Gives an all new meaning to Republic Commando Squad. . . .

With that, it makes me wonder if the body glove they wear are tops and chaps only or what?

Even Clones gotta give the misters some breathing room.

Umm but with that groin armor it's gotta chafe...

To a dark place this line of conversation will take us. Great care we must take.

I don't normally share my house-rules without context, especially ones I've never tested. But I've seen too many posts commenting on how lightsabers are too powerful for an early or low-level game. There was a brand new topic in the Edge of the Empire board bemoaning a 1-hit-kill just this morning.

As written, even in Force and Destiny, lightsabers are not intended to be starting equipment, and that just doesn't sit well with some people who want a reasonably well formed jedi character from starting rules. I don't think that's unreasonable; you can start as a capable smuggler, scarred bounty hunter, or wiley diplomat after all. And I don't think that training sabers or Ancient Swords scratch the right itch for most players.

I also want to point out that in the films, rarely do lightsabers accomplish any feats of destruction that a blaster could not. The only instance that jumps out in my memory is the point when Qui Gon tried to cut through the bulk-head door.

My rule in brief, and it's purpose:

Remove Breach 1. The unbalancing mechanical power of having a lightsaber in this game comes largely from the effect that they ignore any reasonable amount of soak. By removing this, a new GM can return to the same strategies for developing combat encounters as characters using blasters or other weapons. (It also becomes easier to balance encounters for a mixed party)

My rule in more detail:

Using this rule, I remove Breach 1 as a trait on all lightsaber crystal Mods. I'd add 1 hard point to all hilts, and add an expensive new Mod called the Amplified Emitter, which for 1 hardpoint enables Breach 1 on all crystals that had it originally. Prices for crystals and the Emitter should be adjusted as per the GM's discretion. I'd add a new character creation option; start with 50 morality and a basic personal lightsaber (one WITHOUT an Emitter.)

From my perspective, the biggest advantage to this is it's pretty simple. The second is that using this rule, a GM can insert a 'proper' lightsaber into her game at the right point in the narrative, without worrying that her jedi player will suddenly outshine the scrappy scoundrel's gunplay or charming spy's expertise.

Frankly, I don't think it's really necessary.

FFG has suggested that PCs in FaD should only have lightsabers by the time they reach what would be Knight Level, which is 150 XP.

And while full-fledged lightsabers are potent weapons, there are weapons that are far more dangerous and won't draw nearly the attention a lightsaber would. Prime example is anything with the Autofire weapon quality, but you've also got vibroswords and vibro-axs, both of which can easily be taken by a starting PC.

It's also going to be overall less hassle for a PC to pick up attachments and modifications for blasters and vibro-weapons than it is to procure a lightsaber crystal; for the most part, it's up to the GM as to when a group would be able to obtain 'saber crystals, and it's a far simpler matter to mod up a vibro-ax or vibro-sword to be just as nasty as a lightsaber, especially if the PCs have access to the attachments presented in the EotE/AoR core rulebooks, such as mono-molecular edge which itself drops a vibro-weapon's crit rating down to 1 for a cost of 1000 credits, and can be modified to add two more ranks of Pierce; combo that with a serrated edge (+1 Vicious) to a vibro-ax and you've got a weapon that's Crit 1, Vicious 4, and potentially Pierce 4.

Slap an augmented spin barrel (which can be modded to provide final bonuses of +3 damage, Accurate 1, Pierce 1) on a heavy blaster rifle, and you've got an autofire weapon that will mow down just about anything within short range. Or as a PC in an AoR game I'm in has done, slap that same attachment onto the DH-X heavy blaster rifle from Dangerous Covenants, and you've got a monster of a weapon that makes a tricked-out lightsaber almost look wimpy by comparison in terms of raw damage output.

As others have noted, we repeatedly see lightsabers chopping through things like a hot knife through butter, to the point that various explanations have been cooked up to explain why a 'saber didn't carve right through something (such as Luke's glancing blow on Vader's shoulder on their ESB duel not doing more damage).

To be frank, it sounds more like the intent is to penalize players for wanting a lightsaber in the part of the product line where obtaining and using a lightsaber is part of the game.

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons.

That's fine. In fact, it's sort of the point. Any given house rule isn't for everyone, and it's unnecessary for most GMs, yourself and myself included.

But I've seen enough posts bring up the power of lightsabers to know that this would help those people.

