I didn't see any mention of Mc30's against this. Mon Mothma and foresight is incredible, even if you are 2nd after he shoots you up you can really return in kind. Gladiators fold up pretty fast two when you bring them under fire

I didn't see any mention of Mc30's against this. Mon Mothma and foresight is incredible, even if you are 2nd after he shoots you up you can really return in kind. Gladiators fold up pretty fast two when you bring them under fire

if i can kill and ISD in 3 shots I sure as Vaders Fist can kill an MC30 in 3 shots

The math is in another thread, but the build has a 60% chance of doing enough damage to kill an ISD with 1 brace in one combo.

I didn't see any mention of Mc30's against this. Mon Mothma and foresight is incredible, even if you are 2nd after he shoots you up you can really return in kind. Gladiators fold up pretty fast two when you bring them under fire

if i can kill and ISD in 3 shots I sure as Vaders Fist can kill an MC30 in 3 shots

8-10 points per shot over 3 shots. Sure, you can force a reroll on a couple of dice on each shot, but that's not enough to keep that MC30 around.

Lando is pretty interesting since you'll have a lot of dice with a crit/hit face that you can force a reroll on for the standard 1 damage that a black die does. That might not help the MC30, but it might help the MC80. I'm still willing to bet that the Raiders can finish off that MC80, which means it still trades itself for something of far more value. The best bet for a fleet that loses initiative is to have a ship cheap enough that it can maneuver and block the approach

MC80s with Advanced Projectors are generally fairly resilient to the Demolisher itself. Add Lando and it's probably going to be ticking fairly healthily.

Lando and APs and and ECMs should be enough to make a MC80 stand up tolerably.

If, as the math indicated, you're looking at an average of 24 damage via the triple, an MC80 may not be durable enough. Its total shields are only 15 (4x3+3 = 15; 15+8 = 23).

The issue with the "Clonisher Test" is that it reduces the game to a dice/numbers game. Can you let the Demo swing hard and survive? Well, maybe you get to contest. Can you not? Well, better pack away those capital ships.

I didn't see any mention of Mc30's against this. Mon Mothma and foresight is incredible, even if you are 2nd after he shoots you up you can really return in kind. Gladiators fold up pretty fast two when you bring them under fire

if i can kill and ISD in 3 shots I sure as Vaders Fist can kill an MC30 in 3 shots

Maybe if your opponent serves up the MC30 on a platter to you? The first shot should not be at close if your opponent is good at judging where to navigate to, so those two reds will be evaded with Mon Mothma. Then you have 6 dice out the front and 4 out the side which is a barrel of suck, but also with a decent chance that anything screeded will be downgraded. You need 12 damage to completely murder an unharmed Foresight, which yeah, you have a shot at, but it certainly isn't "sure as Vader's fist." Maybe sure as Luke's fist?

Maybe if your opponent serves up the MC30 on a platter to you? The first shot should not be at close if your opponent is good at judging where to navigate to, so those two reds will be evaded with Mon Mothma. Then you have 6 dice out the front and 4 out the side which is a barrel of suck, but also with a decent chance that anything screeded will be downgraded. You need 12 damage to completely murder an unharmed Foresight, which yeah, you have a shot at, but it certainly isn't "sure as Vader's fist." Maybe sure as Luke's fist?

The range on the Demolisher is longer than you might think. Speed 4 is a little shy of long range; add in close range for the post-movement shot and the additional yaw for the final manoeuvre and you're looking at about 16", which is a long way on a 3' x 6', especially considering the usual first turn movements.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but maybe you haven't fully considered the distance the last/first Demolisher can cover? It is extremely difficult to avoid, and 'not serving up on a platter' is definitely not the situation.

Maybe if your opponent serves up the MC30 on a platter to you? The first shot should not be at close if your opponent is good at judging where to navigate to, so those two reds will be evaded with Mon Mothma. Then you have 6 dice out the front and 4 out the side which is a barrel of suck, but also with a decent chance that anything screeded will be downgraded. You need 12 damage to completely murder an unharmed Foresight, which yeah, you have a shot at, but it certainly isn't "sure as Vader's fist." Maybe sure as Luke's fist?

