dice, 4 ship and squadron lists is the vaunted 3 x AF with Ackbar list as a Gladiator is a match for the AF at close range and getting there and staying there with Ozzel and Techs is reasonably straight forward. General tactics are send in the squadrons to clean up enemy squadrons whilst maneuvering my ships to keep them out of firing range, then later game, swoop in on a single target and pound it then race onto the next one, using the remaining squadrons in support or to harass another ship, so again, defensive with aggressive tendancies.

Every time I fly variants of my black dice 'swarm force' they are the most fun games I have. 10-0 and 9-1 wins are rare with this list, but 8-2's are a solid expectation.