The high activation, high initiative bid, demolisher with expanded launchers, ordinance team, and engine techs build headed by Screed seemed pretty untouchable this last Vassal tournament.

Any ideas on how to challenge such a build, or have we found the pinnacle of Armada lists?

How would Clontroper5 beat it?

I want someone to try:

MC80 Command - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, ECM and Defiance.

TRC90A Dodonna Jainas Light,

CR90A Raymus Taintive IV

Dodonna Pride B

SW7 90B

Jan X X

394 points.

Lets see how Demo likes taking those Defiance blacks, followed up by auto damage corvettes.

I think Rieekan may be its best foil.

A mate of mine has taken to putting Wulff on his Demolisher.

Turn 1 - Nav order taken as a token.

After that he's free to spam concentrate fire orders (or engineering) as he always has a token to trigger Engine Techs.

The build is:

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 pts)
Demolisher (10 pts)
Wulff Yularen (7 pts)
Ordnance Experts (4 pts)
Engine Techs (8 pts)
Assault Concussion Missiles (7 pts)

It can deliver a 5 black dice broadside - with rerolls.

The key to his build was not only that the demolisher hit hard, but it could take 3 shots before anything could return fire. That last/first activation, double arc, could put just about anything down. Usually after just 2, leaving the 3rd lethal volley for other nearby threats if needed.

I think that, indeed, clontrooper5's list is invicible, and that it currently isn't and probable will never be countered ! Like Darth Vader said in Episode V : you are beaten, it is useless to resist.

Just kidding ! I think that if Clontrooper5 proved something is that he is one hell of a player to be able to pace himself with such short range ships and that the Raiders aren't half bad as many people thought If we analyse Clon's list very coldly, we can see that it has a major comfort zone but several aspects that it is possible to exploit :

1) It hasn't got a great squadron defense. Sure, he has 3 TIE Fighters to tie things up and the Raider's 2 AS dice isn't too bad, but throwing 3 to 4 squadrons on 1 Raider will crack its shields open with relative ease.

2) It is vulnerable to large attack pools with accuracies, due to mainly having small ships that rely on their single Brace which is heavily shut down.

3) It is suprisingly flimsy at medium-clos range : The Raiders' Evade tokens won't save it at close medium, which is also where attack pools will be larger. But at long range, it can take a beating.

4) It is vulnerable in the squadron phase : Clon's activation advantage banks on being able to wait until all ships have been activated to set up his next turn activation without being shot at. Rogues and squadrons that are able to respond to that by being able to attack in the squadron phase are something he will probably want to avoid.

5) It is deceptively defensive. Short range dice have a surprising defensive value, while they require more work (initiative, activation advantage, etc) to be used offensively. I'm sure clon's list loves nothing more than other short range lists !

6) It will have trouble catchin up with fast fleets. Aside from Demo, it will have trouble applying damage on elusive fleets that kite and swirl around. So, if Demo is target painted and killed, the adversary can just focus on not dying.

Not saying this to diminish any accomplisment by Clon's on his well deserved victory !

So what was the build.?

Carribean Ninja:

My take on this would be a heavy heavy bomber or firespray ball. Madaghmire setup his squads as mines and tore Demolisher up singlehandedly. This has to happen BEFORE the next round though.

I think a minimum of four FS or six to eight bombers.

A mate of mine has taken to putting Wulff on his Demolisher.

Turn 1 - Nav order taken as a token.

After that he's free to spam concentrate fire orders (or engineering) as he always has a token to trigger Engine Techs.

The build is:

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 pts)

Demolisher (10 pts)

Wulff Yularen (7 pts)

Ordnance Experts (4 pts)

Engine Techs (8 pts)

Assault Concussion Missiles (7 pts)

It can deliver a 5 black dice broadside - with rerolls.

This has no Intel officer - and no Exp launchers (which diminishes the return from ord experts).

This is the Clontrooper list in question:

+++ Mean Raiders (387pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (387pts) ++

+ Gladiator Star Destroyer (98pts) +

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (98pts) [Engine Techs (8pts), Expanded Launchers (13pts), Intel Officer (7pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Demolisher (10pts)]

+ Raider Corvette (273pts) +

Raider I-Class Corvette (68pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Intel Officer (7pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (68pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Intel Officer (7pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (80pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes (5pts), •Admiral Montferrat (5pts), •Admiral Screed (26pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (57pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes (5pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Instigator (4pts)]

+ Squadrons (16pts) +

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Hyperspace Assault]

Navigation Objective [Minefields]

I want someone to try:

MC80 Command - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, ECM and Defiance.

