So a thought occurred to me today in a game. If Omega Leader has a TL on another ship (such as drea) who has at TL back on him and has R4-B11 equipped, can you trigger R4-B11 and spend your TL when OL is defending? The reason I ask is because Omega Leader says that the person he has TLed can not modify any dice, but technically while R4-B11 is causing the modification to happen, it's the opponent (OL) himself that's actually rerolling the dice, not the ship with r4b11. Similar to Palpatine still working if he's on another ship because he's the one modifying the die, not the TLed ship.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

R4B11 should work because it says the target rerolls his own dice, and per the ruling on Palpatine, it would therefore not be blocked by OL's ability - whether or not that is RAI, it's certainly RAW.

Most offensive mods to defence dice (e.g. Juke) and defensive mods to attack dice (e.g. Sensor Jammer) are blocked by OL's pilot ability, because it's not OL doing the modifying, it's the attacking/defending ship.

R4B11 should work because it says the target rerolls his own dice, and per the ruling on Palpatine, it would therefore not be blocked by OL's ability - whether or not that is RAI, it's certainly RAW.

Most offensive mods to defence dice (e.g. Juke) and defensive mods to attack dice (e.g. Sensor Jammer) are blocked by OL's pilot ability, because it's not OL doing the modifying, it's the attacking/defending ship.

Quite correct, and Omega Leader blocks ALL dice from being modified, which effectively is any modification ability or upgrade that the opponent ship may have.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Yep, Elusiveness wouldn't by RAW be blocked by OL's ability for the same reason as R4B11 and Palpatine.

I suspect that RAI they would be, blocked, but presumably before OL they weren't as careful about how they phrased ailities where the defender affects the attacker's dice or the attacker affects the defender's. I'd not be surprised to see these clarified.

But I hope if they do, that they don't do the same for Palpatine, it really feels like his ability to screw with OL should be retained for thematic reasons.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Elusiveness

R4-B11

R7?

Would C-3P0? It happens before the modification step after all. At what point does OL's ability step in and when does it stop functioning (will the dice cancelled on a TLT be cancelled still?)

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Elusiveness

R4-B11

R7?

Would C-3P0? It happens before the modification step after all. At what point does OL's ability step in and when does it stop functioning (will the dice cancelled on a TLT be cancelled still?)

C-3P0 definitely doesn't work; it adds an evade result, adding results is a modification, modifications are blocked.

Palpatine can get around OL's ability because the source of the modification is Palpatine's ship, rather than the ship that OL has locked. With Elusiveness and R4-B11, the source of the modification is still the ship that OL has locked. Yes, both of them say that the opponent rerolls the dice, but that doesn't change who is triggering the modification, paying for the modification, and selecting which dice to modify.

Look at it another way - if Elusiveness and R4-B11 are treated as OL modifying his own dice, then when are they triggered? Should R4-B11 be triggered during the "Defender modifies defense dice" step? If OL has initiative, does he have to choose to spend tokens before R4-B11's reroll?

I think it's pretty clear that R4-B11 should trigger during the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step (and Elusiveness during the "Defender modifies attack dice" step), which means that that OL's opponent is doing the modifying, which in turn means that OL's ability will block it.

I think it's pretty clear that R4-B11 should trigger during the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step (and Elusiveness during the "Defender modifies attack dice" step), which means that that OL's opponent is doing the modifying, which in turn means that OL's ability will block it.

This. As far as I know, all the abilities that you can use while attacking that result in rerolling defense dice are phrased in the "defender must reroll" way, rather than "(you) reroll the defender's dice". Which I still think is in deference to the well-known gamer neuroses about other people touching your dice.

We could probably use a clarification in the FAQ saying "abilities that force the other player to reroll some number of their own dice are still dice modifications coming from you, and happen in the appropriate places in the attack sequence."

Palpatine can get around OL's ability because the source of the modification is Palpatine's ship, rather than the ship that OL has locked. With Elusiveness and R4-B11, the source of the modification is still the ship that OL has locked. Yes, both of them say that the opponent rerolls the dice, but that doesn't change who is triggering the modification, paying for the modification, and selecting which dice to modify.