The range on the Demolisher is longer than you might think. Speed 4 is a little shy of long range; add in close range for the post-movement shot and the additional yaw for the final manoeuvre and you're looking at about 16", which is a long way on a 3' x 6', especially considering the usual first turn movements.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but maybe you haven't fully considered the distance the last/first Demolisher can cover? It is extremely difficult to avoid, and 'not serving up on a platter' is definitely not the situation.

Don't forget that use of the Navigate command (which is mandatory for proper operation of the Clonisher), the flexibility is even higher than we're suggesting. Being at speed 2 means going anywhere from Speed 1 to Speed 4+(better yaw due to Engine Tech's wording).

I'm saying if you know it's coming, Yo

Maybe if your opponent serves up the MC30 on a platter to you? The first shot should not be at close if your opponent is good at judging where to navigate to, so those two reds will be evaded with Mon Mothma. Then you have 6 dice out the front and 4 out the side which is a barrel of suck, but also with a decent chance that anything screeded will be downgraded. You need 12 damage to completely murder an unharmed Foresight, which yeah, you have a shot at, but it certainly isn't "sure as Vader's fist." Maybe sure as Luke's fist?

The range on the Demolisher is longer than you might think. Speed 4 is a little shy of long range; add in close range for the post-movement shot and the additional yaw for the final manoeuvre and you're looking at about 16", which is a long way on a 3' x 6', especially considering the usual first turn movements.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but maybe you haven't fully considered the distance the last/first Demolisher can cover? It is extremely difficult to avoid, and 'not serving up on a platter' is definitely not the situation.

And I certainly wasn't trying to be rude by saying "serving it up on a platter," but if you deploy the MC30 at the back, not at distance 3, and go speed 2, speed 4 will not reach close range. With engine techs, you would also need to point it sideways more and maybe do the ziggy zags to make sure you don't get there, but it is very possible to protect yourself from the first hit. The biggest boon I think a lot of people overlook about the small base is the flexibility to start further back, and also not have as big a footprint for other ships to get black range on you.

I'm saying if you know it's coming, Yo

And I certainly wasn't trying to be rude by saying "serving it up on a platter," but if you deploy the MC30 at the back, not at distance 3, and go speed 2, speed 4 will not reach close range. With engine techs, you would also need to point it sideways more and maybe do the ziggy zags to make sure you don't get there, but it is very possible to protect yourself from the first hit. The biggest boon I think a lot of people overlook about the small base is the flexibility to start further back, and also not have as big a footprint for other ships to get black range on you.

Well, that MC30 isn't really going to be participating either, in which case the Demolisher would seek other prey. Knowing it's coming doesn't make it easier - I've played quite a lot of games with the same list and the modified version I'm running in the Vassal Team Tournament and it's not as simple as knowing it's coming and just deploying further back. If the Demolishers target is sitting far back out of range, then it's not threatening anything - only a bomber wing build can really afford to do that.

Additionally, the Demolisher can wait as much as the MC30 can. Demolisher out ranges any and all ships. If need be, the Demolisher can delay its attack run on the 30, or just hit something else - and if there's nothing else in range...then it waits.

I just don't understand your point, I guess.

I'm saying if you know it's coming, Yo

And I certainly wasn't trying to be rude by saying "serving it up on a platter," but if you deploy the MC30 at the back, not at distance 3, and go speed 2, speed 4 will not reach close range. With engine techs, you would also need to point it sideways more and maybe do the ziggy zags to make sure you don't get there, but it is very possible to protect yourself from the first hit. The biggest boon I think a lot of people overlook about the small base is the flexibility to start further back, and also not have as big a footprint for other ships to get black range on you.

