Has this fleet been flown in Real Life games at all or just on Vassal where micro managing arcs and range is very easy?
I took it to a Winter Kit tournament (10 players) and placed first, even though it was very close (23 TPs to 22 for second and 19 for third.) It's definitely a lot less precise, simply down to human error (such as accidental nudging of ships) but it's about 99.5% as effective on the table as it is on Vassal.
It's part of the reason I didn't really believe in Raider viability until I decided to try putting some of those ideas into use. Practical experience told me at first Raiders sucked and conventionally, they still do. They're still weak and easily torched. But practical experience today with this ad-hoc list proved that there is some way you can use the Raiders after all...
As I just speculated in another thread though, I think the big bad of Clon's list is really that Demolisher and Screed-Ordnance expert assurance to maximize that and try to net 10 damage out of it, and directly threaten a brace. Then do it again on the next turn with first activation. Demolisher coming in can kick off that first attack you capitalize on in the next turn. Wallex can't help because you don't have activation either.
I know you do norse, it was definitely not directed at you. You know (from my other topic) that i sink quite alot of time into researching these things. The raider is not completely useless (maybe for beginners) but still requires alot of work to actually make it work, that's where i'm standing at the moment. I just roll to many times with my eyes when people start their sentences off with "you just have to... you're playing it wrong..." that's why i keep myself contained somewhat and not start discussions, i need to get other stuff done during the day
I'm amused we're basically back to the gencon list and this is somehow new territory complete with an "impossible to beat" list. Perhaps people may want to dust off their Neb-bs? Yavaris is still good and in a five ship list can go last to break up the back to back activations. I'll be stuck on repeat and push the list I've been pushing. 3x Neb, mc30, cr90. Add Mon Motha, squadrons to fit your meta and season with upgrades to taste. Keep a tight Neb line using the mc30 to keep ships from closing on the Nebs and flank with the 90. (I'm not saying this is the only counter or the best. But Yavaris does a great job of making Demolisher pay)
I'm amused we're basically back to the gencon list and this is somehow new territory complete with an "impossible to beat" list. Perhaps people may want to dust off their Neb-bs? Yavaris is still good and in a five ship list can go last to break up the back to back activations. I'll be stuck on repeat and push the list I've been pushing. 3x Neb, mc30, cr90. Add Mon Motha, squadrons to fit your meta and season with upgrades to taste. Keep a tight Neb line using the mc30 to keep ships from closing on the Nebs and flank with the 90. (I'm not saying this is the only counter or the best. But Yavaris does a great job of making Demolisher pay)
There's alot of "legendspinning" in here because its the next "woah" thing, and people want to believe. Alot of people are bouncing off each other and lift this up to something that isn't as dangerous as they make it out... however i agree with yavaris, in the right hands it gives you an excellent damage projection.
The rhymerball by the way as well, they finish off badly damaged raiders / glads while not being really under alot of pressure. I remain skeptic and see firespray spam lists as a bigger threat in the tournament meta.
I love the internet. 2 threads next to each other, 1 exclaiming that raiders are trash and the other that a 4 raiders list is unbeatable.
@Lancezh: I, personally not engaging in "legend spinning." I was skeptical of Clon's list and so I watched it. I watched it instakill 150+ point ships with no chance for response. I saw this more than once and said to myself "Wow, that looks incredibly unfun to play against. I wonder how you beat it."
@clon: As you demonstrated when asked what other list you'd play, the Raider isn't the linchpin. They just make the list a lot smoother to play. The whole go last/first is based on how absurdly overturned the Denolisher title is.
Respectfully, Norsehound, B's should be near-useless against Clon's list due to the inclusion of Instigator and the speed of his ships. Even if you can properly use them as mines, his Instigator will tie them down without breaking a sweat, letting the Demo instakill a ship of choice. This has been discussed.
Instigator doesn't prevent fighters from attacking outright do they? They just have to attack Instigator. So, if you pod the B-Wings and place them in such a way to stay in the front arc of Instigator, during the fighter phase all four pummel the front arc. Unless all of them whiff, they can do enough damage to leave Instigator open to any capital attack to finish them off. If Demolisher doesn't finish off a ship via activation then your response is to punch Instigator out and that's one less Raider to deal with. The B-Wings can then flutter to another target and punch that down too.
Besides, if that doesn't work you space out your fighters such that Insitgator's distance bubble can't cover all of them.
Point being that Raiders can't suffer many attacks against them.
Thats why the Ties escort Instigator. They become the primary targets whilst Instigator locks the squadrons down.
