How come no one sees the "D" in my name?

Thus why I call you Mad.

Player skill is something I have been advocating since the beginning. Back when Darth Lupine was trouncing his area 10-0 consistently.

Player skill in this game can make up for a ton of perceived weakness.

Why are you calling Maa Mad? Is he angry? I don't think so. I've met him. He's a very nice guy; knowledgeable, polite, insightful. He wasn't shouting or yelling. You are just being incredibly rude. Shape up or ship out, Lyraeus.

Don't worry, Maaghmire. I got your back.

I think the list is fine and all, but I would argue its the PLAYER making the list not the other way around. I think what people have a strong knee jerk reaction to (me included) is the idea of "use this list and win" which implies a broken, unbalanced game (which we all know is patently untrue). If you put a novice or intermediate player behind that list most of the experienced players on here would be able to shred it with a list they are comfortable with.

As someone who very much enjoys clon's list - because it is fun to pilot, and also because I want to see what Raiders can achieve - I can vouch that the list itself is not invincible, as I've been crushed several times

Watching the VWC final clon's positioning was spot on, and that's what made an enormous difference: a good player will always do well, even with a less-than-optimal list, than an average/bad player will with a good/amazing list.

I for one am not sure. My list was also built to be first player, though I'm missing the Demolisher title to make it as brutal. I would guess with the same matchup I lose 9 out of 10 vs clon. If I'm first player I think the odds go to more to me winning 6-7 out of 10 or maybe even swinging more in my favor. For my tournament list, clon's fleet was a bad matchup and I wasn't able to adapt to beat it. I think with practice I could win (after more losses), but it would be an uphill fight.

btw I love the new Addition to your Sig

Do JJ or Mag think, with their same lists and more time, they could beat Clon's list?

I for one am not sure. My list was also built to be first player, though I'm missing the Demolisher title to make it as brutal. I would guess with the same matchup I lose 9 out of 10 vs clon. If I'm first player I think the odds go to more to me winning 6-7 out of 10 or maybe even swinging more in my favor. For my tournament list, clon's fleet was a bad matchup and I wasn't able to adapt to beat it. I think with practice I could win (after more losses), but it would be an uphill fight.

Sure. Not with any kind of consistency though. But I'm sure if we played enough I'd win eventually. Maybe he makes a mistake or something, we all do eventually. My tournament list really did not match up well at all though, and being that thoroughly out-activated is rough. I know there was some sentiment about me bringing the ISD up and trying to catch the raiders...but at most I could only ever catch one. Because the others either activate at the end of the turn I arc them, one could activate the beginning of the next, and they are maneuverable enough given his propensity to spam nav until he's ready to shoot means he can avoid the front. All that would have netted me in my two ship list is that I wouldn't have been able to activate the bombers I needed to kill Demolisher after her initial pass, which means she gets a second one. The aggressive push to the backside of his fleet would probably work much better in a list with more activations though.

On a tangent- I see people mentioning bombers in this thread, and I do think they can be effective against his list, but its important to recognize the role instigator plays in that list. It exists to keep your bombers out of the fight by forcing them to shoot at a very low priority target at a key point when they would rather be shooting at just about anything else. Which is why, despite the presence of Boosted Comms and Rhymer in my list, I hung back and allowed him to come to me. Had I pushed up with them, all that would have happened is he would have locked them up on the other side of the board and Demolisher would have gotten away. If you are using bombers, you need to have enough to reliably punch through 6 damage on a raider and enough ship that spending a turn doing that to instigator isn't an issue. And remember, he has two ties, so if you have no anti-squad at all, he can use those to keep your bombers even from punching through instigator.

The good news is there are already tools in the game that would significantly harm the efficacy of this list. They have already been mentioned. Riekaan, another 5 ship list, Lando in the right place, underbidding could all help. Blissex if he just activated at the top of the turn instead of the activation.

I for one am not sure. My list was also built to be first player, though I'm missing the Demolisher title to make it as brutal. I would guess with the same matchup I lose 9 out of 10 vs clon. If I'm first player I think the odds go to more to me winning 6-7 out of 10 or maybe even swinging more in my favor. For my tournament list, clon's fleet was a bad matchup and I wasn't able to adapt to beat it. I think with practice I could win (after more losses), but it would be an uphill fight.

btw I love the new Addition to your Sig

Gotta sneak in the Trek references were I can!

Do JJ or Mag think, with their same lists and more time, they could beat Clon's list?

I for one am not sure. My list was also built to be first player, though I'm missing the Demolisher title to make it as brutal. I would guess with the same matchup I lose 9 out of 10 vs clon. If I'm first player I think the odds go to more to me winning 6-7 out of 10 or maybe even swinging more in my favor. For my tournament list, clon's fleet was a bad matchup and I wasn't able to adapt to beat it. I think with practice I could win (after more losses), but it would be an uphill fight.

