Controper, have you run this list IRL? And if so, how did it work for you? I'm asking because I've found that what I do on Vassal doesn't always work on a table top, and vice versa.

Controper, have you run this list IRL? And if so, how did it work for you? I'm asking because I've found that what I do on Vassal doesn't always work on a table top, and vice versa.

I did win 1 game in like 8-2 vctory, but i lost the other 2 in 7-3/8-2 defeats, but that was mostly because i was underbid and ended up playing 2nd player

So me and my friend were talking about a Rebel build that might do well against this. And he mentioned something I have not seen mentioned here yet: Tractor Beams.

Faction: Rebel Alliance Points: 395/400 Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery Defense Objective: Fire Lanes Navigation Objective: Minefields

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points) - Intel Officer ( 7 points) - Gunnery Team ( 7 points) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points) [ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points) - Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points) - Home One ( 7 points) - Intel Officer ( 7 points) - Engine Techs ( 8 points) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points) - Slaved Turrets ( 6 points) Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points) - Intel Officer ( 7 points) - Gunnery Team ( 7 points) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points) 3 A-Wing Squadrons ( 33 points)

I would probably want to replace slaved with XI7 or Heavy turbo's just because if you do get the one game where someone gives you Adv Gunnery you will give it to the MC80 (it will never happen but can dream)

The Clone Raiders can move and shoot further than the Tractor Beams can reach. They may slow down a ship after it has shot at your ship, but the damage has been done at that point. Have you played against the Clone Raiders with this one?

Except that Imperial ships largely suffer from only ever having things inside front arcs for 1 or 2 turns max a whole game, while Rebel ships are firing optimum arc from turn 2 till 6, plus rebel ships are far more maneuverable than the staple Imperial vessels, again a huge advantage, because once you are out of the ISD/VSD front arc, you are shooting its side/rear with usually more dice than it can return fire with, and they have the capability to stay in them arcs, with ease.

Demolisher is not capable of killing any full (health/full shield)capital ship in one round, it takes two minimum, and can't most expensive ships kill a capital ship in 2 rounds? I am pretty sure the front arc of an ISDII firing twice with a side arc, or an ISD I firing its front arc twice, pus a side arc will kill a (full health/full shield) capital ship, Hell even a VSD II with Dominator will kill a capital ship in 2 rounds, going last then first.

The issue is that being able to fire last in a round, and then first in the next, and that is not something exclusive to Demolisher, lots of choices there for PBR annihilation.

For the purposes of discussion, I will refer to Engine Techs/Demolisher's threat range as "Range D." D range is, optimally, equal to Long Range + Short range. In practice, it is slightly shorter than this, as you will often have to navigate to be able to reach your preferred target.

I will refer to Clontrooper's Demolisher build as the "Clonisher"

I will discuss: naked VSD 2, naked ISD 2, and Clonisher. No upgrades other than Demolisher with Engine techs can increase a ship's threat range into D-Range, so I will not consider them for this comparison.

Activation 1:

At D-Range, a naked VSD 2 does zero damage, causes no effects, and moves into long range. It is unlikely to get a double-arc with this movement.

At D-Range, a naked ISD 2 does zero damage, causes no effects, and moves into medium range. It may be able to get a double-arc with this movement.

At D-Range, a Clonisher does an average of 1*4+.75*2 = 5.5 damage on its first roll. This may involve 1-2 accuracies. In practice, it will usually do much more than this because of Ordnance Experts (I am ignoring Screed to simplify my example). Anecdotally, Clon did 8-10 points of damage on several shots, often multiple turns in a row.

It may remove the opponent's Brace, and it moves into close range. It is likely to get a double-arc with this movement, but its positioning is entirely irrelevant due to its title, so long as it isn't obstructed and doesn't ram another ship.

Activation 2:

At Medium Range, a naked VSD 2 does an average of .75*3= 2.25 damage. With a double-arc, its damage increases to 5*.75 =3.75 average. This can be increased slightly with Leading Shots or Enhanced Armaments. It will not cause status effects on the opposing ship. The VSD 2 is strictly inferior to the Clonisher for damage output and threat range purposes purposes.

At Medium Range, a naked ISD 2 does an average of .75*4+.5*4 = 5 damage. This will also include some number of accuracies. With a double-arc, its damage increases to 6*.75+ 6*.5 = 7.5 damage. On turn 2, after movement, with a double-Arc, for an additional 22 points, the ISD 2 does 2 more damage than the Clonisher did on turn 1.

