Lando and APs and and ECMs should be enough to make a MC80 stand up tolerably.

If, as the math indicated, you're looking at an average of 24 damage via the triple, an MC80 may not be durable enough. Its total shields are only 15 (4x3+3 = 15; 15+8 = 23).

The issue with the "Clonisher Test" is that it reduces the game to a dice/numbers game. Can you let the Demo swing hard and survive? Well, maybe you get to contest. Can you not? Well, better pack away those capital ships.

ECMs don't have much value against Demolisher. Odds are the odd red accuracy will be used to Screed a black to a hit+crit.

You'll probably need them against the rest of the lists you face in a tournament, however.

Lando and APs and and ECMs should be enough to make a MC80 stand up tolerably.

If, as the math indicated, you're looking at an average of 24 damage via the triple, an MC80 may not be durable enough. Its total shields are only 15 (4x3+3 = 15; 15+8 = 23).

The issue with the "Clonisher Test" is that it reduces the game to a dice/numbers game. Can you let the Demo swing hard and survive? Well, maybe you get to contest. Can you not? Well, better pack away those capital ships.

ECMs don't have much value against Demolisher. Odds are the odd red accuracy will be used to Screed a black to a hit+crit.

You'll probably need them against the rest of the lists you face in a tournament, however.

As Valca mentioned, ECMs are generally useless against a many-activation black-dice Imperial fleet because the fleets can't rely on getting Accuracy results. If anything, a clontroper5-style Imperial build is a reaction against the popularity primarily of 3-ship Ackbar fleets and secondarily 2-ship ISD lists that are designed to just stack dice and upgrades on their capital ships and send them forward to hope to win through sheer attrition and upgrade cards. The clontroper5 style list doesn't care about Electronic Countermeasures, it generally avoids the big juicy shots that make XI7s powerful, and only rarely can Gunnery Teams get a second meaningful shot on a target. It's basically an anti-meta build where the meta is "heavy ship and upgrade skew."

Getting both first and last activations is pretty strong, especially against those common fleet types. Bringing a balanced fleet with enough smaller escort ships can at least give you last activation (assuming you go second and have 5 activations), but that requires a more balanced build and splurging less on upgrades. Speaking from experience running a 5-activation fleet, the Demolisher has to be a lot more careful if it cannot assuredly get the final activation. It requires keeping an eye on your opponent's activations at all times, though.

So first off I apologize for not getting out my maneuver tool and testing this; how does a victim maneuvering closely parallel to their table edge affect Demolisher's attack run options? It's predictable, but taking advantage of the obstacle free perimeter and keeping close to the edge in an echelon can force an opponent to collide and even potentially run off the map.

I've done that against MC30s coming at me and severely limited their options, forcing collisions against my more robust medium and large ships.

Getting both first and last activations is pretty strong, especially against those common fleet types. Bringing a balanced fleet with enough smaller escort ships can at least give you last activation (assuming you go second and have 5 activations), but that requires a more balanced build and splurging less on upgrades. Speaking from experience running a 5-activation fleet, the Demolisher has to be a lot more careful if it cannot assuredly get the final activation. It requires keeping an eye on your opponent's activations at all times, though.

And the worst part is that if, as we saw in the Vassal finals, this just smashes fighter lists, it'll do the opposite of fighting the meta. How do you think it'll handle Akbar lists with, say, 3-4 Assault Frigates and 1-3 CR90s and a 15-20 point bid? If you don't have to worry about Air wings because of how unfairly Clonisher out ranges and out damages them, what's to stop the King of Red from recognizing that, yes, he's very good at killing ships?

Although to be fair, I ran a relatively light bomber wing.

Although to be fair, I ran a relatively light bomber wing.

Under half of allotment? I recall 4 Firepsrays and Rhymer. Am I incorrect?

Two firesprays and rhymer. I also had two black dice coming from Dengar and an ADV.

The only thing I have seen that can withstand the Clonisher Demo build (Demo+Glad I+expanded launchers+Intel+ordinance experts+engine-techs) is a Motti ISD. I know an advanced projector MC80 can but have yet to actually play one of those.