Edit: Here's the most recent of such posts that I've seen: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202966-lightsaber-killed-my-baby/

Sure, reference a scenario where a high exp player with a maxed out lightsaber, rolls well, and kills the bbeg.

It really puzzles me on why people have such lightsaber-phobia. When compared to other things in the game, there are SO MANY more and readily available weapons that can do the referenced a whole lot easier. (looking at you autofire). And yet when people see that Breach 1 they freak. And then they read how someone was able to one shot something and then they start having delusions of grandeur and start making house rules.

A well exp Jedi with a maxed out lightsaber is comparable to a high level Paladin with a Holy Avenger. So yes, sometimes the Paladin is going to drop the hammer quite epicly. That does not mean you nearf the Holy Avenger.

A basic lightsaber, compared to other weapons, is really rather weak (base 6 damage, which is less than a Blaster Rifle/Pistol). IF I was an NPC and I saw a Bounty Hunter with a blaster rifle and Padawan with a light saber coming at me, I would be more inclined to take out the Bounty Hunter first and then worry about the Padawan when he gets to me. Do the simple fact that I can double move and keep the Padawan at range. While the Bounty Hunter does not have to move and can shoot at me all day long.

I am willing to say, that if two brand new characters, one with a Blaster Rifle and one with a basic lightsaber, start out together, that over the course of an adventure, the Blaster Rifle wielder will do more overall damage than the basic lightsaber.

Just put more minions in any given encounter if the desire is to make it more of a challenge. Or make more social encounters where a lightsaber is useless. Like others have mentioned, there is a lot of flexibility within the game.

IMHO, my perception is that this is more anti-lightsaber, than an enhancement of the rules.

But like others have said, your game.

So I do sincerely wish you luck with it.

1) Force users in F&D are not supposed to represent fresh Jedi recruits just stepping off the shuttle at the academy. Most games take place right around Episodes 4-5, when Darth Vader is cruising around in a Star Destroyer looking for the short stormtrooper. Force users with any Jedi ties are learning from a forgotten holocron, or a Jedi who managed to avoid the purge by hiding in a desert or swamp somewhere and avoiding attention.

2) Even during the height of Jedi teachings, true Lightsabers were not issued to students on the first day of classes. When you see the little younglings waving them around with Master Yoda, they are using Training Sabers limited to Stun damage and lacking Breach or Sunder. Those are what the writers intended for aspiring Jedi to wield, which is why they are very cheap by comparison.

3) When the GM allows someone to procure a true Lightsaber (since in this game, it's very much up to the GM when they get all the necessary components, particularly the crystal) then you're admitting to the party as well as to yourself that you're ready for them to have that tool / temptation. Players who solve every problem with their Lightsaber, aren't going to last long in a galaxy full of Imperial spies. The first time they bust that thing out during a bar brawl or dark alley scuffle, there's going to be Stormtroopers chasing them all the way to the docking bay. So the GM doesn't need to handicap the functionality of the Saber, as much as they just need to tailor the storyline elements.

You want a Lightsaber without the hazard of Breach and Sunder? That's what the Training Saber is for.

You want something that looks, feels, walks, and talks like a Lightsaber, but doesn't completely unbalance gameplay from the first session? That's what the Training Saber is for.

You want to wait for the opportune time to reward the players with a true Lightsaber? That's what the Training Saber is for.

You're trying to re-invent the wheel. Don't. Just give them a Training Saber, and stop worrying. =)

Honestly I have seen a +100 crit from a dude using a blaster pistol...

I have a character with a +70 crit roll bonus before even rolling a crit.

I have seen people do 21 damage 6 times with autofire.

The lightsaber is too dangerous with breach arguement doesn't really hold water and the problem with a lightsaber killed my baby had nothing to do with the weapon being a lightsaber there are plenty of weapons that can massacre someone with a crit and do more damage then 12 points on an extremely lucky roll.

Most armor is 2 soak and on average very few big bads will have more then 3 brawn so breach dealing knocking off 10 soak is over kill. Things like rancor's have 12 soak and you have to be insane to actually engage a rancor with a lightsaber,

I honestly think if you can't deal with a light saber you have no real buisness trying to run the game.

There are thousands of things in this game that can utterly murder npcs.

Bind

Move

Unleash

Jury Rigged Autofire

Jury Rigged Crit

Offense in this game is way out of balance with defense to the point where it can turn into who goes first will kill what ever goes next.

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons.