At close range, the Clonisher does another 5.5 damage. It likely removes the opponent's brace, if it did not last turn.

The Clonisher then

(a) shoots from a side Arc based on the double-arc established last turn. This scores an average of 4 points of damage.

(b) moves and then shoots from a side arc. This scores an average of 4 points of damage.

For 22 points less, the Clonisher does 7.5 damage more than a naked ISD 2 over three shots and 2 activations .

For less points, the Clonisher does twice as much damage as a naked ISD 2.

It will usually do even more than this due to the dice manipulation involved.

The ISD 2 has the advantage of higher durability and a better worst-case scenario, even naked. It has the disadvantage of a lower speed, a larger footprint, and a higher command value.

tldr: The "Clonisher" (clon's demo build) provides grossly disproportionate threat range and damage to its cost, dealing twice as much average damage as the more expensive ISD 2.

Controper, have you run this list IRL? And if so, how did it work for you? I'm asking because I've found that what I do on Vassal doesn't always work on a table top, and vice versa.

I ran it 3 times IRL but it was before i was Really skilled with it.

I did win 1 game in like 8-2 vctory, but i lost the other 2 in 7-3 defeats, but that was mostly because i was underbid and ended up playing 2nd player

3 Armada games is a fair time commitment, but it doesn't strike me as enough to justify the list's power from a game design standpoint. Particularly as your learning experience boils down to "go first = win."

I'm not denying your skil. Other players have demonstrated the ability to lose, even without being out-activated. I would likely be one of them. Your use of the Raiders is doubtless a powerful element in your success.

But the list strikes me as much too much of a "Channel Fireball" scenario. It's not immensely challenging to play, and it wins the game, crushingly, if the opponent fails to tailor against it and play very carefully.

Did a similar scenario ever occur in X-Wing? Was there a list that could reliably destroy the opponent's best/most costly ship in a "single activation" (for those feeling pedantic: without allowing the opponent to respond) on turn 2-3?

Good analysis on the Clonisher. I like the name.

As a general thought, I'm curious if we'll see implications here for initiative bids. If the Clonisher does THAT much damage over other ships, then there's got to be some value in underbidding it in, especially in lists with ships that can significantly benefit from going first, in an effort to deny it some of its extra damage and/or possibly remove it before it can do much of anything.

Good analysis on the Clonisher. I like the name.

As a general thought, I'm curious if we'll see implications here for initiative bids. If the Clonisher does THAT much damage over other ships, then there's got to be some value in underbidding it in, especially in lists with ships that can significantly benefit from going first, in an effort to deny it some of its extra damage and/or possibly remove it before it can do much of anything.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Like Major Rhymer (who I dislike for much the same reason), the Demolisher breaks the rules in a way that allows it to punch way above its weight class and distorts the entire dynamic of the game. Every time a new Ordinance Upgrade or die manipulation card is released, Demolisher becomes more powerful because of how it uniquely abuses black dice. This results in either (a) a lack of competitive ordinance upgrades or (b) overly dominant Demolishers.

(Likewise, every future Imperial Bomber squadron will have to be balanced against Rhymer's threat-range warping power.)

Unfortunately, I doubt that FFG will back out unless we see the Demolisher winning Worlds repeatedly. They've committed to these Imperial black-die "cheats" pretty hard.

Edit: To clarify, as I've done a lot of complaining and I haven't actually addressed the original question: I do not believe that Clontrooper's list is invincible. It is simply too good.

I have been playing against a 3xVSD 1xRdr and a good Rhymer ball for a while.

I can make a game of it now, but that ability Demolisher has to reach out with a speed 4 move and a short range attack in one activation, then if it has first player activate again and run to somewhere safer. Generally the Demolisher does most of the damage, mix in APT and you have head knocking against wall levels of frustration at times.

Now take the following with a grain of salt, I haven't played against the "Clonisher" but have felt the games I have played are close.

The bid is a thing if you have a player with a list that has an activation advantage with Demolisher you have to try an underbid that list. You have a better chance to win if you go first as you take the opportunity for it to shoot off three arcs in a pair of uncontested activations. Clone Raiders are looking at a 13 points bid, I took 15 with me to a recent tournament. If you are going to lose the bid or not consider it then you may need to look at 6 activations.

If the list gets in front of you it will overtake your lead ship and give you a real pinch. This isn't so much about speed as it is turning, so yaw values matter. You should also consider how to project ahead with one portion of your ships and keep them in range as to only allow Demolisher 1 attack run. I haven't tested this, but the idea of attacking Demolisher in two waves, the first put pressure on him to react and the second limits his reaction. Seems OK, as an idea. If you can tactically put Demolisher between a rock and a hard place who knows.