I took my own 5 ship activation build with 2 glads and 3 raiders that I was inspired by Clon with to my local store championship this past weekend and won with 29 points and 1001 MOV. I faced 2 lists with 2 ISD2's and Motti. Clonishers initial target was Motti's ISD and it took the normal triple tap and then 1 additional round of firing the next turn with the Demo and/or one of my raiders in the front.

As someone else said the 2X engine tech ram is also great to finish one off.

i love my double ISD list. It does really well overall but this list definitely worries me. I picked up extra intel officers and proton torpedoes off ebay, now to pick up the raiders next week so i can play it and practice against it.

I think my 2 ISD list will do ok vs it, but its simply because the list does ok vs a lot of things it shouldnt be ok against. this will come down to squadrons and the ISDs one shotting ships in one activation before getting trounced.

2 ISD's are ok and can be good vs a lot of lists however I don't think there is really anything you can do against someone who has practiced the 5 activations list you won't get many medium range shots out of your front arc. I use 2 GSD's that flank both of your ISD's. You will never get a front arc shot on Demo with the last/first. I keep the 3 raiders in front of you but make sure I stay out of medium range for your first front attack then you move forward into medium/close for my raiders to hit you. My 3rd game I lost 1 raider due to the Imperial player being smart and going up to speed 3 to go right in front of one of my raiders before my flanking Glad could do enough damage to kill it. I had to activate Demo first on the Motti ISD2 and double tap so he was able to activate his other ISD and vaporize my raider infront of him. MY flanking Demo then finished off the ISD the next turn as did another raider on the Motti ISD. Demo went down to 4 firesprays due to me having to reduce speed to 0 to not fly just off the map. If it wasn't for that I would have only lost 1 raider in 3 games.

I think your best bet as a 2 ISD list verse this list are set your ISD's to speed 3 and charge forward. You have to break the raider line before the 2 GSD's can blow you up but with engine techs on both GSD's and first player advantage you won't be able to run away so I am not sure if that would even work. It's a tough list to beat if you are second player against it.

I typically deploy in a way where my non motti ISD can get in front of my motti one if needed. its all theoretical. I remember when the GenCon special was the be all end all and i beat people locally who had spent a lot of time practicing it. Ive ordered the upgrades i was lacking and can borrow the raiders froma buddy im gonna try the list just for ***** n giggles but i have supreme confidence in my ISDs as long as I dont derp on their commands.

So first off I apologize for not getting out my maneuver tool and testing this; how does a victim maneuvering closely parallel to their table edge affect Demolisher's attack run options? It's predictable, but taking advantage of the obstacle free perimeter and keeping close to the edge in an echelon can force an opponent to collide and even potentially run off the map.

I've done that against MC30s coming at me and severely limited their options, forcing collisions against my more robust medium and large ships.

I tried this in my game against Clontrooper, but I think it's best done with rebel gunlines flying horizontally along the border of the map. I know for sure it didn't work for my poor imps. Theoretically it can work, because the Clonisher relies on jumping in at great speed from out of red range right into his black range. Still, I think it's easier said than done, because that Clonisher has all the time in the world to do his thing, plus it would make for some really uninteresting and unfun games.

Getting both first and last activations is pretty strong, especially against those common fleet types. Bringing a balanced fleet with enough smaller escort ships can at least give you last activation (assuming you go second and have 5 activations), but that requires a more balanced build and splurging less on upgrades. Speaking from experience running a 5-activation fleet, the Demolisher has to be a lot more careful if it cannot assuredly get the final activation. It requires keeping an eye on your opponent's activations at all times, though.

I'll go ahead and contest this claim. It isn't a 'balanced list.' It's almost the definition of a cheese list. It's whole gimmick is "I'm going to kill your best ship and there's essentially nothing that you get to do about it." Should the requirement for running ISD be 4 naked Raiders so that you get to activate your ISD more than one or two times? What about squadron heavy lists? I proposed a squadron based lists that might be able to handle it (the Motti Super-Rhymerball), but what about rebels and their sluggish squadrons? Is it reasonable for one title to enforce a 3 CR90 tax on any rebel squadron list that doesn't underbid by like 20-30 points? At that point, you may as well switch entirely to a swarm, because activations are just THAT STRONG.