Look at it another way - if Elusiveness and R4-B11 are treated as OL modifying his own dice, then when are they triggered? Should R4-B11 be triggered during the "Defender modifies defense dice" step? If OL has initiative, does he have to choose to spend tokens before R4-B11's reroll?

I think it's pretty clear that R4-B11 should trigger during the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step (and Elusiveness during the "Defender modifies attack dice" step), which means that that OL's opponent is doing the modifying, which in turn means that OL's ability will block it.

It's not the step in which it happens that's important for OL's ability though, it's who's actually modifying the dice. Palpatine happens during the "attaacker modifies defense dice" step but still works since it's not the target locked ship actually modifying the dice.

I'm fine with either way it gets ruled (emailing the rules question in to ask the designers opinion), just something I thought of that could go either way.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Elusiveness

R4-B11

R7?

Would C-3P0? It happens before the modification step after all. At what point does OL's ability step in and when does it stop functioning (will the dice cancelled on a TLT be cancelled still?)

C-3P0 definitely doesn't work; it adds an evade result, adding results is a modification, modifications are blocked.

But he specifically triggers on the roll and before the modification step.

This is rules lawyering on the square millimeter, I know, but still.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Elusiveness

R4-B11

R7?

Would C-3P0? It happens before the modification step after all. At what point does OL's ability step in and when does it stop functioning (will the dice cancelled on a TLT be cancelled still?)

C-3P0 definitely doesn't work; it adds an evade result, adding results is a modification, modifications are blocked.

But he specifically triggers on the roll and before the modification step.

This is rules lawyering on the square millimeter, I know, but still.

So does HLC, but that's blocked. It doesn't matter when it happens, it matters that things which are defined as modifying dice (i.e. rerolling, adding results, changing results) are happening.

Palpatine can get around OL's ability because the source of the modification is Palpatine's ship, rather than the ship that OL has locked. With Elusiveness and R4-B11, the source of the modification is still the ship that OL has locked. Yes, both of them say that the opponent rerolls the dice, but that doesn't change who is triggering the modification, paying for the modification, and selecting which dice to modify.

Look at it another way - if Elusiveness and R4-B11 are treated as OL modifying his own dice, then when are they triggered? Should R4-B11 be triggered during the "Defender modifies defense dice" step? If OL has initiative, does he have to choose to spend tokens before R4-B11's reroll?

I think it's pretty clear that R4-B11 should trigger during the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step (and Elusiveness during the "Defender modifies attack dice" step), which means that that OL's opponent is doing the modifying, which in turn means that OL's ability will block it.

It's not the step in which it happens that's important for OL's ability though, it's who's actually modifying the dice. Palpatine happens during the "attaacker modifies defense dice" step but still works since it's not the target locked ship actually modifying the dice.

I'm fine with either way it gets ruled (emailing the rules question in to ask the designers opinion), just something I thought of that could go either way.

Well, Palpatine can only modify your own rolls, so no, he could never trigger in the "attacker modifies defense dice" step. But you're correct that the important issue for Omega Leader's ability is who the source of the modification is. My argument about the timing was just another way to get at that issue: if it happens in the "attacker modifies..." step, and it's equipped to the attacking ship, then the attacking ship is the source of the modification.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Elusiveness

R4-B11

R7?

Would C-3P0? It happens before the modification step after all. At what point does OL's ability step in and when does it stop functioning (will the dice cancelled on a TLT be cancelled still?)

C-3P0 definitely doesn't work; it adds an evade result, adding results is a modification, modifications are blocked.

But he specifically triggers on the roll and before the modification step.

This is rules lawyering on the square millimeter, I know, but still.

If you really want to rule lawyer:

Palpatine can get around OL's ability because the source of the modification is Palpatine's ship, rather than the ship that OL has locked. With Elusiveness and R4-B11, the source of the modification is still the ship that OL has locked. Yes, both of them say that the opponent rerolls the dice, but that doesn't change who is triggering the modification, paying for the modification, and selecting which dice to modify.