As someone who lost to Clon in pod play (and still managed to get to the semis), I doubt I'd have been able to beat him either. Admittedly, I was not using an optimized list. However, even with my list that won the last tournament, I doubt I could do it. Clon's list is quite uniquely suited to demolishing (lol) 3 ship lists. Like JJ, I'm tempted to see where the Rieekan rabbit hole takes me.

Like JJ, I'm tempted to see where the Rieekan rabbit hole takes me.

A buddy of mine runs Rieekan from time to time and the dude is basically the bus driver because he takes me to school. He's got a very powerful ability when leveraged correctly and he is a great counter to black-dice fleet in particular.

Armchair admirals like to complain about his ability doesn't do anything if none of your ships are destroyed, but I'm pretty sure whenever someone says that and means it, Admiral Screed just starts cackling maniacally.

I think the big lesson to take is this.

Pick one thing you want your list to do, and then optimise everything else to make that one thing the best it can be.

So bombers you say. Well spam bombers with Rhhmer Dengar and triple VSD's then.

Clon cant take out your carrier in one shot as there is no single carrier. He also cant avoid your spam.

Can you fly it well enough to win. Debatable.

How do I catch the replay?

Edit: found it

Yes, give up Armarda forever /s

I see the list doing zip vs Rhymer/4 Firesprays/Dengar/others. And if your carrier is running and not driving head on in Black dice what then? Nothing has range besides an exposed Demolisher.

I hope people pick it up for the upcoming store champs. It's a hard list to play, one that is not obvious how to pilot if you netdeck.

You should probably watch the Vassal replay of Clon vs miedomeda[/size]

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)

- Demolisher ( 10 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

1 Boba Fett ( 26 points)

2 Firespray-31s ( 36 points)

He pretty much went right into that fireball and blew up an ISD, GSD, and Raider before Demo died. No one is saying its invincible but as others have pointed out several times he beat several bomber heavy lists in the tournament, rhymerballs, fireballs, and bwings.

I did not elaborate. This is not an answer to Firespays. It is ignoring them. That composition is not good at punishing MSU because it lacks mass rouge, the squadron phase dominance a how you even out activation advantage. Boba is no better than a regular FS because black will miss more.

Not trying to take away from the win. I love it. A massive fork in the eye of pretty much everyone was saying about the meta and embarrassing to "Raider will never work".

Boba is no better than a normal Firespray, because he gets a black dice?!? You are aware blue dice have the same % chance to cause ZERO damage as a black dice, and 2 blue dice will never ever get you 3 damage, yet 1 blue and one black will, perhaps your maths is a bit off? Boba is most assuredly better than a standard Firespray, which is why he costs 26pts and not 18pts.

As for the OP, the power of Clons fleet has been stated many times already here, it all works on player one, and double taps with last/first, yet I ran I similar list but it only had 4 ships, and each of my opponents in the tournament had 5 ships each, which meant not only could I not get double taps in, because they were getting 2 ship moves after mine, it was **** hard to get Demolisher into a position to do its job, without risking losing it before it did it.

So with that being said, Clon facing someone with a 6 ship fleet, will struggle to get that killer Demolisher doing it's thing. (And I am not armchair admiral here, I have no idea how i'd do vrs Clon, I do have the utmost respect for him though.)

Edited to add : I just checked on a fleet builder, AFMK II Ackbar, TRC, AFMK II TRC, CR90A TRCx4 is 400 pts on the dot, and 6 ships all with TRC and Chief Squidboy himself. (But this is countering a known list, which is always easier in hindsight, I play the same guy regular, he has been lots of ships minimal squadrons, I have been using lots of ships, no squadrons, so to change it up I went double ISD I with Vader+4 Tie Advanced, and Rhymer+4Tie bombers, with all the bells and whistles to make my ISD's super carriers....and lo behold my friend turns up with 3 rebel ships and NINE X-wings, needless to say my brief foray into a heavy squadron list was an unmitigated disaster, they got devoured by 9 x-wings. but them are the breaks when you do not know what you will be facing.)

well at least I now know what clone is running in our local store championships

you live in spokane?

Great topic!!!

First of all congrats to Clontroper5.

Second - I bet I could lose with this list. Therefore it is not invincible!

Seriously, my VVGR list has been able to hard counter every demolisher it has faced, precisely because those demolishers were in three ship lists. As second player that meant I could keep two ships in reserve to tank demolishers initial strike and then hit it back hard before it could activate first next round.

So this list appears very dangerous to me, because of the straight 5 activations and first. Also it is hard to counter in a general sense because going 4 ships + dedicated bombers would be risky considering all the other lists that did have fighters that could be encountered.

Potential solutions, as Clontroper said, would be to engage aggressively so that multiple raiders were threatened. Big gunnery team ships are probably best for this.