Well, that MC30 isn't really going to be participating either, in which case the Demolisher would seek other prey. Knowing it's coming doesn't make it easier - I've played quite a lot of games with the same list and the modified version I'm running in the Vassal Team Tournament and it's not as simple as knowing it's coming and just deploying further back. If the Demolishers target is sitting far back out of range, then it's not threatening anything - only a bomber wing build can really afford to do that.

Additionally, the Demolisher can wait as much as the MC30 can. Demolisher out ranges any and all ships. If need be, the Demolisher can delay its attack run on the 30, or just hit something else - and if there's nothing else in range...then it waits.

I just don't understand your point, I guess.

My only point is you CAN survive the "triple tap" with Foresight, if you know there is a Demolisher with more activations than you and you have a plan for it. So sure, he can go after other stuff, but so can Foresight.

My only point is you CAN survive the "triple tap" with Foresight, if you know there is a Demolisher with more activations than you and you have a plan for it. So sure, he can go after other stuff, but so can Foresight.

My only point is you CAN survive the "triple tap" with Foresight, if you know there is a Demolisher with more activations than you and you have a plan for it. So sure, he can go after other stuff, but so can Foresight.

Admonition is actually more likely to weather the storm. Even then Admonition still dies about 70% of the time.

And I have to say, your statements are extremely naive: this is not talking hypothetically, but actual gameplay experience has shown that the Demolisher with activation advantage (ie, can activate last) and initiative (ie, can activate first next turn) will reliably destroy any small or medium and many large ships. A Mon Mothma-led Foresight isn't an exception, even if it is quite tough, but your assertions that the Foresight can remain out of range and remain useful in the battle is simply not possible: if the Foresight is in a position to jump at speed 4 to threaten other targets, then it is in a position to get Demolisher-ed; if it's not threatened by the Demolisher, then it is not in a position to threaten anything.

Again, this is because of the activation advantage allowing the Demolisher to watch the Foresight and where it's going as well as activating first next turn when it pounces to give it unparalleled damage output.

My only point is you CAN survive the "triple tap" with Foresight, if you know there is a Demolisher with more activations than you and you have a plan for it. So sure, he can go after other stuff, but so can Foresight.

Admonition is actually more likely to weather the storm. Even then Admonition still dies about 70% of the time.

And I have to say, your statements are extremely naive: this is not talking hypothetically, but actual gameplay experience has shown that the Demolisher with activation advantage (ie, can activate last) and initiative (ie, can activate first next turn) will reliably destroy any small or medium and many large ships. A Mon Mothma-led Foresight isn't an exception, even if it is quite tough, but your assertions that the Foresight can remain out of range and remain useful in the battle is simply not possible: if the Foresight is in a position to jump at speed 4 to threaten other targets, then it is in a position to get Demolisher-ed; if it's not threatened by the Demolisher, then it is not in a position to threaten anything.

Again, this is because of the activation advantage allowing the Demolisher to watch the Foresight and where it's going as well as activating first next turn when it pounces to give it unparalleled damage output.

No, I get it, I promise, I understand what the activation advantage is, understand you can put the glad exactly where you want within 1-4 depending on token/Wulf usage. And yeah, it is unlikely a skilled player would maneuver poorly enough to where the scenario I previously mentioned would occur ,but could be possible if you're pretty well angled, but trust me I understand. I certainly wasn't trying to sound insulting to all of the research and playtesting you Vassal dudes have put in, so I'm sorry if I came off that way, Admonition is my favorite title on those, too, and I agree, more likely to survive, but the OP was talking about Foresight, so I was just trying to do some theorizing.

No, I get it, I promise, I understand what the activation advantage is, understand you can put the glad exactly where you want within 1-4 depending on token/Wulf usage. And yeah, it is unlikely a skilled player would maneuver poorly enough to where the scenario I previously mentioned would occur ,but could be possible if you're pretty well angled, but trust me I understand. I certainly wasn't trying to sound insulting to all of the research and playtesting you Vassal dudes have put in, so I'm sorry if I came off that way, Admonition is my favorite title on those, too, and I agree, more likely to survive, but the OP was talking about Foresight, so I was just trying to do some theorizing.