And the worst part is that if, as we saw in the Vassal finals, this just smashes fighter lists, it'll do the opposite of fighting the meta. How do you think it'll handle Akbar lists with, say, 3-4 Assault Frigates and 1-3 CR90s and a 15-20 point bid? If you don't have to worry about Air wings because of how unfairly Clonisher out ranges and out damages them, what's to stop the King of Red from recognizing that, yes, he's very good at killing ships?

If you are good with both your activations and your placement, the Clonisher will have to pay a price if it takes a bite. It can pick off ships around the edges, but going into the core, especially with reserves behind, can be dangerous. I also want to make it clear that it requires both the placement of the Demolisher as well as two turns' worth of work. The Clonisher can gobble up a ship on turns 2+3 and another on turns 4+5 potententially - so generally 2 ships unless it gets a lucky late-game jump on a weak ship or it gets fed a ship it can take out in a single volley (usually a CR90 or Raider, I would think). Its favored prey is over-upgraded Assault Frigates and the like. It gets less cost-effective against smaller ships that require more than one volley to destroy and/or those with less upgrades piled on. Like I said, in an age of Ackbar, it's an anti-meta build. The Instigator is there to deal with the other thing you see a lot nowadays, and that's a big bomber+Intel blob all in one place.

I would like to see a cogent argument as to how clontroper5-style fleets are "cheese" but the fleets they counter that require even less finesse to use well (boring Ackbar conga lines, "can you stop this Fireball/Jan Ors blob?" squadron lists, etc.) are fine. Rieekan is a HARD COUNTER to clontroper5's list. This has been stated several times already and by clontroper5 himself. Even if you don't want to run Rieekan, fleets that have more activations and aren't so extremely predictable like a standard Ackbar list have much better chances. But I keep seeing Rebels coming back to this same loop over and over:

A: "How can I beat this with Ackbar?"

B: "You can't, at least not reliably. It has several features that strongly counter a standard Ackbar list."

A: "This is the worst thing ever, I can't keep running Ackbar!"

B: "You can try running other configurations that do better against it, though. Rieekan is a strong counter."

A: "Are those things Ackbar?"

B: "No, they are not."

A: (continue screaming)

Welcome to how Imperial players have felt about Ackbar throughout all of wave 2 until just about now. You either build to stand a chance against it or you accept you probably won't win a competitive event.

I bet Dorrins Ackbar - MC80, AFK, 3xCR90A fleet could give it a good go.

The only thing I have seen that can withstand the Clonisher Demo build (Demo+Glad I+expanded launchers+Intel+ordinance experts+engine-techs) is a Motti ISD. I know an advanced projector MC80 can but have yet to actually play one of those.

I took my own 5 ship activation build with 2 glads and 3 raiders that I was inspired by Clon with to my local store championship this past weekend and won with 29 points and 1001 MOV. I faced 2 lists with 2 ISD2's and Motti. Clonishers initial target was Motti's ISD and it took the normal triple tap and then 1 additional round of firing the next turn with the Demo and/or one of my raiders in the front.

As someone else said the 2X engine tech ram is also great to finish one off.

i love my double ISD list. It does really well overall but this list definitely worries me. I picked up extra intel officers and proton torpedoes off ebay, now to pick up the raiders next week so i can play it and practice against it.

I think my 2 ISD list will do ok vs it, but its simply because the list does ok vs a lot of things it shouldnt be ok against. this will come down to squadrons and the ISDs one shotting ships in one activation before getting trounced.

