hehe...

Thanks! I have no idea even where to start. How do we "link" up? Voice chat? If you give me a brief step by step to get connected, Id appreciate it!

Cant tonight, but I could start around 9 on Saturday or Sunday? (Have a lil four year old monster that needs to get in bed first!)

@BMc - I am not arguing anything..hehe... I was just putting out my opinion Clon will very likely wipe me...but, we will see

Demo with engine tech and a banked nav token can go from speed 1 to effective speed 4 in one go.

If out activating, demo can take out your best ship with only squadron response to weather. You might kill it afterwards, but your best ship will die first.

hehe...

Thanks! I have no idea even where to start. How do we "link" up? Voice chat? If you give me a brief step by step to get connected, Id appreciate it!

Cant tonight, but I could start around 9 on Saturday or Sunday? (Have a lil four year old monster that needs to get in bed first!)

@BMc - I am not arguing anything..hehe... I was just putting out my opinion Clon will very likely wipe me...but, we will see

No worries. I do highly recommend you watch his games before you play so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about and be prepared. That Demo will eat pretty much any ship if it gets last/first activation. Good luck!

Oh, I totally understand the deployment/activation issue.

My point is with three ships and ten squadrons, all those raiders and glad get deployed FIRST. Then, whichever way they are facing...you DONT face that way. Speed three, trailing bombers...etc..etc..

I would love to play against it. I have played against very similar builds and a similar-ish one from the rebel perspective with the mc30s and corvettes. It is my opinion, that all ship builds are sub optimal. A cloud of bombers will wreck raiders...and glads...

So, he faced 3 lists of the "3 ships and 8-10 squadrons" archetype:

Truthiness (who, BTW, won the last Vassal tournament), 2x VSD carriers, Demolisher, and a bunch of TIE Bombers

Me, 2x AF2, Yavaris, and a bunch of B-wings

CaptICT, Independence, Yavaris, Salvation, and a bunch of B-wings

...especially if they have no red dice and spend 3-4 turns even getting within range of your capital ships.

It does not take that long to cross long range at speed 4. It takes, in fact, one turn to do so.

It is undeniably NOT difficult to avoid ship on ship action if you simply put effort into it.

It is actually very deniable, because I put effort into it and Demo still ate me for breakfast. And I am very good at avoiding ship on ship action, going so far as having relied on it in place of taking ECM on my carriers for the entirety of Wave 2 so far, with great success.

I would even go as far to say that it could be very likely that no shots would be had (except maybe the one first activation demo) by the capital ships.

You would be catastrophically wrong.

We can go back and forth all day on how you could totally have beaten Clon without knowing it was coming when you built your list and specifically tailoring to beat it, but only facing him in a tournament will determine the validity of your claim. Show up for the next Vassal tournament and show everybody how it's done.

Edit: in the time it took me to type this, a challenge has been issued and accepted. Awesome! I am very interested in seeing this game.

Problem is that with 3 ships and ten squadron, most of your squadrons are placed before the gladiator, and as discussed you need the squadrons deployed to take out the gladiator.

Problem is that with 3 ships and ten squadron, most of your squadrons are placed before the gladiator, and as discussed you need the squadrons deployed to take out the gladiator.

also alot of people seem to be forgetting Instigator, which is actually a very effective counter to Bomber lists.

and one more thing, if you manage to get your bombers out ahead where they are bombing my ships and i am not Shooting at you, those raiders are going to start shooting the bombers unless you have Rhymer but even then Instigator can and will likely catch the Rhymer ball pinning in place for the other ships, and trust me the Squadrons are not going to last long. then you are stuck running from the raiders and Demolisher while i have probably only lost Instigator and taken some minor damage on other ships.

basically this fleet is well equipped to deal with Bombers so your Answer to beat it does not lie there.

I don't think anyone is saying the the list is "easy" to beat, but I think what people refuse to believe is that a list is "unbeatable"

those things are MILES apart.

Problem is that with 3 ships and ten squadron, most of your squadrons are placed before the gladiator, and as discussed you need the squadrons deployed to take out the gladiator.

also alot of people seem to be forgetting Instigator, which is actually a very effective counter to Bomber lists.

and one more thing, if you manage to get your bombers out ahead where they are bombing my ships and i am not Shooting at you, those raiders are going to start shooting the bombers unless you have Rhymer but even then Instigator can and will likely catch the Rhymer ball pinning in place for the other ships, and trust me the Squadrons are not going to last long. then you are stuck running from the raiders and Demolisher while i have probably only lost Instigator and taken some minor damage on other ships.

basically this fleet is well equipped to deal with Bombers so your Answer to beat it does not lie there.

Challenge accepted. I will make squadrons work against that damned list if it takes me until wave 3. Now where did I put Rieekan...

I haven't kept up on the Vassal tournament as much.

Clon, have you run this against a TRCR-90 list? Demolisher would eat the corvettes, but I wonder if they could kill the Raiders fast enough to offset the advantage?