Ok

It is possible for an MC30 to survive, though it is likely only limping away

No, I get it, I promise, I understand what the activation advantage is, understand you can put the glad exactly where you want within 1-4 depending on token/Wulf usage. And yeah, it is unlikely a skilled player would maneuver poorly enough to where the scenario I previously mentioned would occur ,but could be possible if you're pretty well angled, but trust me I understand. I certainly wasn't trying to sound insulting to all of the research and playtesting you Vassal dudes have put in, so I'm sorry if I came off that way, Admonition is my favorite title on those, too, and I agree, more likely to survive, but the OP was talking about Foresight, so I was just trying to do some theorizing.

Ok

It is possible for an MC30 to survive, though it is likely only limping away

That I can definitely agree with. Limping and nearly dead is the MC30 way!

The real way to beat Clontrooper is this.

"Clon I bet you cant win the Team Vassal tourney without that Demolisher."

There, that was easy.

Is it too soon to start a new thread with just this quote?

My only point is you CAN survive the "triple tap" with Foresight, if you know there is a Demolisher with more activations than you and you have a plan for it. So sure, he can go after other stuff, but so can Foresight.

Admonition is actually more likely to weather the storm. Even then Admonition still dies about 70% of the time.

And I have to say, your statements are extremely naive: this is not talking hypothetically, but actual gameplay experience has shown that the Demolisher with activation advantage (ie, can activate last) and initiative (ie, can activate first next turn) will reliably destroy any small or medium and many large ships. A Mon Mothma-led Foresight isn't an exception, even if it is quite tough, but your assertions that the Foresight can remain out of range and remain useful in the battle is simply not possible: if the Foresight is in a position to jump at speed 4 to threaten other targets, then it is in a position to get Demolisher-ed; if it's not threatened by the Demolisher, then it is not in a position to threaten anything.

Again, this is because of the activation advantage allowing the Demolisher to watch the Foresight and where it's going as well as activating first next turn when it pounces to give it unparalleled damage output.

You're definitely right: the night after our game, after telling you about the wonders of admonition with advanced projectors, I played a friend of mine who was running a 386 points 4 ships imperial build with fully kitted out demolisher using my tournament list. My admonition was his first target, and it died, tho at his third tap.

So, from my experience, beating your list comes down to 3 options: 1) i run Rieekan and I'm able to shoot the demolisher down as a zombie 2) I have initiative, like in our tournament game 3) very difficult and situational to pull up, but I manage to bait your demolisher in such a position that it gets blown away after it took down one of my ships.

With activation advantage on your favor, option 3 is even harder to pull out, so it all basically comes down to who has initiative and/or Rieekan. In fact I was quite surprised when the team tournament lists came out, as I expected to see a lot of really high bids but in the end it all seemed pretty regular, except maybe for some renewed love for Rieekan.

Its an interesting list for sure. I have yet to play my raiders cuz ISDs exist and they are doing really well for me.

I am sure I will face this soon enough at the local store champ as there are a few people who netdeck. I am interested to see how this goes. I may get the last 2 Raiders I need and run it myself.

It is possible for an MC30 to survive, though it is likely only limping away

That I can definitely agree with. Limping and nearly dead is the MC30 way!

Aaaaaaaaaaand then it gets rammed / engine tech rammed.

I appreciate your posts and theories Calidas, and wish I could agree with them. It might be something you need to experience for yourself, but in the meantime try check out some of the replays from recent games.

Unfortunately the Demolisher+activations+bid fleet Clontroper5 cooked up has a ship with a damage output high enough and consistent enough to be a genuine game-changer.

The only thing I have seen that can withstand the Clonisher Demo build (Demo+Glad I+expanded launchers+Intel+ordinance experts+engine-techs) is a Motti ISD. I know an advanced projector MC80 can but have yet to actually play one of those.

I took my own 5 ship activation build with 2 glads and 3 raiders that I was inspired by Clon with to my local store championship this past weekend and won with 29 points and 1001 MOV. I faced 2 lists with 2 ISD2's and Motti. Clonishers initial target was Motti's ISD and it took the normal triple tap and then 1 additional round of firing the next turn with the Demo and/or one of my raiders in the front.