2 ISD's are ok and can be good vs a lot of lists however I don't think there is really anything you can do against someone who has practiced the 5 activations list you won't get many medium range shots out of your front arc. I use 2 GSD's that flank both of your ISD's. You will never get a front arc shot on Demo with the last/first. I keep the 3 raiders in front of you but make sure I stay out of medium range for your first front attack then you move forward into medium/close for my raiders to hit you. My 3rd game I lost 1 raider due to the Imperial player being smart and going up to speed 3 to go right in front of one of my raiders before my flanking Glad could do enough damage to kill it. I had to activate Demo first on the Motti ISD2 and double tap so he was able to activate his other ISD and vaporize my raider infront of him. MY flanking Demo then finished off the ISD the next turn as did another raider on the Motti ISD. Demo went down to 4 firesprays due to me having to reduce speed to 0 to not fly just off the map. If it wasn't for that I would have only lost 1 raider in 3 games.

I think your best bet as a 2 ISD list verse this list are set your ISD's to speed 3 and charge forward. You have to break the raider line before the 2 GSD's can blow you up but with engine techs on both GSD's and first player advantage you won't be able to run away so I am not sure if that would even work. It's a tough list to beat if you are second player against it.

I typically deploy in a way where my non motti ISD can get in front of my motti one if needed. its all theoretical. I remember when the GenCon special was the be all end all and i beat people locally who had spent a lot of time practicing it. Ive ordered the upgrades i was lacking and can borrow the raiders froma buddy im gonna try the list just for ***** n giggles but i have supreme confidence in my ISDs as long as I dont derp on their commands.

I want to state first off I am not trying to be argumentative so I hope you don't take it this way. There really isn't a good way to screen the Clonisher if you only have 2 activations. Even if you deploy at speed 1 on your edge of the map you can be reached at the end of turn 2 for the first hit, then double tap. Another advantage of the list is 6 deployments so unless you are going naked ISD's with at least 8 fighters you won't be able to lay down your last capital ship before I can lay down the Clonisher on the side of your 2 ISD's I want to. I do recommend you practice against it and maybe you can come up with a deployment using only 2 ships that can screen it but I haven't come across it with ISD's yet. Its not invincible and you have to fly it right, but when you do generally 2 activation lists are at a huge huge disadvantage.

Im new to Armada, but I love theory crafting and have been sucking up as much info about this game as I can lately.

A Rieekan list seems like the best matchup for this. I was thinking an MC80, 2 MC30s, and some Y-Wings+Luke. Youd have to be skillful with positioning and planning, but if you do it right the Demolisher will be forced to at best trade itself.

And the worst part is that if, as we saw in the Vassal finals, this just smashes fighter lists, it'll do the opposite of fighting the meta. How do you think it'll handle Akbar lists with, say, 3-4 Assault Frigates and 1-3 CR90s and a 15-20 point bid? If you don't have to worry about Air wings because of how unfairly Clonisher out ranges and out damages them, what's to stop the King of Red from recognizing that, yes, he's very good at killing ships?

If you are good with both your activations and your placement, the Clonisher will have to pay a price if it takes a bite. It can pick off ships around the edges, but going into the core, especially with reserves behind, can be dangerous. I also want to make it clear that it requires both the placement of the Demolisher as well as two turns' worth of work. The Clonisher can gobble up a ship on turns 2+3 and another on turns 4+5 potententially - so generally 2 ships unless it gets a lucky late-game jump on a weak ship or it gets fed a ship it can take out in a single volley (usually a CR90 or Raider, I would think). Its favored prey is over-upgraded Assault Frigates and the like. It gets less cost-effective against smaller ships that require more than one volley to destroy and/or those with less upgrades piled on. Like I said, in an age of Ackbar, it's an anti-meta build. The Instigator is there to deal with the other thing you see a lot nowadays, and that's a big bomber+Intel blob all in one place.

I would like to see a cogent argument as to how clontroper5-style fleets are "cheese" but the fleets they counter that require even less finesse to use well (boring Ackbar conga lines, "can you stop this Fireball/Jan Ors blob?" squadron lists, etc.) are fine. Rieekan is a HARD COUNTER to clontroper5's list. This has been stated several times already and by clontroper5 himself. Even if you don't want to run Rieekan, fleets that have more activations and aren't so extremely predictable like a standard Ackbar list have much better chances. But I keep seeing Rebels coming back to this same loop over and over:

A: "How can I beat this with Ackbar?"