TRC90A Dodonna Jainas Light,

CR90A Raymus Taintive IV

Dodonna Pride B

SW7 90B

Jan X X

394 points.

Lets see how Demo likes taking those Defiance blacks, followed up by auto damage corvettes.

Congratulations - That's the most obtuse list I've ever seen written down. How is anyone other than a few hardcore forumites able to understand this?

I want someone to try:

MC80 Command - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, ECM and Defiance.

TRC90A Dodonna Jainas Light,

CR90A Raymus Taintive IV

Dodonna Pride B

SW7 90B

Jan X X

394 points.

Lets see how Demo likes taking those Defiance blacks, followed up by auto damage corvettes.

I've actually flown against a very similar/almost identical fleet to Clones before

I had a TRC Corvette A and an MC30 Admonition....both of which died very quickly mostly due to my errors.

However my MC80 was left over and he was in beast mode.......and Defiance is really good for these. CF for 2 blacks...yes please

MC80 Command - Intel Officer, Engine Techs, Xi7s, Leading Shots, ECM and Defiance with Ackbar of course.

Finished off Demolisher on turn 2 & 3. Popped a Raider a turn over 4 & 5 (single broadside of the above MC80 will take one down a turn quite easily...unless you get one in the other side too and then its 2 a turn ) then he managed to scoot the other 2 away on turn 6 earning me a 7-3

Now I'm not saying that Clone isn't good in flying his fleet, what I'm saying is that the list itself is beatable.....however Clone might be just super good at flying it....and that's where the hurt comes in

JJ, Biggs, and I were theorizing this in the booth last night. The best way to mess with it is to underbid. Clon relies heavily on that first/last activation. Without it, Demolisher is no where near as dangerous. Clon has admitted as much in his testing.

However, on the off chance you don't want to do a 14 point bid, our next best theory was Rieekan. That way Demolisher can't strike with total impunity. It will still be a brutal and bloody affair, but you might be able to slug it out if he can't remove a critical ship before it can do anything.

I want someone to try:

MC80 Command - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, ECM and Defiance.

TRC90A Dodonna Jainas Light , - CR90 A, Dodonna, Turbo laser Reroute Circuits, Jainas Light

CR90A Raymus Taintive IV - CR90A, Raymus Antilles, Taintive IV

Dodonna Pride B - CR90B, Dodonnas Pride

SW7 90B - CR90B, SW7 ion cannons

Jan X X - Jan Orrs with two X Wings.

394 points.

Lets see how Demo likes taking those Defiance blacks, followed up by auto damage corvettes.

Congratulations - That's the most obtuse list I've ever seen written down. How is anyone other than a few hardcore forumites able to understand this?

Better?

Nice to hear MoffZen. I have various variations on the Defiance Raymus Taintive combo for practice.

I want someone to try:

MC80 Command - Intell Officer, Engine Techs, ECM and Defiance.

TRC90A Dodonna Jainas Light , - CR90 A, Dodonna, Turbo laser Reroute Circuits, Jainas Light

CR90A Raymus Taintive IV - CR90A, Raymus Antilles, Taintive IV

Dodonna Pride B - CR90B, Dodonnas Pride

SW7 90B - CR90B, SW7 ion cannons

Jan X X - Jan Orrs with two X Wings.

394 points.

Lets see how Demo likes taking those Defiance blacks, followed up by auto damage corvettes.

Congratulations - That's the most obtuse list I've ever seen written down. How is anyone other than a few hardcore forumites able to understand this?

Better?

Nice to hear MoffZen. I have various variations on the Defiance Raymus Taintive combo for practice.

Beautiful...

And I did honestly mean congratulations... it was almost poetic the way you wrote out the list...

I beat it when he was play testing for the tournament. My list was exactly what everybody here is suggesting: 8* CR90B with SW-7, with Rieekan and Jaina's Light. Had a 184 point bid, and out-deployed him.

The list crumbles without first.

I beat it when he was play testing for the tournament. My list was exactly what everybody here is suggesting: 8* CR90B with SW-7, with Rieekan and Jaina's Light. Had a 184 point bid, and out-deployed him.

The list crumbles without first.

I'm mainly looking for ways that don't use absurd initiative bids. After all, I'm not going to walk into a tourney knowing exactly how high I'm going to need to bid, and I'm not willing to go to 386 as a standard. I could walk into a tournament with the next highest bid being 395. That's 8 completely wasted points.

So, if you go first, you win. That can break in one of two ways:

1. You don't go first. The problem is that if you come in with a list that is 387 points, and some guy is at 386, guess who goes first? Not you.
2. There are some lists that want to go second. Imagine a heavy bomber build with Rieekan against this list, as one example.