This list of Clonetrooper5's isn't perfect, the interesting thing though is it pushes back on the "traditional 3 ship builds" and therefore creates a degree of discomfort in the meta in which it sits. You may win with and ISD/VSD/GSD or AF/AF/MC80 list now and again, but they are not the answer. I think this list puts pressure on the meta to move away from the comfortable and play around with new ideas. Small ships of both the Rebellion and Imperial are some of the strongest on bang for buck, I also love when a fleet of smaller ships goes head to head with another fleet with small ships.

I played around with the following list:

385/400 Points

MC80 + Reikeen (or Mon Montha) + Engine Techs + ECM + SW-7 Ion Batteries

Corvette B + Engine Techs and SW-7 Ion Batteries

Corvette B + Engine Techs and SW-7 Ion Batteries

Corvette B + Engine Techs and SW-7 Ion Batteries

Newbulon-B Support + Engine Techs + Turbolaser Reroute Circuits and Salvation

I then changed out the MC80 and looked towards:

380/400

MC30c Torp. + Mon Montha, Ordinance Experts + Assault Proton Torpedoes and Foresight

MC30c Torp. + Ordinance Experts and Assault Proton Torpedoes

Corvette B + SW-7 Ion Batteries

Corvette B + SW-7 Ion Batteries

Corvette B + SW-7 Ion Batteries

Newbulon-B Support + Engine Techs + Turbolaser Reroute Circuits and Salvation

With both lists there is a lot of wiggle room to put your own stamp on it and improve it beyond what I have. I may take the second list and drop a Corvette for A few X-Wings just to keep bombers off me for a turn or two, maybe even take a swipe at a ship.

Good analysis on the Clonisher. I like the name.

As a general thought, I'm curious if we'll see implications here for initiative bids. If the Clonisher does THAT much damage over other ships, then there's got to be some value in underbidding it in, especially in lists with ships that can significantly benefit from going first, in an effort to deny it some of its extra damage and/or possibly remove it before it can do much of anything.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Like Major Rhymer (who I dislike for much the same reason), the Demolisher breaks the rules in a way that allows it to punch way above its weight class and distorts the entire dynamic of the game. Every time a new Ordinance Upgrade or die manipulation card is released, Demolisher becomes more powerful because of how it uniquely abuses black dice. This results in either (a) a lack of competitive ordinance upgrades or (b) overly dominant Demolishers.

(Likewise, every future Imperial Bomber squadron will have to be balanced against Rhymer's threat-range warping power.)

Unfortunately, I doubt that FFG will back out unless we see the Demolisher winning Worlds repeatedly. They've committed to these Imperial black-die "cheats" pretty hard.

Edit: To clarify, as I've done a lot of complaining and I haven't actually addressed the original question: I do not believe that Clontrooper's list is invincible. It is simply too good.

Take the demolisher out with a Fireball/Bomberball and the list falls apart.

Take the demolisher out with a Fireball/Bomberball and the list falls apart.

Which is why the Instigator is in there.

If you're going to rely on bombers against this list, you need them dispersed so they can't get locked down by the Instigator for a turn.

Has anyone thought about how the tractor beam would effect this. By slowing down the glad

Has anyone thought about how the tractor beam would effect this. By slowing down the glad

This got mentioned earlier and I don't think it's a great plan given that Clon is stacking nav tokens on everything turn 1 and using navigate on the Demolisher as frequently as possible to abuse Engine Techs.

To add to Snipafist's comment, the list often operates just outside of Distance 5 before jumping in at speed 3/4 to hit you at close range.

It did get mentioned a page or so ago, and it basically amounts to: you probably won't get to use your tractor beams until after Demolisher has already performed its first double tap.

So, SomeKittens and I did a couple of games today where I built a Raider list using this kamikaze idea Clon seems to use:

Charge! (387)

Precision Strike // Hyperspace Assault // Superior Positions

GSD-I // Insideous / Ozzel / Engine Techs / Ordnance Experts / Intel Officer

GSD-I // Demolisher / Engine Techs / Ordnance Experts / Intel Officer

RDR-I // Expanded Launchers / Intel Officer / Ordnance Experts

RDR-I // Expanded Launchers / Intel Officer / Ordnance Experts

RDR-I // Expanded Launchers / Intel Officer / Ordnance Experts

With it I... managed to basically run over SomeKittens' list with three turns. With the loss of only the Demolisher.