B: "You can't, at least not reliably. It has several features that strongly counter a standard Ackbar list."

A: "This is the worst thing ever, I can't keep running Ackbar!"

B: "You can try running other configurations that do better against it, though. Rieekan is a strong counter."

A: "Are those things Ackbar?"

B: "No, they are not."

A: (continue screaming)

Welcome to how Imperial players have felt about Ackbar throughout all of wave 2 until just about now. You either build to stand a chance against it or you accept you probably won't win a competitive event.

I understand your distaste for Ackbar ...

But I promise you ...

Opening Salvo/Fire Lanes/Minefields

378/400

MC30 Scout - 69

Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - 7

Gunnery Teams - 7

Admonition - 8

Ackbar - 38

---

That Ackbar Isn't bad ...

Opening Salvo/Fire Lanes/Minefields

378/400

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

XI7 Turbolasers - 6

Admiral Ackbar - 38

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

XI7 Turbolasers - 6

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

XI7 Turbolasers - 6

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

XI7 Turbolasers - 6

---

At killing ships

Opening Salvo/Contested Outpost/Minefields

399/400

Admiral Ackbar - 38

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

Assault Frigate Mark 2B - 73

Gunnery Teams - 7

CR-90 B - 39

CR-90 B - 39

CR-90 B - 39

---

Is this the world in which you want to live? Where Armada becomes a game dominated by Ackbar's unholy power of pure dice? Where Squadrons become a brutal autocracy ruled by the unmerciful (and extremely long ) fist of King Rhymer? I've played Ackbar Lists, and while these are extreme examples, this is where a world with the Demolisher sends us. Perhaps there's a rebel squadron list that can handle it tolerably. Perhaps even one without Rieekan, but I wouldn't bet on that.

The Clonisher list is a cheese list because it is a gimmick. It relies entirely on refusing your opponent the right to play the game. Take away the ability to shoot back. Take away the ability to brace or move or do anything while you kill a large chunk of their list? Go second or get out activated, and you're almost guaranteed to lose, often crushingly so. Even its inventor suffered whenever his opponent was allowed to, horrifyingly, actually play the game .

Activation advantage is a problem. I played against it with a 2xISD1 and Raider list. Having your opponent go last and then first is quite unpleasant, and I wouldn't recommend it! But taking 24 damage (sometimes less, sometimes more ) in a near-deterministic fashion simply because you didn't play a swarm or bid 20-30 points is not fair . Heck, playing a swarm doesn't even reduce the damage you take. It just reduces the impact of that damage.

Now, I'm having fun with this conversation, and it's provoking me into all sorts of interesting lists, but I want Armada to be a game that feels like Star Wars . I don't want it to go down the path of X-Wing where the meta becomes dominated by the Six-Eyed Zorbian Snail-Cruiser or whatever minor, ridiculous ship FFG decides to turn into the hottest new thing. I want a game where people quake in terror at the power of an ISD captained by a Sith Lord, not the goofy, bucktoothed mini-star destroyer piloted by the antagonist of a mediocre 1980s cartoon.

Multiple people have done the math. From "super-long" range (and from long range, and pretty much any range other than Rhymerball range, really), the Clonisher, properly activated, punches harder than any other ship in the game. It isn't even close. For 90-odd points, this is not balanced .

The list still isn't invincible.

The Clonisher list is a cheese list because it is a gimmick. It relies entirely on refusing your opponent the right to play the game. Take away the ability to shoot back. Take away the ability to brace or move or do anything while you kill a large chunk of their list? Go second or get out activated, and you're almost guaranteed to lose, often crushingly so. Even its inventor suffered whenever his opponent was allowed to, horrifyingly, actually play the game .

I gladly take all rights away from ALL who oppose the Empire!

I gladly take all rights away from ALL who oppose the Empire!

Hear hear! Now, we just have to figure out a way to shut down the production of those pesky CR-90s, and the world will be ours! Well. Mostly yours. I'll carry the space-palm fans for when you take breaks.