I am sure it is posted somewhere but I couldn't find it, but does anyone know where I can find the log file for these matches? The Vassal tournament files that is. I would love to watch that final match.
Thanks guys!
Has this fleet been flown in Real Life games at all or just on Vassal where micro managing arcs and range is very easy?
Its been stated a few times that its been flown a few times by Clon Himself (in earlier iterations, not 100% successfully), and by others, including one who flew it at a recent Store Champs, fairly successfully.
In that case, let's revisit the "unbeatable" nature of the fleet when/if it dominates nationals and World champs.
Until then, lets discuss how you can combat the integral part of the fleet - Demolisher and how she has enough small ships ahead of her in the initiative to effectively triple tap a target.
Kill Demolisher, kill the fleet.
I'm not sure if it has been discussed, but as someone who is tinkering with the list and thoroughly enjoying playing it, it looks like staggering your fleet could do very well in trying to deal with Demolisher and the Raiders. Having a front running ship that Demolisher wants to kill (something like an AF2, which is likely to die) is good bait, but keeping the MC80 back, maybe at close range of the AF2, to then be able to hammer Demolisher after it's run could have some merit.
Similarly, the ExL Raiders want to do the same sort of thing: jump in fast, activate first next turn to smash your nose in, and then jump away at Speed 4. Staggering your fleet will make it difficult for any RDR/GSD to jump away and be entirely safe, though it may be difficult to get enough power facing Demolisher's end point, considering just how manoeuvrable Speed 3 plus Engine Techs actually is.
Today Is the day a thread about ME reached 200 posts!
Which makes it the 21st most replied to thread on this forum!
Edited by clontroper5To be fair, the World Cup thread was also eventually about you.
To be fair, the World Cup thread was also eventually about you.
You need to monetize this Sh*!
Next Vassal tournament:
Everyone-and-their-mom tries to defeat Clon without underbidding.
Also, in breaking news, the painting sub-forum was removed to make way for a new forum containing 99% of all future posts:
When is wave (N+1) coming and how do I beat Clon.
Massed Raiders will probably be the "in" thing now since it's a new strategy with old ships that provides the 'newness' lacking in the next wave. But flimsy raiders can't carry as well (I think) as a better balanced list, and there will be holes to expolit. I considered taking the list I just tested with into the next tournament but that second game didn't make me confident I could utterly destroy something like a prepared Ackbar list. I might take that Gladiator though, since that is really scary.
Thats why the Ties escort Instigator. They become the primary targets whilst Instigator locks the squadrons down.
True, but I'd wonder if you would start feeling squeezed for points if you try to put too many things into the list. For these Raiders to work you need to have activation advantage, which means playing the bidding game and cutting out anything unnecessary. So sure, you have Instigator, but how many TIEs to you tack into the list to make it effective against a handful of B/X-Wings that a general list will be using for defense? You need to preserve the initiative bid, so what are you cutting out and what are you keeping?
Edit: Actually just played with the builder:
Charge! Again! (378)
Most Wanted - Hyperspace Assault - Superior Positions
GSD-I // Demolisher / Intel Officer / Expanded Launchers / Engine Techs / Ordnance
Experts
Speculators
RDR-I // Intel Officer / Expanded Launchers / Ordnance
Experts
Interns
RDR-I // Intel Officer / Screed / Expanded Launchers / Ordnance
Experts
Advisory board
RDR-I // Intel Officer / Assault Concussion Missiles / Ordnance "Experts" / Instigator
4x TIE Fighter
Dengar
22 points to improve with or use for the bid. Instigator has the fighters it needs, and Dengar to let them fight back. Interesting.
Edited by NorsehoundLol ordinance advisory board
Don't need more than 2 tie, dengar is a waste... just squeeze in another raider... you don't want to risk demo not getting to activate last... that's the hinge point of the whole list...
Edited by SkyCakeSo, lots of talk about how a good player is the success of the list; but not much consensus on lists a good player can use to beat another with this list.
Consensus from Clon's opponents seems to be that with the lists they used, it would be difficult to beat his list on a regular basis, even if given more time to familiarize themselves with all lists involved.
For the time being, it seems his list (or variant of) will be the list to beat for a while to come.
So Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
So Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
well the expanded launcher raiders do 8-10 damage pretty regularly with their front arc and with Intel officer allow for crazy burst damage. I would take 4 if I could, but I have to use APT as an cheap alternative which does well but does not carry the same punchSo Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
I would also add that APTs make good finishers to come along after the ExL's have hit, as the APTs all but guarantee hull damage.