That's fine. In fact, it's sort of the point. Any given house rule isn't for everyone, and it's unnecessary for most GMs, yourself and myself included.

But I've seen enough posts bring up the power of lightsabers to know that this would help those people.

Edit: Here's the most recent of such posts that I've seen: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202966-lightsaber-killed-my-baby/

Similarly breach really isn't all that game breaking when you really look at the average soak of most NPC's and the flat damage of a lightsaber vs the flat damage of most guns or the stacking damage of most melee and the lightsaber comes out about equal if not a bit ahead of smaller arms when it has breach, without it it becomes quite underwhelming. Your average foes in armor are going to have around 4-5 soak meaning half of breach isn't even really doing anything more often than not. Contrast that to a blaster rifle with 9 damage and a few points of pen, a skill that helps you with many more weapons, that can be carried around openly without screaming out to the Empire to shoot on site, that can hit at further ranges, that can hit for more damage to those same enemies more often than not and you should start to see my point.

Don't get me wrong, breach is really good against those very very rare enemies with incredibly high soak and there it certainly edges out other weaponry but take that away and what you have left isn't at all impressive let alone the legendary ancient weapon of the Jedi.

Your example link as well is a specced out high exp player and as someone whose been GMing this since EOTE was released I can tell you any player with that much exp can do some nasty things breach or no breach. The key I think with lightsaber's is those are supposed to be the pinnacle of melee combat and the best way to deal with them is not nerfing them but rather other tactics available in the rules. More minions, environmental setbacks, alternative threats, squad rules from the AOE GM kit, good use of dark side pips, etc. There's just so many alternatives without really resorting to taking what is supposed to be a players epitome of awesome weapon and toning it down to light blaster level of effectiveness.

I mean hell I litterally had a player at the end of the Onslaught at Arda I campaign force persuade the big bad driving an ATST at the end to hop out of his vehicle.

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons.

That's fine. In fact, it's sort of the point. Any given house rule isn't for everyone, and it's unnecessary for most GMs, yourself and myself included.

But I've seen enough posts bring up the power of lightsabers to know that this would help those people.

Edit: Here's the most recent of such posts that I've seen: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202966-lightsaber-killed-my-baby/

The problem in that linked post was the Vicious quality, the low crit rating, plus a very high critical roll. Really had nothing to do with Breach, unless the nemesis in question had an insanely high soak (which wasn't intimated in the post).

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons. Firstly I don't understand he compunction to give force users lightsaber's right off the bat, smugglers and diplomats don't start off like you claim, they start off "ok" at best about equivalently effective as a force user without a lightsaber. Secondly lightsaber's without breach are pretty much garbage, note they do 6 damage not +6 damage making them the rough equivalent of a sh*tty blaster pistol in that they require a skill that works "only" for lightsaber's and have a range of engaged

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons. Firstly I don't understand he compunction to give force users lightsaber's right off the bat, smugglers and diplomats don't start off like you claim, they start off "ok" at best about equivalently effective as a force user without a lightsaber. Secondly lightsaber's without breach are pretty much garbage, note they do 6 damage not +6 damage making them the rough equivalent of a sh*tty blaster pistol in that they require a skill that works "only" for lightsaber's and have a range of engaged. Also with a flat 6 you might as well use nearly any other kind of melee weapon and be better off, hell a character with 4 brawn will litterally be better off with a vibroknife.

On top of this lightsaber's are effectively a giant kill me sign not only to the Empire but to any person who sees or has seen what they can do or even faintly knows the legends of the Jedi.

As for justification for breach (aside from now sh*tty it makes lightsaber's not to have) the movies give more examples than just episode one as the only time they ever strike anyone they either implae them or remove a limb showing they pretty much pass through next to anything they touch.

Two reasons actually.

1) A lightsaber can be modified quite easily by it's wielder. Making it better then a blaster pistol fairly quickly. This is unlike a training saber.

2) Theres potential to build it up to it's full power later.

Of course, everyone getting lightsabers and what not, a whole separate issue that is dependant on campaign that is largely irrlivant. The GM never stated the circumstance of his campaign so anything beyond those facts presented. Personally, if your playing a force senstive, ,you have a big target on your back, glowstick or not. Best kind of campaign being wanted, I should know, my character has 20k credit bounty to his name XD

Im gonna have to agree with Bunny here a breachless lightsaber even if it was upgraded to a base of 10 would still be the equivalent to a sub par heavy blaster rifle as you would have to be engaged so a breachless normal lightsaber mine as well be a training lightsaber that can crit and deal wound dmg

Breach is not over powered its not going to even come into play in most situations. Against most opponents its not going to be any different then pierce 2 or pierce 4, because the opponents aren't going to have soak above 2 or 4.