I wonder if a Worlds winner style solution of obliquely retreating assault frigates with a decent fighter defence would also work? With Ackbar and rogue YT2400s you would think this build type woud be even better than the one that won Worlds. Sure, if the raiders can cut it off its going to be messy, but the guy who won Worlds was facing engine tech gladiators as well wasn't he?

Great topic!!!

First of all congrats to Clontroper5.

Second - I bet I could lose with this list. Therefore it is not invincible!

Seriously, my VVGR list has been able to hard counter every demolisher it has faced, precisely because those demolishers were in three ship lists. As second player that meant I could keep two ships in reserve to tank demolishers initial strike and then hit it back hard before it could activate first next round.

So this list appears very dangerous to me, because of the straight 5 activations and first. Also it is hard to counter in a general sense because going 4 ships + dedicated bombers would be risky considering all the other lists that did have fighters that could be encountered.

Potential solutions, as Clontroper said, would be to engage aggressively so that multiple raiders were threatened. Big gunnery team ships are probably best for this.

I wonder if a Worlds winner style solution of obliquely retreating assault frigates with a decent fighter defence would also work? With Ackbar and rogue YT2400s you would think this build type woud be even better than the one that won Worlds. Sure, if the raiders can cut it off its going to be messy, but the guy who won Worlds was facing engine tech gladiators as well wasn't he?

I don't think Engine Techs fit on the GenCon special (300 point bid back then), but I could be wrong.

Your larger point is well-taken, though. Retreating ships are in some ways even more viable now, with Boosted Comms to make it easier to get squadron activations in while moving obliquely. Rogue YT-2400s would not need that same sort of handling, of course.

Hmm.... is this reason for Advanced Projectors to come back?

probably...

so against an assault frigate:

demo: here's 10 damage for you, intel your brace

AF: no matter, ill redirect it and spend 10 shields

demo: cools

NEXT TURN

demo: here's 7 more damage for you, intel your brace

AF: hmmmm ill burn through brace, taking the damage to 4, and put two to the rear shields, and two to the hull

demo: nice, here's 6 more for you...

AF: *explodes*

and that's not even the somewhat likely scenario

demo: heres 7 damage, accuracy your brace(no ecm) and intel your redirect, and i got two more attacks coming after this, one with the possibility of accuracy...

so unless clon's list makes up a significant percentage of the meta, can you really forgo ECM that is valuable against 90-95% of the current field?

So from what I have read "the list" wants to be first player. If this is the case then I know what I'm going to take

• Most Wanted
• Fire Lanes
• Superior Positions

Cant imagine either of those are good choices. But I could be wrong.

So from what I have read "the list" wants to be first player. If this is the case then I know what I'm going to take

• Most Wanted
• Fire Lanes
• Superior Positions

Cant imagine either of those are good choices. But I could be wrong.

Depends. Most wanted probably helps take out the demolisher, but opening salvo may also be useful? (two extra blacks with a 4 or 5 ship list and some source of rerolls may result in a lot of dead raiders early)

Hyperspace assault may also be a good option? I can't imagine that many raiders liking something coming in from their flank and engaging multiple ships. It would tae them at least two turns to turn around and re engage.

Raiders hate minefields also

So from what I have read "the list" wants to be first player. If this is the case then I know what I'm going to take

• Most Wanted
• Fire Lanes
• Superior Positions

Cant imagine either of those are good choices. But I could be wrong.

Depends. Most wanted probably helps take out the demolisher, but opening salvo may also be useful? (two extra blacks with a 4 or 5 ship list and some source of rerolls may result in a lot of dead raiders early)

Hyperspace assault may also be a good option? I can't imagine that many raiders liking something coming in from their flank and engaging multiple ships. It would tae them at least two turns to turn around and re engage.

Raiders hate minefields also

the trouble with Opening Salvo Is you might not get the chance to use it on Demo where Most Wanted works with everything every time. plus you also give 5 ships more dice you might not want to give them.

Hyperspace Assault could also be good but Fire Lanes lets you decide where his ships are going and you also have tha chance to rob victory with victory tokens

Every thing hates Mine Fields. (except Dodonna ) the reason I would take Superior Positions is it give more control back to the second player and a chance to get Victory tokens but im also a Rebel player so I can get more out of it

I have not seen many raiders on tables but I am a firm believer in that Gladiators are under costed by about 5/6 points. - especially when compared to MC30's - you can argue you can use MC30's at long range with Ackbar, but if Ackbar didn't exist the MC30 struggles to be that close range brawler it wants to be without a Brace, and its 2 redirects can be argued as close to useless if you go vs anyone using XI7's (which is very popular in my local area).

I also agree with those talking about a bid, I think the lowest I'd ever really want to go is 394, and I usually use 395/396 as my standard.