Something that limps away on 1-3 hull is in serious danger from an APT boat, regardless of where it has shields.
well the expanded launcher raiders do 8-10 damage pretty regularly with their front arc and with Intel officer allow for crazy burst damage. I would take 4 if I could, but I have to use APT as an cheap alternative which does well but does not carry the same punchSo Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
I would also add that APTs make good finishers to come along after the ExL's have hit, as the APTs all but guarantee hull damage.
Something that limps away on 1-3 hull is in serious danger from an APT boat, regardless of where it has shields.
well the expanded launcher raiders do 8-10 damage pretty regularly with their front arc and with Intel officer allow for crazy burst damage. I would take 4 if I could, but I have to use APT as an cheap alternative which does well but does not carry the same punch
So Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
What are your thoughts on ACM's vs APT's for your non-heavy hitters in this list? ACM's give you the potential for an additional 4 damage to the ship with a double arc shot and 2 critcals. Do you prefer the guaranteed damage to the hull with APT's over the potential for additional damage that may just get absorbed into the shields? I do see the rational that if the 2 Raiders with APT's engage in short range fighting its because they are dealing with a ship that has already gotten through your heavy hitters and will likely already have heavy damage on them and you just may need to finish it off? Or do you just prefer the lower point cost 5 compared to 7? I am pretty much trying to fit a Demo in any Imperial fleet just because I feel this ships is so powerful but often I can't afford expanded launchers so do you think there is a huge drop-off in killing power when going down to ACM's to save 6 points?
Sorry for all the questions but I just wanted to get your thoughts on Expanded Launchers vs ACM's vs APT's. Thank you!
Edited by Madaghmirewell the expanded launcher raiders do 8-10 damage pretty regularly with their front arc and with Intel officer allow for crazy burst damage. I would take 4 if I could, but I have to use APT as an cheap alternative which does well but does not carry the same punchSo Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
What are your thoughts on ACM's vs APT's for your non-heavy hitters in this list? ACM's give you the potential for an additional 4 damage to the ship with a double arc shot and 2 critcals. Do you prefer the guaranteed damage to the hull with APT's over the potential for additional damage that may just get absorbed into the shields? I do see the rational that if the 2 Raiders with APT's engage in short range fighting its because they are dealing with a ship that has already gotten through your heavy hitters and will likely already have heavy damage on them and you just may need to finish it off? Or do you just prefer the lower point cost 5 compared to 7? I am pretty much trying to fit a Demo in any Imperial fleet just because I feel this ships is so powerful but often I can't afford expanded launchers so do you think there is a huge drop-off in killing power when going down to ACM's to save 6 points?
Sorry for all the questions but I just wanted to get your thoughts on Expanded Launchers vs ACM's vs APT's. Thank you!
well the expanded launcher raiders do 8-10 damage pretty regularly with their front arc and with Intel officer allow for crazy burst damage. I would take 4 if I could, but I have to use APT as an cheap alternative which does well but does not carry the same punchSo Clon,
What did you think of your Expanded Launcher Raiders vs. your Assault Proton Torpedo Raiders?
What are your thoughts on ACM's vs APT's for your non-heavy hitters in this list? ACM's give you the potential for an additional 4 damage to the ship with a double arc shot and 2 critcals. Do you prefer the guaranteed damage to the hull with APT's over the potential for additional damage that may just get absorbed into the shields? I do see the rational that if the 2 Raiders with APT's engage in short range fighting its because they are dealing with a ship that has already gotten through your heavy hitters and will likely already have heavy damage on them and you just may need to finish it off? Or do you just prefer the lower point cost 5 compared to 7? I am pretty much trying to fit a Demo in any Imperial fleet just because I feel this ships is so powerful but often I can't afford expanded launchers so do you think there is a huge drop-off in killing power when going down to ACM's to save 6 points?
Sorry for all the questions but I just wanted to get your thoughts on Expanded Launchers vs ACM's vs APT's. Thank you!
You didn't ask me, but IMO what makes the Expanded Launchers work is the synergy with Intel Officer and Screed. If you aren't running those, ACM's are a better upgrade for the points.
Everyone's opinion is welcome! That does make sense since your goal is to add as much total damage as possible to one hull zone getting them to spend the brace for your intel officer. The 2 extra blacks give you the chance to get a potential 4 extra damage with rerolls and a minimum of 2 extra damage using Screed. Getting 4 black die and 2 red from your front followed by 4 black from the side is just brutal with Demolisher. It's more on the other ships I'm wondering if saving 6 points each makes sense. If Xiphos and Dagger in his list dropped to ACM's I'm wondering if they really lose much killing power.