Look at it another way - if Elusiveness and R4-B11 are treated as OL modifying his own dice, then when are they triggered? Should R4-B11 be triggered during the "Defender modifies defense dice" step? If OL has initiative, does he have to choose to spend tokens before R4-B11's reroll?

I think it's pretty clear that R4-B11 should trigger during the "Attacker modifies defense dice" step (and Elusiveness during the "Defender modifies attack dice" step), which means that that OL's opponent is doing the modifying, which in turn means that OL's ability will block it.

It's not the step in which it happens that's important for OL's ability though, it's who's actually modifying the dice. Palpatine happens during the "attaacker modifies defense dice" step but still works since it's not the target locked ship actually modifying the dice.

I'm fine with either way it gets ruled (emailing the rules question in to ask the designers opinion), just something I thought of that could go either way.

Well, Palpatine can only modify your own rolls, so no, he could never trigger in the "attacker modifies defense dice" step. But you're correct that the important issue for Omega Leader's ability is who the source of the modification is. My argument about the timing was just another way to get at that issue: if it happens in the "attacker modifies..." step, and it's equipped to the attacking ship, then the attacking ship is the source of the modification.

The timing is irrelevant to the quesiton. I said the wrong thing for palpatine, he happens during the defender modifies defense dice, not attacker modifies defense dice (or during attacker modifies attack dice). Either way it happens during YOUR modify step, but still works as long as he's not the ship TLed because HE's the one modifying the dice, not the TLed ship. Similarly, HLC doesn't modify it's crits even though it's outside the modify step because it IS the ship TLed that is doing the modification. The argument I'm looking at doesn't care about timing, just whether the fact that while the TLed ship might be the source of the modification, OL (or your opponent) is the one actually DOING the modifying.

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Dark curse, on other hand, will block the Troll-droid B4-11 because it requires to spend TL

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

and now read the OL ability again.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

Maybe you should read the Sensor Jammer again. If OL has a ship locked and attacks it, that ship cannot use Sensor Jammer to change one of OL's results, because it cannot modify any dice, and that includes OLs.

Maybe you should each read each other's posts again. .

While you were specifically talking about Sensor Jammer, Warpman was in turn talking about Elusiveness and R4-B11.

Maybe you should each read each other's posts again. .

While you were specifically talking about Sensor Jammer, Warpman was in turn talking about Elusiveness and R4-B11.

While we're all here suggesting that people read things again...

OL doesn't prohibit the enemy to mess up OL's dice

so elusiveness, sensor jammer, Trolldroid and others work as usually.

Warpman named off three upgrades ( Elusiveness, Sensor Jammer, and R4-B11 ) and an inaccurate statement on how Omega Leader's ability works. Omega Leader's ability can "prohibit the the enemy to mess up OL's dice". What Omega Leader's ability doesn't do is stop the enemy from making Omega Leader mess up his own dice.

Sensor Jammer is a dice modification, and as such will not work against Omega Leader if he has you locked.

Parravon calls out the one upgrade listed by Warpman that doesn't work like the other two and gives an accurate explanation of why it would be affected by Omega Leader's ability.

and now read the OL ability again.

Warpman gives a smartass reply to Parravon that implies that Parravon is wrong about Sensor Jammer.

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Elusiveness and 4-11 force OL to modify them.

the "locked" ship does no modification to it's dice.

He then quotes Parravon out of context and then gives an accurate explanation of why Elusiveness and R4-B11 work against Omega Leader even though this has nothing to do with Parravon's reply. He does leave out the Sensor Jammer at this point which kind of validates the point that Parravon was making.

Maybe you should read the Sensor Jammer again. If OL has a ship locked and attacks it, that ship cannot use Sensor Jammer to change one of OL's results, because it cannot modify any dice, and that includes OLs.

Parravon replies to Warpman's criticism of his statement regarding Sensor Jammer.