I couldn't resist.

A few points from a PM discussion:

Well the list is very hard to beat if your 2nd player if it is played well.

That said a few things to increase your chances:

-Be aggressive, this might seem odd to say against such a Aggressive list itself but remember non of the ships can take a hit. What this means is Jumping up to speed 3 rather early and trying to catch multiple raiders in your Killzones to guarantee a kill with your first activation (since first player can save 1 Ship) this is obviously hard to do since the 5 activations will make it hard to predict where the Raiders will be.

-boosted comms/rogue+ Rhymer to attack demolisher turn 1 in the deployment zone and hopefully kill it turn 2 Before he murders something

-run away, my raiders generally get shots off by Waiting in your front arc for you to move closer so by running away (especially with assault frigates and mc80s) you Will limit the amount of damage that you will take while still getting shots off. Now the problem is that demolisher will not care and the raiders could always double activate to smack you

I would give relatively similar advice to a player attempting to beat a TRC/CR-90 swarm.

Good job here with the list Clontroper5. But more than that, good job learning to fly it so well.

This is how my Vader Duet would have ran things. Deploy on the center-line at speed 2 and jump to 3 when needed. I would expect to lose one of the ships but I think each could take several of the Raiders down limiting the activation advantage. It is the only way I can think of that would work atm. . .

Yeah I would be the middle one. with the rhymer going for the demo. In my experience just 3 firesprays and rhymer firing (boosted comms activation from my ISDII) and some decent rolling along with a solid front arc or (if lucky) double arc with the ISD (even at red range) will typically cinder a gladiator. Again, this hinges on hitting at least average damage. Would go slow until the right time and then go from speed 0 or 1 to speed 3 with my ISD and Demo (Ozzel) to try and catch even 1 raider and then I would run run run the rest of the game and rogue it up with my rhymer turret. First contact would be unbelievable clutch and would determine the rest of the game.

The issue will come down to speed. Oh and the dice. . . I say Clon nail Mad's VSD with 10 damage in a single attack. . .

I haven't kept up on the Vassal tournament as much.

Clon, have you run this against a TRCR-90 list? Demolisher would eat the corvettes, but I wonder if they could kill the Raiders fast enough to offset the advantage?

The closest was JJs' TRCR/TRCR/Gallant Haven/Admonition list, which didn't really lean hard enough into the spam-TRC thing to serve as a good measuring stick for its effectiveness against this list.

I haven't kept up on the Vassal tournament as much.

Clon, have you run this against a TRCR-90 list? Demolisher would eat the corvettes, but I wonder if they could kill the Raiders fast enough to offset the advantage?

The closest was JJs' TRCR/TRCR/Gallant Haven/Admonition list, which didn't really lean hard enough into the spam-TRC thing to serve as a good measuring stick for its effectiveness against this list.

Hmmmm sounds like shmitty wants clon to go against his 6 ship list. . . I want clon to go against my Dodonna the Oppressor list. . .

Problem is that with 3 ships and ten squadron, most of your squadrons are placed before the gladiator, and as discussed you need the squadrons deployed to take out the gladiator.

also alot of people seem to be forgetting Instigator, which is actually a very effective counter to Bomber lists.

and one more thing, if you manage to get your bombers out ahead where they are bombing my ships and i am not Shooting at you, those raiders are going to start shooting the bombers unless you have Rhymer but even then Instigator can and will likely catch the Rhymer ball pinning in place for the other ships, and trust me the Squadrons are not going to last long. then you are stuck running from the raiders and Demolisher while i have probably only lost Instigator and taken some minor damage on other ships.

basically this fleet is well equipped to deal with Bombers so your Answer to beat it does not lie there.

Instigator counters intel, doesn't it...nice, I might have to make room for that on my otherwise naked raider

Also, I tend to keep my bombers close, if my bombers are in blue die range so is my ISD with my tricked out demo lurking around.

I think the list is fine and all, but I would argue its the PLAYER making the list not the other way around. I think what people have a strong knee jerk reaction to (me included) is the idea of "use this list and win" which implies a broken, unbalanced game (which we all know is patently untrue). If you put a novice or intermediate player behind that list most of the experienced players on here would be able to shred it with a list they are comfortable with.

So to answer the OP, who specifically said "Is Clontroper5's build invincible" I would answer a resounding NO (so would clon, I think) but if the question were "is Clontroper5's build with Clontroper5 driving it invincible" well, that could be a solid maybe-to-yes

Last night Madaghmire beautifully setup a squadron minefield for Demolisher. (He was running a VSD with Motti, Avenger ISD and a large anti squadron/bombing force)

Clon had no choice but to go in and take his first shot at Madaghmire's VSD with Motti on board. In the squadron phase EVERY squadron took a shot at the Gladiator and actually did pretty good work. I think Mads would have given his left light saber to trade in Soontir and Mauler for three TIE bombers.