This thread makes me want to punch a puppy puking a rainbow

Getting both first and last activations is pretty strong, especially against those common fleet types. Bringing a balanced fleet with enough smaller escort ships can at least give you last activation (assuming you go second and have 5 activations), but that requires a more balanced build and splurging less on upgrades. Speaking from experience running a 5-activation fleet, the Demolisher has to be a lot more careful if it cannot assuredly get the final activation. It requires keeping an eye on your opponent's activations at all times, though.

I'll go ahead and contest this claim. It isn't a 'balanced list.' It's almost the definition of a cheese list. It's whole gimmick is "I'm going to kill your best ship and there's essentially nothing that you get to do about it." Should the requirement for running ISD be 4 naked Raiders so that you get to activate your ISD more than one or two times? What about squadron heavy lists? I proposed a squadron based lists that might be able to handle it (the Motti Super-Rhymerball), but what about rebels and their sluggish squadrons? Is it reasonable for one title to enforce a 3 CR90 tax on any rebel squadron list that doesn't underbid by like 20-30 points? At that point, you may as well switch entirely to a swarm, because activations are just THAT STRONG.

And the worst part is that if, as we saw in the Vassal finals, this just smashes fighter lists, it'll do the opposite of fighting the meta. How do you think it'll handle Akbar lists with, say, 3-4 Assault Frigates and 1-3 CR90s and a 15-20 point bid? If you don't have to worry about Air wings because of how unfairly Clonisher out ranges and out damages them, what's to stop the King of Red from recognizing that, yes, he's very good at killing ships?

If you are good with both your activations and your placement, the Clonisher will have to pay a price if it takes a bite. It can pick off ships around the edges, but going into the core, especially with reserves behind, can be dangerous. I also want to make it clear that it requires both the placement of the Demolisher as well as two turns' worth of work. The Clonisher can gobble up a ship on turns 2+3 and another on turns 4+5 potententially - so generally 2 ships unless it gets a lucky late-game jump on a weak ship or it gets fed a ship it can take out in a single volley (usually a CR90 or Raider, I would think). Its favored prey is over-upgraded Assault Frigates and the like. It gets less cost-effective against smaller ships that require more than one volley to destroy and/or those with less upgrades piled on. Like I said, in an age of Ackbar, it's an anti-meta build. The Instigator is there to deal with the other thing you see a lot nowadays, and that's a big bomber+Intel blob all in one place.

I would like to see a cogent argument as to how clontroper5-style fleets are "cheese" but the fleets they counter that require even less finesse to use well (boring Ackbar conga lines, "can you stop this Fireball/Jan Ors blob?" squadron lists, etc.) are fine. Rieekan is a HARD COUNTER to clontroper5's list. This has been stated several times already and by clontroper5 himself. Even if you don't want to run Rieekan, fleets that have more activations and aren't so extremely predictable like a standard Ackbar list have much better chances. But I keep seeing Rebels coming back to this same loop over and over:

A: "How can I beat this with Ackbar?"

B: "You can't, at least not reliably. It has several features that strongly counter a standard Ackbar list."

A: "This is the worst thing ever, I can't keep running Ackbar!"

B: "You can try running other configurations that do better against it, though. Rieekan is a strong counter."

A: "Are those things Ackbar?"

B: "No, they are not."

A: (continue screaming)

Welcome to how Imperial players have felt about Ackbar throughout all of wave 2 until just about now. You either build to stand a chance against it or you accept you probably won't win a competitive event.

Ummmm this is just the Gen con special tweaked this is how rebs have felt since wave one

I think that, indeed, clontrooper5's list is invicible, and that it currently isn't and probable will never be countered ! Like Darth Vader said in Episode V : you are beaten, it is useless to resist.

Just kidding ! I think that if Clontrooper5 proved something is that he is one hell of a player to be able to pace himself with such short range ships and that the Raiders aren't half bad as many people thought If we analyse Clon's list very coldly, we can see that it has a major comfort zone but several aspects that it is possible to exploit :

1) It hasn't got a great squadron defense. Sure, he has 3 TIE Fighters to tie things up and the Raider's 2 AS dice isn't too bad, but throwing 3 to 4 squadrons on 1 Raider will crack its shields open with relative ease.

