Just like everything else in this game, and many others..

Player skill, player knowledge, and player skill and knowledge when driving a specific list is much more important than just the list itself.

I can put a paintbrush in a engineer's hand, but I don't expect him the get the most use out of it. If I gave the same paintbrush to the painter who designed, perfected, and used that same paintbrush (or variant of) a hundred times prior to that, then we might see some spectacular results.

I've played and seen clone basically playing the same list in different variations for several months. This is the fruit of that labor, and testament to the determination of one player who worked very hard to make the list happen. Very cool.

I'd second BMcDonald's suggestion. The answer isn't as simple as "Rhymerball--*drop mike*" At least not if your opponent has any practice and a strategy.

That said, Mad's Rhymerball did serious damage to Demolisher , while illustrating that squadron shots during the squadron phase really are the only reliable way to get damage in on Demolisher between its last-first ship activations (unless the second player also has five activations--what a novel concept). So that might be food for thought right there. But that means taking Rogue Firesprays, which is an expensive proposition, or lots of bombers and lining them up in advance (as Mag did) to pummel Demolisher when it closes.

I haven't kept up on the Vassal tournament as much.

Clon, have you run this against a TRCR-90 list? Demolisher would eat the corvettes, but I wonder if they could kill the Raiders fast enough to offset the advantage?

The closest was JJs' TRCR/TRCR/Gallant Haven/Admonition list, which didn't really lean hard enough into the spam-TRC thing to serve as a good measuring stick for its effectiveness against this list.

I'll also add that, of all the spam lists, a raider spam list seems the best equipped to deal with TRCs, at least in the early game. With two evades, it's awfully hard to lock down both, which means if the CR-90 is firing from its preferred distance, in the vast majority of cases its double-hit TRC shot is going to fly harmlessly by. In the highly-unlikely event you land double-accuracy and have a TRC-double, the Raider simply braces it down to one damage. That's a really low return on a 7 point turbolaser investment.

Once you're in close, the Raider's evades aren't useful anymore, but neither are the CR-90's (unless you have Mon Mothma). The Raider still has the brace to use against a close-quarters shot, while the Raider's offensive firepower is significantly increased (2 blues, four blacks with Ordnance Experts and Screed is an ungodly amount of damage at close range, especially if one of the blues comes up with an accuracy to tap the CR-90's lone redirect).

The CR-90 can do the same thing, of course, albeit with fewer blue dice and more fickle attack dice (for CR-90As) or more blue dice and a lower damage ceiling (CR-90B). A CR-90 one-shot of a raider at close range with TRCs is doable, but you still need pretty good rolls on your remaining red dice, and 2 accuracies from your blues (for dat brace), even with a double-arc shot. A Raider I front arc with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, and Screed, has a good chance at one-shotting a CR-90, even if it's the only arc on target.

I could see the game becoming a game of "keep away," where the CR-90s pelt the Raiders with TRC-shots (which the Raiders shrug off), and then run away from the Raiders' dangerous front arcs. While Demolisher lurks in the background, seeking whom it may devour...

Also, I've been almost completely MIA due to X-Wing, store tournies, job opportunities, and general IRL. XCOM2 and the upcoming GW BFG game doesn't make things much easier.

Smooth sailing though everyone!

/sigh. . .

This list is not invincible until Clontroper5 climbs the range and wins Worlds with it.

I believe its not the list but the player. It would take a lot of skill to fly that list like Clon did to make it a winner.

Kinda like putting a .700 nitro express rifle together with a highly skilled rifleman. Because we've all seen that youtube clip where nobody can handle it!

I'm just going to repeat the earlier comment that people seem to be AMAZING against clontroper5's fleet in their imaginations. Just absolutely WRECKING it.

How do you like them apples, clontroper5? Armchair admirals already totally know how to beat your fleet EASILY and they're doing it in their minds RIGHT NOW. They don't have time to review the games you played, the opponents you faced, or commentary on how everything is supposed to work, they are already receiving their imaginary accolades for their imaginary victory.