I think the only way is to hope for awesome bomber rolls and kill Demo then.

I wonder if it would have helped to move out the bombers to maximum range and try get demolisher in rd2 already, with rogue firesprays coming back in rd 3 for demolisher, again helped by rhymer. Now before you tore into me, not sure from memory if that was even possible the way Mads fleet was set up.

edit: just noticed that clon himself suggested that with boosted coms. I rplied to the post directly without reading to the end of the thread first. i feel its the best chance if in reach.

Did Clon not face anyone who loaded up on Intel officers or accuracy?

Did Clon not face anyone who loaded up on Intel officers or accuracy?

Yes, give up Armarda forever /s

I see the list doing zip vs Rhymer/4 Firesprays/Dengar/others. And if your carrier is running and not driving head on in Black dice what then? Nothing has range besides an exposed Demolisher.

I hope people pick it up for the upcoming store champs. It's a hard list to play, one that is not obvious how to pilot if you netdeck.

Last night Madaghmire beautifully setup a squadron minefield for Demolisher. (He was running a VSD with Motti, Avenger ISD and a large anti squadron/bombing force)

Clon had no choice but to go in and take his first shot at Madaghmire's VSD with Motti on board. In the squadron phase EVERY squadron took a shot at the Gladiator and actually did pretty good work. I think Mads would have given his left light saber to trade in Soontir and Mauler for three TIE bombers.

I think the only way is to hope for awesome bomber rolls and kill Demo then.

as far as I remember his shots were not that great. of the three blue ones, only one hit. the bombers, not sure now, but not much more than average, if at all. dengar I think was out of reach.

I wonder if it would have helped to move out the bombers to maximum range and try get demolisher in rd2 already, with rogue firesprays coming back in rd 3 for demolisher, again helped by rhymer. Now before you tore into me, not sure from memory if that was even possible the way Mads fleet was set up.

edit: just noticed that clon himself suggested that with boosted coms. I rplied to the post directly without reading to the end of the thread first. i feel its the best chance if in reach.

It wasn't the best rolls but it wasn't the worst either. I am not sure if Clon made a slight mistake by not having Instigator in range to speed up and engage most of the bombers or not but if Instigator was a little more far forward it could have moved up and engaged half of those bombers after he moved Demolisher up. Even if you have say 4 firesprays and major Rhymer. Your ISD with expanded hangar bays activates and you activate all 5 to fly out and alpha the demo you are not likely going to kill it with 3 shields on the front, 1 brace, a redirect and an evade. If you do move those forward he will just move Instigator in and engage them all. In the games he played vs more heavy bomber wings I remember seeing him move Instigator in to engage most of the bombers and take one for the team so to speak as Demo goes cruising right by and blows up the carrier and everything else after that. I think the title of the thread was just more to spark discussion rather than saying (OMG its invincible, FFG please nerf.)

This is just the typical knee jerk reaction to a good player playing a well designed fleet. Everyone was all a flutter about the Gencon special after it did so well but in several tournaments I was in after Gencon before Wave 2 hit I saw and played against the Gencon special and it didnt do so well because of the match ups.

In the end this game is about three factors:

1. Player Skill

2. Build construction

3. Match-ups

In my opinion Match-ups have the greatest impact on the game if the other two factors are close. Armada still is a rock paper scissors game.

Yes, give up Armarda forever /s

I see the list doing zip vs Rhymer/4 Firesprays/Dengar/others. And if your carrier is running and not driving head on in Black dice what then? Nothing has range besides an exposed Demolisher.

I hope people pick it up for the upcoming store champs. It's a hard list to play, one that is not obvious how to pilot if you netdeck.

You should probably watch the Vassal replay of Clon vs miedomeda

Yes, give up Armarda forever /s

I see the list doing zip vs Rhymer/4 Firesprays/Dengar/others. And if your carrier is running and not driving head on in Black dice what then? Nothing has range besides an exposed Demolisher.

I hope people pick it up for the upcoming store champs. It's a hard list to play, one that is not obvious how to pilot if you netdeck.

You should probably watch the Vassal replay of Clon vs miedomeda

the replay in question

Bmc, are you secretly Clons press secretary and chief of his fan club? hehe...

Bmc, are you secretly Clons press secretary and chief of his fan club? hehe...

SSSSHHHHH!!! (its Secret)

Bmc, are you secretly Clons press secretary and chief of his fan club? hehe...

I was actually just starting to think people are going to think I'm like Clon's brother or his alternate account.... :-0

Actually no but I have been inspired by his fleet and watched the games several times trying to learn what he does as I am trying to design not a copy but something similar. I'm either doing a ISD1, 2GSD, 1RDR, or 2GSD, 3 RDR variant of it. I think it has just showed me that you don't need a heavy fighter wing if you play it right. Mainly Instigator and 2 ties allows you to prevent the bombers from killing you before you table them.

I prefer to play a more aggressive style and like ships over heavy squadron so it fits me perfect