So, yeah. The functioning idea here is to design your charge to start from out of range and rocket inward, decreasing the times the Raider has to defend. While the Raiders are punching well above their range, as long as they can survive one attack to punch again, they can succeed at what they set out to do.

But we tried this list against a second list more or less designed to kill it but still pretty good on its own, 3x AF/MKIIBs with Ackbar on an MC30, gunnery teams, XI7s, and ECMs. The only kill I got there was one of the A/Fs... entirely through ramming it.

Coming out of this run of lists I don't think Clon's list is invincible. While I did pretty well against that run-of-the-mill list, all the problems of the Raider will take them down. If all ships engage, if the game hasn't ended something like one turn after attacks have begun, the Raider crowd list won't win.

Because while the RDR list is throwing a huge amount of attack dice when they are able, I think at best they can survive only one direct attack, a second will kill them. And if the defending list can generate a single accuracy to prevent the Raider from using a brace, then Raiders live and die only by the dice luck of the ships they are attacking. Because beefy ships with tanky hulls are throwing massive dice pools out of their arcs, typically. So if these ships can punch out un-activated Raiders, that's massive attacks the RDR list is gambling on that aren't activating and aren't attacking.

So Clon's strategy seems to be race to range, then try to punch out ships with massive attacks, at least that's how I won with that list. And by having activation advantage you can move un-important ships that still stay out of range of the victims, then pounce on the victims where you're free to move without being shot at.

So to counter this, I have two thoughts:

First is to create a situation where you still have activations when the Raiders come in to intercept you. Mostly this is going to be trying to match Clon's numbers. Another way to do this is bouncing your activation so that you save a particular threatened ship for last, if for nothing else then to keep that threat alive and in a way, dictate the RDR's activation.

The second is to ensure that you have accuracy on hand. SomeKittens didn't for his second list, but when he did roll natural accuracy the RDRs had no defense against such massive ackbar-enhanced dice pools. Under them enough damage can be generated that brace cannot save them, and if you can leverage multiple attacks against single raiders, they'll go down.

I think facing this list you'll need to accept that Raiders will have at least one turns' worth of serious damage coming against one of your ships. LIght ships will really suffer against this, and the RDR swarm out-numbering part of a list will also make it suffer. However if your ships can tank enough, do enough damage, and ensure the quality of shots, then you need to focus on punching out Raiders that haven't activated yet to preserve the rest of the fleet.

Also, another thought I had was to take fighters. B-Wings for instance. If you don't activate them, but keep them at a specific distance so that they remain in the front arc of a raider but out of the side arcs, then the RDR is forced to sacrifice the huge front dice pool to attack the fighters. A RDR runner is going to be choosing the more dice option, so your fighters get free shots to punch through not-redirected shield arcs and push damage.

If you have Rogue Bombers on deck (like Firesprays) they can flutter immediately to any open side on the Raider and attack through it. 4 damage and the Raider is gone, which means it won't activate next round and do harm to your ships.

So... I don't think Clon's list is invincible. It's difficult because he has one more Raider than I did and has a gross number of attacks per turn with huge pools, but the ships still have all the vulnerabilities that turned me off to them in the first place. The list is gambling entirely on punching out enemy ships before you lose enough Raiders.

A twist on the list may be to change Screed for Ozzel, makes you almost immune to Tractor Beams and with Ord Experts, it's likely you'll get your crits anyway.

It's an innovative list and isn't as easy to counter as everyone thinks, but neither is it invincible, it's merely new and clever.

Respectfully, Norsehound, B's should be near-useless against Clon's list due to the inclusion of Instigator and the speed of his ships. Even if you can properly use them as mines, his Instigator will tie them down without breaking a sweat, letting the Demo instakill a ship of choice. This has been discussed.

I put together the Ackbar list, and it looks like it underbid the Clonisher list. That's definitely one way to beat the list!

I'm just a little frustrated to see the amnesia about Wave 1. Demolisher and ship-only lists were dominant during that period, too. I understand the desire to see diversity in the metagame, but properly piloted, it looks like a Clonisher/RDR list should push squadrons back out of the meta entirely (as Clon repeatedly beat Squadron-focused lists through out the WCs). Perhaps this is hyperbole, but with the exception of the Fireball, squadron lists are reliant on large, expensive carriers. The Clonisher will eat those squadron-focused upgrades as a tasty garnish to add to the rest of your dead carrier. Impetuous will ensure that you never have a say in that fact.