You heard it here first, folks. If you come up against clontroper5 in a competitive event, the secret tech to winning is to challenge him to a DUEL IN THE REALM OF IMAGINATION.

All silly hyperbole aside*, I'm always surprised at the lack of nuance in reactions (both for and against) to this kind of thing. It's a strong fleet design. It utilizes a lot of tech that makes black dice ships work. It manages to both out-activate and regularly grab first player with numerous ships that can exploit those benefits one way or the other flexibly. It has its weaknesses of course, but it's an interesting concept.

*I wish to make it clear I'm directing ridicule at those who claim they can just slam-dunk this no sweat. People who have legitimate questions or are wondering about specific match-ups or possible counter-tech are being productive community members and enhancing the discussion.

Snip,

I think the "oh my god, I could easily defeat this..." is due to the OP question. The fact is, the list is not unbeatable. Simple. Clon is clearly a bad ass player and practiced a lot and did well with the list. He would likely do just as well with ANY list. That's how good players roll.

Most of the "imaginative destruction" is due to the fact that...the list can be beat. That was the question.

I would really like to see what happens when the fleet goes up against a Rieekan list with 5 activations as both 1st and 2nd player. If Clon was 1st I think he can still pull out a close victory. 2nd I think its a loss.

I think the better question players should be asking themselves now that they have a list in front of them is:

How will their current tournament lists fair against a list like this?

Also, I'm not caught up at all with the tournament itself, but who and what lists did clon fight against?

Not to take away from clon of course, but regardless of tournament, there is always going to be some luck factor in terms of drawing the right players and matchups. I think that's a very important metric to analyze and study well.

I could see the game becoming a game of "keep away," where the CR-90s pelt the Raiders with TRC-shots (which the Raiders shrug off), and then run away from the Raiders' dangerous front arcs. While Demolisher lurks in the background, seeking whom it may devour...

Kinda what I would imagine also. The CR-90 player can win if he can get the Raiders chasing into medium range, where the Evades become significantly less effective.

It would be fascinating to watch, which is why I was curious if it had happened.

A few quick notes, as someone who has played against someone who likes a Gencon-special style list with similar properties and was reading the thread:

1. Bombers alone is not enough, because these ships shred you fast, especially if you are low ship count yourself. IF you intend to beat this list with bombers, you need Rhymer + Boosted Comms (ideally supported with Firesprays), as what you really need is to get the bombers far enough out that they shoot at Clon once, and then he's still not entirely on you the next turn, and you shoot again. Most Rhymerballs are not well-piloted or designed enough for this to work, but a properly composed ball could work. A Rieekan bomber list could potentially work similarly. Because of Instigator you cannot rely on pure bomber retaliation, you also have to have them in a form that allows board control (Rhymer / Rieekan).
2. As second player, your best strategy is usually extreme cowardice. Yes, Demolisher can move, shoot, move, but if you are kiting Demolisher away and putting it in a position where to chase down your cowardly ship and shoot you expose it to enough return fire to obliterate it in a single turn, and given that your ships are cheaper and weaker than Demolisher so you like that trade, that's how you win. My CR90 spam list consistently beats this kind of list, even going second, but it's because I would accept a 5-5 draw if the other guy never closed because all I am going to do is run run run run since at range, I have TRC and double evade, therefore I win. Getting close is a trap. Never, ever do it. Never. Not even once. As Shmitty was saying just above me*, you want the Raider in medium range, which a skilled player is going to work overtime to avoid, so in reality, you have to be willing to chip away incrementally at long range and make sure every Corvette either has a path to escape each turn OR if you put it where it can be destroyed, they have to commit to do that in a way where your retaliatory strike takes more points from them than you lost (it helps that Corvettes are cheap).
3. Underbidding this list would cripple it, given equivalent player skill.
4. I would be very interested to see this list played against a side-stepping Ackbar list going second with 4+ activations. I'm not sure it would be enough, but that would be a fascinating matchup in the hands of skilled players.