I would like to see this list go up against 3 Whales with Gunnery teams and XI7, Ackbar as Admiral, 4B's, HWK, 3X

Throwing 5 reds twice at different ships per whale can be a lot of damage - it can also be none as red dice can be fickle, but odds are you will get minimum 2 or 3 on your roll before defense tokens, and this is after squad activated B-wing's go in.

But what if I concede all my matches? Not so invincible now, is it?

I have not seen many raiders on tables but I am a firm believer in that Gladiators are under costed by about 5/6 points. - especially when compared to MC30's - you can argue you can use MC30's at long range with Ackbar, but if Ackbar didn't exist the MC30 struggles to be that close range brawler it wants to be without a Brace, and its 2 redirects can be argued as close to useless if you go vs anyone using XI7's (which is very popular in my local area).

I also agree with those talking about a bid, I think the lowest I'd ever really want to go is 394, and I usually use 395/396 as my standard.

I would like to see this list go up against 3 Whales with Gunnery teams and XI7, Ackbar as Admiral, 4B's, HWK, 3X

Throwing 5 reds twice at different ships per whale can be a lot of damage - it can also be none as red dice can be fickle, but odds are you will get minimum 2 or 3 on your roll before defense tokens, and this is after squad activated B-wing's go in.

This is almost the exact list Clon was attempting to counter when he made it. I can all but guarantee that firepower will barely be able to touch him. I've seen that match played. Again, his formation and activation count are just as important as Demolisher. Against a three AFII fleet, he WILL kill one before you can touch Demolisher with ship firepower. The simple fact is speed 4 (or speed 3 and ETs) can and will out range you. Plus, XI7s are rather pointless against him since he has a single redirect between 5 ships. The B-Wings are a good wrinkle to the Ackbar gunline, but you have to be very careful with instigator running around.

I have not seen many raiders on tables but I am a firm believer in that Gladiators are under costed by about 5/6 points. - especially when compared to MC30's - you can argue you can use MC30's at long range with Ackbar, but if Ackbar didn't exist the MC30 struggles to be that close range brawler it wants to be without a Brace, and its 2 redirects can be argued as close to useless if you go vs anyone using XI7's (which is very popular in my local area).

I also agree with those talking about a bid, I think the lowest I'd ever really want to go is 394, and I usually use 395/396 as my standard.

I would like to see this list go up against 3 Whales with Gunnery teams and XI7, Ackbar as Admiral, 4B's, HWK, 3X

Throwing 5 reds twice at different ships per whale can be a lot of damage - it can also be none as red dice can be fickle, but odds are you will get minimum 2 or 3 on your roll before defense tokens, and this is after squad activated B-wing's go in.

This is almost the exact list Clon was attempting to counter when he made it. I can all but guarantee that firepower will barely be able to touch him. I've seen that match played. Again, his formation and activation count are just as important as Demolisher. Against a three AFII fleet, he WILL kill one before you can touch Demolisher with ship firepower. The simple fact is speed 4 (or speed 3 and ETs) can and will out range you. Plus, XI7s are rather pointless against him since he has a single redirect between 5 ships. The B-Wings are a good wrinkle to the Ackbar gunline, but you have to be very careful with instigator running around.

You won't be able to get the B-wings out far enough to touch him before Demolisher has chased down and murdelized one or two of your AF2's. I just got done playing this game against him: I pushed my B's as far out as I could as fast as I could, and Instigator shuts them down just long enough for Demo to hop over them and throat-punch the carrier line.

And even if you could get a full round of those B's firing into a concentrated arc on Demolisher before it hit you, you couldn't take it down. Even if you roll hit/crit-hit on every single shot, it takes 5 B-wing shots minimum to take down a Gladiator.

This is almost the exact list Clon was attempting to counter when he made it.

You won't be able to get the B-wings out far enough to touch him before Demolisher has chased down and murdelized one or two of your AF2's.

This is almost the exact list Clon was attempting to counter when he made it.

You won't be able to get the B-wings out far enough to touch him before Demolisher has chased down and murdelized one or two of your AF2's.

Man, I must have been doing Somthing Right because my opponents are all arguing how tough the list (and my skill with the list) is

Well, you just won the Vassal World Cup with that list which is no mean feat. It's not like they've just picked a random fleet you came up with and decided to have an argument about it; It is a world champion's list!

Wait. . . Someone says MC30's are only strong with Ackbar? Ohhh another chance to plug my evil Dodonna the Oppressor list!

MC30's are as expensive as they are because they get the Turbolaser slot. That is the main reason at least. It has more shields which is not as good as hull but can extend the life of things.

The Turbolaser slot is so important because of TRC's, XI7's. . . Imagine a Demolisher that hit you with Expanded Launchers for 10 damage, Intel Officer'd your Brace and you can o lys redirect 1 point of damage. . .