This means there are two counters to the Clon list: go first, or have a list that actually benefits from going second. The main problem with the lists I see go against it is that they are neither of these things. Especially not the second one (I have a strong expectation that the rebel meta is going to change dramatically after the next few months as people learn they are not optimizing their long range firepower from the player 2 spot yet).

I beat it when he was play testing for the tournament. My list was exactly what everybody here is suggesting: 8* CR90B with SW-7, with Rieekan and Jaina's Light. Had a 184 point bid, and out-deployed him.

The list crumbles without first.

I'm mainly looking for ways that don't use absurd initiative bids. After all, I'm not going to walk into a tourney knowing exactly how high I'm going to need to bid, and I'm not willing to go to 386 as a standard. I could walk into a tournament with the next highest bid being 395. That's 8 completely wasted points.

You seem to be under the perception that I built my list to counter his, which is not the case. We were just playing a pickup game on vassal, to which he brought what would later turn out to be his tourney list.

It may be that the existence of Clon's list in a meta will drive bids way down. How low do they have to get before 400-pointers start handily crushing the low bids? We'll see.

That's fine. I am doing exactly that for this weekend's SC. Regardless, Rieekan *should* enable you to do the same thing without a bid for first player if you play it right AND out-activate him.

You seem to be under the perception that I built my list to counter his, which is not the case. We were just playing a pickup game on vassal, to which he brought what would later turn out to be his tourney list.

It may be that the existence of Clon's list in a meta will drive bids way down. How low do they have to get before 400-pointers start handily crushing the low bids? We'll see.

Ah yes, I was indeed under that impression. I'll start with Rieekan and work from there. Out activating is something that only a swarm can really do. I prefer squadron heavy, so out-activating him is out of the question. I think my first crack will be an H6 centric list.

This is the list I've been trying. Similar to Clon, but trades some killing power for staying power.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 390/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)

[ flagship ] Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Admiral Montferrat ( 5 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)

4 Aggressor Assault Fighters ( 64 points)

I really think only another swarm list with a higher initiative bid would be able to take him out. A Swarm with Rieeken would work but I think a list of only 3 caps and Rieeken would still lose. Even heavy bomber gets tabled before they can wipe out Clon's demo most of the time. In the Finals Clon wasn't able to move Instigator close enough to tie up all of the bombers so Demo was forced to take all of the shots from the bombers but she still had enough to survive. Against a heaver bomber force I think he would have been more careful to make sure Instigator was in range to tie them up for one turn. With Rieeken Clon would still activate Demolisher move forward and take the big opening shot. Activate first and get off 1 or 2 more shots depending on what is needed and then move away at speed 3 behind your big Rieeken ship so you won't get off a great arc on him. The question is how do destroy Demolisher before it destroys your highest value ship. A swarm of CR90's that actually did beat him has that advantage as they can fly around out of range of Demo and just take pot shots.

I really don't think heavy bomber is the way to go. Clon beat 1 Imperial heavy Rhymer Ball, 1 Imperial Fireball, 2 Rebel BWing lists, and a balanced fighter wing in the finals.

There are hard counters (Reeikan, 386 bid) and there are soft counters (Activations, Deployment advantage, Squadron mines, Splitting deployment).

The list isn't invincible, per se. I have a local gamer that has been playing the list since pretty much the end of Clon's first three games, and he hasn't quite managed to replicate Clon's success in our local meta. But in the hands of someone who has put in a lot of analysis in the list (and I think with Vassal being just a bit more precise than table top) it is a hard nut to crack.

The problem also isnt quite just how to beat Clons list.

Its how to beat all of:

Demo Raider Spam

Corvette Spam

Triple VSD Squadrons

Ackbar Assualt Frigates

Dual ISD's

Rebel Bombers

(And any other meta types people can think of)

With the balanced list I have had some success with I actually highly prefer to go second. I also have found that the better I get at delaying contact until I want it, the more consistently successful a balanced list is. It's all in the objectives and deployment, really. After that a little bit of skill/experience at manouvering and throwing commands at the right time and bobs your uncle.

Clons list, I imagine, relies on going first and being aggressive, but I think it would be highly vulnerable to well driven fireballs. All those raider Is with close range AS dice. In my experience even a moderate fireball can pop a raider a turn. Pop 2 raiders and make sure he's chasing you the whole game to keep your losses down and you have a solid shot at a 6-4 or 7-3 and for the love of bananas stay away from the Demo! (yes I know engine techs gives it effectively speed 4, but read above RE deployment)