I do think this is a very anti-meta list, which is why it works.

* also fascinating would be a MM list with an MC30 Admonition, as that ship would be nigh-impossible to one shot for the Clon list, and that ship returning fire would likely one-shot one of Clon's ships.

I could see the game becoming a game of "keep away," where the CR-90s pelt the Raiders with TRC-shots (which the Raiders shrug off), and then run away from the Raiders' dangerous front arcs. While Demolisher lurks in the background, seeking whom it may devour...

Kinda what I would imagine also. The CR-90 player can win if he can get the Raiders chasing into medium range, where the Evades become significantly less effective.

It would be fascinating to watch, which is why I was curious if it had happened.

That Clon does so well, kind of lay to rest the "Raider dosn't work" talk.

The Raider does work in the hands of a competent player.

That the list he plays is invincible, well... No list is Invincible or a default win.

In the hands of an "Incompetent" player or a lot of blank die rolls, the list can fail.

So has anyone else played the exact same list and won per default, every time they used it???

And will some other competent player not eventually "Find a weakness and exploit it" with another "invincible" list???

I have it Clon, but I am a total luddite! I cannot figure it out..hehehe!

Riha was gonna train me, or if you wanted to schedule an evening to teach a dummy, I would love it!

I accept the challenge with the training caveat! haha..

that's fine (although we may not get a proper "sample" since I will have a advantage due to my vassal experience)

I am free most evenings at 6:00 pm pst

Could we get a stream?

... I would actually be pretty happy to be beaten by clon and his list. =3

He would likely do just as well with ANY list. That's how good players roll.

I shall dispute this!

I have it Clon, but I am a total luddite! I cannot figure it out..hehehe!

Riha was gonna train me, or if you wanted to schedule an evening to teach a dummy, I would love it!

I accept the challenge with the training caveat! haha..

that's fine (although we may not get a proper "sample" since I will have a advantage due to my vassal experience)

I am free most evenings at 6:00 pm pst

Could we get a stream?

probably not, but we will see I guess

however i will save a vlog of it, for those of us that have vassal anyway

OF COURSE success is determined by player skill. Give Clon's list to a 6 year old and will they be as dominant? The list does not play itself. Conversely, Clon has not won every Vassal tournament hosted here either; but he hasn't always used this list.

So, given that (say the final 4) participants are all in the same tier skill level; why was Clon's worst game 9-1? Is he THAT much better than every other participant (I understand he loses to JJ often enough with a different list)? This is his best performance in any Vassal tournament. He is a great player and very familiar with his list; but wouldn't all of the top 4 participants need to be? Say he was more familiar, would the difference in familiarity account for all the 10-0/9-1 outcomes? Do JJ or Mag think, with their same lists and more time, they could beat Clon's list?

So the post was intended as, "so, Clon clobbered all these good players that I'm sure were all at his skill and ability level; if a tournament player of that caliber knew to plan for this list, played by another tournament-caliber player, what would he/she do"?

Hmm.... is this reason for Advanced Projectors to come back?

Hmm.... is this reason for Advanced Projectors to come back?

probably...

....and yeah, I'd like to see that streamed too...

The list is fine in practice, but does it stand up in theory?

How come no one sees the "D" in my name?

How come no one sees the "D" in my name?

Player skill is something I have been advocating since the beginning. Back when Darth Lupine was trouncing his area 10-0 consistently.

Player skill in this game can make up for a ton of perceived weakness.

Do JJ or Mag think, with their same lists and more time, they could beat Clon's list?

I for one am not sure. My list was also built to be first player, though I'm missing the Demolisher title to make it as brutal. I would guess with the same matchup I lose 9 out of 10 vs clon. If I'm first player I think the odds go to more to me winning 6-7 out of 10 or maybe even swinging more in my favor. For my tournament list, clon's fleet was a bad matchup and I wasn't able to adapt to beat it. I think with practice I could win (after more losses), but it would be an uphill fight.