As someone else said the 2X engine tech ram is also great to finish one off.

I also took a modified version of clontroper5's list to a store championship this weekend - 28 points, 903 MOV.

I didn't send Demolisher against any Motti ISDs, but I've done the math and the triple alpha strike can remove a non-Motti ISD reliably. An a side note, the Raiders got more kills (>50% damage deal) than the Demolisher.

Raider Kills:

3 ISDs

1 VSD

1 Gladiator

1 Raider

Demolisher Kills:

1 Gladiator (Demolisher)

2 Raiders

The only thing I have seen that can withstand the Clonisher Demo build (Demo+Glad I+expanded launchers+Intel+ordinance experts+engine-techs) is a Motti ISD. I know an advanced projector MC80 can but have yet to actually play one of those.

I took my own 5 ship activation build with 2 glads and 3 raiders that I was inspired by Clon with to my local store championship this past weekend and won with 29 points and 1001 MOV. I faced 2 lists with 2 ISD2's and Motti. Clonishers initial target was Motti's ISD and it took the normal triple tap and then 1 additional round of firing the next turn with the Demo and/or one of my raiders in the front.

As someone else said the 2X engine tech ram is also great to finish one off.

i love my double ISD list. It does really well overall but this list definitely worries me. I picked up extra intel officers and proton torpedoes off ebay, now to pick up the raiders next week so i can play it and practice against it.

I think my 2 ISD list will do ok vs it, but its simply because the list does ok vs a lot of things it shouldnt be ok against. this will come down to squadrons and the ISDs one shotting ships in one activation before getting trounced.

The only thing I have seen that can withstand the Clonisher Demo build (Demo+Glad I+expanded launchers+Intel+ordinance experts+engine-techs) is a Motti ISD. I know an advanced projector MC80 can but have yet to actually play one of those.

I took my own 5 ship activation build with 2 glads and 3 raiders that I was inspired by Clon with to my local store championship this past weekend and won with 29 points and 1001 MOV. I faced 2 lists with 2 ISD2's and Motti. Clonishers initial target was Motti's ISD and it took the normal triple tap and then 1 additional round of firing the next turn with the Demo and/or one of my raiders in the front.

As someone else said the 2X engine tech ram is also great to finish one off.

i love my double ISD list. It does really well overall but this list definitely worries me. I picked up extra intel officers and proton torpedoes off ebay, now to pick up the raiders next week so i can play it and practice against it.

I think my 2 ISD list will do ok vs it, but its simply because the list does ok vs a lot of things it shouldnt be ok against. this will come down to squadrons and the ISDs one shotting ships in one activation before getting trounced.

2 ISD's are ok and can be good vs a lot of lists however I don't think there is really anything you can do against someone who has practiced the 5 activations list you won't get many medium range shots out of your front arc. I use 2 GSD's that flank both of your ISD's. You will never get a front arc shot on Demo with the last/first. I keep the 3 raiders in front of you but make sure I stay out of medium range for your first front attack then you move forward into medium/close for my raiders to hit you. My 3rd game I lost 1 raider due to the Imperial player being smart and going up to speed 3 to go right in front of one of my raiders before my flanking Glad could do enough damage to kill it. I had to activate Demo first on the Motti ISD2 and double tap so he was able to activate his other ISD and vaporize my raider infront of him. MY flanking Demo then finished off the ISD the next turn as did another raider on the Motti ISD. Demo went down to 4 firesprays due to me having to reduce speed to 0 to not fly just off the map. If it wasn't for that I would have only lost 1 raider in 3 games.

I think your best bet as a 2 ISD list verse this list are set your ISD's to speed 3 and charge forward. You have to break the raider line before the 2 GSD's can blow you up but with engine techs on both GSD's and first player advantage you won't be able to run away so I am not sure if that would even work. It's a tough list to beat if you are second player against it.