(I personally find it silly that Capital Ships are consistently faster than Squadrons, but that's the direction that FFG chose to take the game.)

This list challenges the metagame, if you play against it as you always play you will struggle. Time to try some new things.

So, SomeKittens and I did a couple of games today where I built a Raider list using this kamikaze idea Clon seems to use....

Question, what if you stayed at range and attacked a turn later? Those front/rear arcs on Rebels or the side/read arcs on the Imperials can't really hurt a ship at long range for much when it has an evade. All these ships can pull a 90 degree turn at speed 3 with navigation commands. So a little patience goes a long way. It is also worth noting that if you are going to overshoot you target you can probably ram him and get a Demolisher or Raider to double arc him in a hull zone that may not throw a huge number of dice.

I won't have the opportunity any time in the near future to test this against the Clonisher build, but could have several things going for it.

Fleet Summary Page (397 of 400 pts)

My thinking is that while it wouldn't have the initiative, Han's ability to be able to activate first regardless might be enough to throw the Clonisher fleet off it's game. The Torp Frigate has enough firepower to make it entirely possible to vape Demolisher with one close range side shot. Especially if either the Neb-B and/or Scout Frigate can soften it up a bit first.

How do you propose to get a close range shot on Demolisher without the initiative? You slide in for that sweet shot and he'll give you whatever shots he can before he moves off and out of range. Depending on how well you support the attack he may even slow to speed 1-2, give you a side arc shot the Engine Tech to medium range.

My thinking is that while it wouldn't have the initiative, Han's ability to be able to activate first regardless might be enough to throw the Clonisher fleet off it's game. The Torp Frigate has enough firepower to make it entirely possible to vape Demolisher with one close range side shot. Especially if either the Neb-B and/or Scout Frigate can soften it up a bit first.

How do you propose to get a close range shot on Demolisher without the initiative? You slide in for that sweet shot and he'll give you whatever shots he can before he moves off and out of range. Depending on how well you support the attack he may even slow to speed 1-2, give you a side arc shot the Engine Tech to medium range.

I will have both first (Han) and last ship activation. If placed right, there will be a ship in a covering position behind the Torp Frigate. And depending on which objective he chooses, The neb's first shot at could be 5 red + 2 black dice. I'm not saying I won't lose a ship to Demolisher, but placed right, it could be lured into a fire sack. With Hyperspace Assault, the Torp Frigate could hopefully be dropped in right behind Demolisher. Just like with Clontrooper's fleet, it would take practice to maneuver right. I am already thinking that tweaking it by dropping the Jaina's Light and the SW-7 upgrades and swapping the Corv-A to a -B, and adding in an A-Wing (to occupy the TIEs) would free up Han to better harass the capital ships.

Respectfully, Norsehound, B's should be near-useless against Clon's list due to the inclusion of Instigator and the speed of his ships. Even if you can properly use them as mines, his Instigator will tie them down without breaking a sweat, letting the Demo instakill a ship of choice. This has been discussed.

Instigator doesn't prevent fighters from attacking outright do they? They just have to attack Instigator. So, if you pod the B-Wings and place them in such a way to stay in the front arc of Instigator, during the fighter phase all four pummel the front arc. Unless all of them whiff, they can do enough damage to leave Instigator open to any capital attack to finish them off. If Demolisher doesn't finish off a ship via activation then your response is to punch Instigator out and that's one less Raider to deal with. The B-Wings can then flutter to another target and punch that down too.

Besides, if that doesn't work you space out your fighters such that Insitgator's distance bubble can't cover all of them.

Point being that Raiders can't suffer many attacks against them.

Has this fleet been flown in Real Life games at all or just on Vassal where micro managing arcs and range is very easy?

So much armchairism in here (in both directions). I'm surprised clon is not getting tired of it already

I highly doubt that some people who tout theories have played that much no offense...

It's part of the reason I didn't really believe in Raider viability until I decided to try putting some of those ideas into use. Practical experience told me at first Raiders sucked and conventionally, they still do. They're still weak and easily torched. But practical experience today with this ad-hoc list proved that there is some way you can use the Raiders after all...

As I just speculated in another thread though, I think the big bad of Clon's list is really that Demolisher and Screed-Ordnance expert assurance to maximize that and try to net 10 damage out of it, and directly threaten a brace. Then do it again on the next turn with first activation. Demolisher coming in can kick off that first attack you capitalize on in the next turn. Wallex can't help because you don't have activation either.