Lol my GM just introduced an inquisitor with 5 brawn and madilorian armor (soak 2 or 3 i think) and reflect 4

**** i wish we had some breach weapons, but yea breach definitely not OP if anything it"s completely fair what with the fact that you are weaker in the force to start

Feels absolutely unnecessary for me for a few reasons.

That's fine. In fact, it's sort of the point. Any given house rule isn't for everyone, and it's unnecessary for most GMs, yourself and myself included.

But I've seen enough posts bring up the power of lightsabers to know that this would help those people.

Edit: Here's the most recent of such posts that I've seen: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202966-lightsaber-killed-my-baby/

The problem in that linked post was the Vicious quality, the low crit rating, plus a very high critical roll. Really had nothing to do with Breach, unless the nemesis in question had an insanely high soak (which wasn't intimated in the post).

You could get a similar result with a vibro-ax that has the mono-molecular edge (reduced crit rating and more Pierce), balanced hilt (Accurate), and serrated edge (more Vicious) attachments, all at a cost far less than a basic lightsaber. Put said weapon in the hands of a Marauder or Assassin, and you've got a bona-fide murder machine that's going to wreck bad guys on a crit more often than not.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

Eh, that's require everyone to get sense though making it less unique, lightsabers breach is a quality of the weapon and the base rules do increase damage as you get better with any weapon because more of the appropriate stat and/or skill means more success which translates directly into more success/adv/triumph and thus more damage, crits, and weapon quality activations.

It is clear you didn't really read my post. It's about altering the RAW.

You're concerned that your Lightsaber wielding PC group are not going to be unique snowflakes because they all have the Sense ability if they want to parry blaster bolts? How do they parry Blaster bolts? By letting the force guide them, sensing and reacting to what is going on in. I would like the rules to reflect the mythology of the canon. (Well, maybe not Force Zombies)

As for Breach being a quality of lightsabers, do we at any stage see a lightsaber used in a way you would consider using the Breach quality by a person who was not at least a Knight level Jedi or Sith? Nope.

Sure, a lightsaber can 'cut through anything given enough time' so they gave it the Breach 1 quality, which is useless against 2 points of Hull armor. ****, the RAW doesn't work in that instance. I'm trying to look at the puzzles another way.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

As I recall, that's kinda how Wizards of the Coast did their d20 Star Wars. And I will say it was rather disappointing. While they allowed you to start out a Jedi Padawan, serving under a PC / NPC Jedi Master until you became a Knight (around lvl 7-10 as I recall). The whole time, you were walking around with your Lightsaber dealing 2d8 damage... and that's it. No Breach, no Sunder, nothing. Just a laser sword that does 2d8 damage. It was remarkably lame and uninteresting.

I prefer this system, acknowledging right from the start that a Lightsaber is a very dangerous weapon. Even in the hands of an utter mundane, it's still a scary thing. General Grievous didn't have Force training, and yet he was pretty scary. If you make them weak and pathetic until you develop the proper Force powers to enhance them... Han might not have been able to keep Luke alive on Hoth.

To each their own, I suppose. But I like this system better.

Also misrepresenting the Force in this game. Using the Force does not begin and end with the use of powers, it includes Force talents as well. As Reflect is a Force talent, it already has a prerequisite to use it.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

Eh, that's require everyone to get sense though making it less unique, lightsabers breach is a quality of the weapon and the base rules do increase damage as you get better with any weapon because more of the appropriate stat and/or skill means more success which translates directly into more success/adv/triumph and thus more damage, crits, and weapon quality activations.

It is clear you didn't really read my post. It's about altering the RAW.

You're concerned that your Lightsaber wielding PC group are not going to be unique snowflakes because they all have the Sense ability if they want to parry blaster bolts? How do they parry Blaster bolts? By letting the force guide them, sensing and reacting to what is going on in. I would like the rules to reflect the mythology of the canon. (Well, maybe not Force Zombies)

As for Breach being a quality of lightsabers, do we at any stage see a lightsaber used in a way you would consider using the Breach quality by a person who was not at least a Knight level Jedi or Sith? Nope.