2) It is vulnerable to large attack pools with accuracies, due to mainly having small ships that rely on their single Brace which is heavily shut down.

3) It is suprisingly flimsy at medium-clos range : The Raiders' Evade tokens won't save it at close medium, which is also where attack pools will be larger. But at long range, it can take a beating.

4) It is vulnerable in the squadron phase : Clon's activation advantage banks on being able to wait until all ships have been activated to set up his next turn activation without being shot at. Rogues and squadrons that are able to respond to that by being able to attack in the squadron phase are something he will probably want to avoid.

5) It is deceptively defensive. Short range dice have a surprising defensive value, while they require more work (initiative, activation advantage, etc) to be used offensively. I'm sure clon's list loves nothing more than other short range lists !

6) It will have trouble catchin up with fast fleets. Aside from Demo, it will have trouble applying damage on elusive fleets that kite and swirl around. So, if Demo is target painted and killed, the adversary can just focus on not dying.

Not saying this to diminish any accomplisment by Clon's on his well deserved victory !

1) he has AMAZING squadron defense. yes, he has 3 tie fighters to tie things up where he needs... but 2 black die, with ordinance expert (which he runs) gives an almost 90% chance to do 2 damage per turn to an area of affect (usually to at least 2 squadrons at a time). then with concentrate fire adding a 3rd die, makes an 80% chance to do 3 damage to 1 squad, and a 90% chance to do 2 damage to a 2nd,3rd,4th etc..... then you multiply that by 4 raiders.... i'm sorry, by YOUR MATH alone, you will need 16 squads (which is impossible) and i still don't think that would be enough. especially when each squad is doing .5 damage a turn to the raider (unless theyre bombers, in which case its 1) while it is returning 2-3 damage per turn.

2-3) yes, it has low hitpoints, but high mobility... if you get a big mc80 broadside on a raider its because he is letting you (which usually means he is trading the raider for something better.... like your mc80). basically, yes it is short range, but it is high mobility, so you cant say positioning is a negative thing for a raider when it has absolute choice where it is positioned.

4) hence the 3 tie fighters.

5) actually, he doesnt care what list you have because he has an answer for it. its the classic alexander the great anvil and hammer strategy.... he makes a wall of raiders (anvil) and adds pressure with the demolisher (hammer). because he usually moves 1st and last from his 5 ships, he forces you to decide to move into his trap, or completely stop (giving up your defense tokens)...

6) lol ok, maybe i should have read 6 first, so i would know you have no clue what you are talking about.... 1st, he has 4 raiders and a demolisher with engine tech, thats about as fast and mobile as you can get. and 2nd, name a maneuver 4 ship that has high damage from it's rear arc.

so from your 6 points, i gather that you think the counter to clon's list is with 16 bombers and as many mc30s as you can afford, kiting with their 2 rear arc dice...

Clon's list is great because 1, his list is very point effective, pound for pound. 2, he has a very specific strategy that works for every kind of list imaginable, 3) his ships are well designed (and rounded) for that specific strategy. and 4) it is very effective at winning a lot of swiss points....

Lol

I miss Clon so much...

Why doesn't he fix Africa so he can come back already?

I need help suppressing the rebel scum.

Lol

Well.. given that both wave4 and wave5 introduced cards that were designed to be a hard counter to Clontrooper5 build.. maybe the answer is yes

Lol

Well.. given that both wave4 and wave5 introduced cards that were designed to be a hard counter to Clontrooper5 build.. maybe the answer is yes

I was looking at "most replies" sort option. This used to bother people so much.

Targetting scramblers, RBD's, Konstantine, slicer tools, flotilla scatter tokens, General Tagge...

It's hard for me not to attribute at least some of these directly to ye olde Clonisher!

Truly, a meta-defining list.

May the MSU builds rest in pieces.