Sure, a lightsaber can 'cut through anything given enough time' so they gave it the Breach 1 quality, which is useless against 2 points of Hull armor. ****, the RAW doesn't work in that instance. I'm trying to look at the puzzles another way.

Not sure why you decided to get snarky I wasn't trying to insult you I just didn't much care for your proposed criticisms of the current system.

I did read your post, not sure why on earth you would assume I hadn't given that I addressed the points you made. No I'm not concerned that any force user wouldn't be a "special snowflake" if they all had sense, I simply don't see it as a productive change to place all characters in that path. For one yes both are a "form" of sensing whats around you, though sense is far more broad and wide reaching in that regard allowing for far more flavor and variation between player builds which is not a bad thing in the slightest. This also mechanically helps balance characters as you're going to be able to represent skill with a light saber a lot more when certain specs specifically based in light saber use are better simply at reflecting whilst those better at tapping into the force are better at what the sense power offers but not so much actually deflecting blows with their sabers. It thus fits narrative as not all Jedi where equal with the little variation seen in the application of a single power to represent this, and mechanically in that it allows for a clear advantage to combat focused spec's over spec's that get more force rating instead.

Yes, a saber made of pure energy that can dangerously slice of limbs should be just that. A sword doesn't become less sharp just because it's wielded by a less skilled person, nor a gun any less capable of penetrating a target when wielded by a less skilled shooter. Rather any weapon can deal more damage if the user is more skilled by the power of the weapon itself is static, thus I don't see how making breach something gained with skill makes any sense mechanically nor thematically and as I said damage DOES scale with increased talent be it innate via a higher stat or trained via a higher skill / talents. The raw works fine in that instance, if you're out of structured combat there's no reason a light saber applied to a armor 2 thing couldn't eventually be broken down (best canon example would be in the prequels when they're cutting through the hull door. It wasn't a single swing or even a few swings, it was a slow structured cut, something I'd certainly allow players to do if they had enough time to do so ie higher armor and hull would mean a longer duration required), it just means no matter how skilled you are it's extraordinarily unlikely you'll bust through it in a single turn of combat (given enough triumph and as a GM I just might allow it ala doing something to turn the tide of combat). This said even in the instance of structured combat it is possible to get a light saber with more than one point of breach or with enough successes (though unlikely) to slice through an objects armor. Though there really shouldn't be any situations in which you're trying to run at something with armor 2 with just a light saber unless you have a death wish. Cut a speeder bike in half? Sure maybe. Cut a ship in half? No that's ridiculous. So I'm not sure what scenario you've got in your head that not being able to do much to an armor 2 object without extreme luck is a problem.

Well, people who complain generally want to play a super heros game in star wars but easely forgot that a jedi walk with a weapon capable of slicing metal and get mad because flesh is not very resistant against these weapons.

Lightsabers are fine and in my opinion reflect perfectly what they were meant to be. GM just need to learn how to run a fight with jedi differently than what it use to be in edge or Age of Rebellion.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

Eh, that's require everyone to get sense though making it less unique, lightsabers breach is a quality of the weapon and the base rules do increase damage as you get better with any weapon because more of the appropriate stat and/or skill means more success which translates directly into more success/adv/triumph and thus more damage, crits, and weapon quality activations.

It is clear you didn't really read my post. It's about altering the RAW.

You're concerned that your Lightsaber wielding PC group are not going to be unique snowflakes because they all have the Sense ability if they want to parry blaster bolts? How do they parry Blaster bolts? By letting the force guide them, sensing and reacting to what is going on in. I would like the rules to reflect the mythology of the canon. (Well, maybe not Force Zombies)

As for Breach being a quality of lightsabers, do we at any stage see a lightsaber used in a way you would consider using the Breach quality by a person who was not at least a Knight level Jedi or Sith? Nope.

Sure, a lightsaber can 'cut through anything given enough time' so they gave it the Breach 1 quality, which is useless against 2 points of Hull armor. ****, the RAW doesn't work in that instance. I'm trying to look at the puzzles another way.

Not sure why you decided to get snarky I wasn't trying to insult you I just didn't much care for your proposed criticisms of the current system.

I did read your post, not sure why on earth you would assume I hadn't given that I addressed the points you made. No I'm not concerned that any force user wouldn't be a "special snowflake" if they all had sense, I simply don't see it as a productive change to place all characters in that path. For one yes both are a "form" of sensing whats around you, though sense is far more broad and wide reaching in that regard allowing for far more flavor and variation between player builds which is not a bad thing in the slightest. This also mechanically helps balance characters as you're going to be able to represent skill with a light saber a lot more when certain specs specifically based in light saber use are better simply at reflecting whilst those better at tapping into the force are better at what the sense power offers but not so much actually deflecting blows with their sabers. It thus fits narrative as not all Jedi where equal with the little variation seen in the application of a single power to represent this, and mechanically in that it allows for a clear advantage to combat focused spec's over spec's that get more force rating instead.

Yes, a saber made of pure energy that can dangerously slice of limbs should be just that. A sword doesn't become less sharp just because it's wielded by a less skilled person, nor a gun any less capable of penetrating a target when wielded by a less skilled shooter. Rather any weapon can deal more damage if the user is more skilled by the power of the weapon itself is static, thus I don't see how making breach something gained with skill makes any sense mechanically nor thematically and as I said damage DOES scale with increased talent be it innate via a higher stat or trained via a higher skill / talents. The raw works fine in that instance, if you're out of structured combat there's no reason a light saber applied to a armor 2 thing couldn't eventually be broken down (best canon example would be in the prequels when they're cutting through the hull door. It wasn't a single swing or even a few swings, it was a slow structured cut, something I'd certainly allow players to do if they had enough time to do so ie higher armor and hull would mean a longer duration required), it just means no matter how skilled you are it's extraordinarily unlikely you'll bust through it in a single turn of combat (given enough triumph and as a GM I just might allow it ala doing something to turn the tide of combat). This said even in the instance of structured combat it is possible to get a light saber with more than one point of breach or with enough successes (though unlikely) to slice through an objects armor. Though there really shouldn't be any situations in which you're trying to run at something with armor 2 with just a light saber unless you have a death wish. Cut a speeder bike in half? Sure maybe. Cut a ship in half? No that's ridiculous. So I'm not sure what scenario you've got in your head that not being able to do much to an armor 2 object without extreme luck is a problem.

To support your interpretation, look at what the description says about "Quickflash" Burning Gel (EtU, pg. 52), "...commonly used to cut holes in starships...". In comparison to it's, albeit improvised, use as a weapon; exposure to it is only Pierce 5. Mechanics differ from it's capabilities when used as a tool with an extended scene. Now, true, this is a tool designed for cutting have mechanical stats for being used as a weapon and a lightsaber is a weapon with visual/written history as being a superior tool.

Also about Kanan swiping legs, don't forget that against vehicles Critical can be done if the damage is even a single point over its' armor (i.e. armor 2 having 21 damage done to it). Kanan could have scored a critical, called a shot to a weak location, spent Triumph to do something dramatic to give the "player" a significant advantage, etc., etc. Not everything has to be handled in a mechanical fashion. Example: We had a player who was taking her character force sensitive and managed to get her hands on a lightsaber, no biggie there. During a fight she decided to spend Despair that the enemy rolled to damage his weapon (heavy repeater). She was unsure on how to describe it and asked for help. Though only a couple of talents in to Force Sensitive Exile and no concept on how Reflect would even work, I described it as her swinging her saber in a reverse low arch, catching his blaster shot ant deflecting it back to it's source. Same end result but mechanically impossible at that time. As a result both the player ( and her character) and the rest of the table were stoked for the rest of the fight.

Bottom line is, not everything has to be mechanically perfect.

There is a fair bit about the execution of Lightsabers and force powers in the game I don't really like.

I would have built Reflect differently that it is in the game as it stands. It's really an extension of the Sense skill, not just a particular fencing technique. I wouldn't let anyone buy it without buying at least the first level of Sense to justify the ability.

I view Lightsaber damage differently too. In my old home-brew 7th Sea Star Wars hack the lightsaber had good base damage but it took training and focus to use properly. As a character advanced in 'Levels' of skill, buying the relevant technique, the damage of the weapon increased. Increased Damage was a technique of focusing your will upon the blade emitter itself to increase your damage. Same with Reflect and other powers, you bought ranks to improve your use of the blade.

So, if I'd made the rules, I'd start your Lightsaber off with regular base damage, no breach, and pierce 2 instead. Introduce a new force power that allows them to focus the force into the blade. Dedicate a force point to use the schticks of the power. Probably add ranks in Discipline to base damage to show how focus is key to it's use. Then later as Control goes up, you get reflect and parry tricks. As Magnitude goes up, so do vicious rating and pierce and eventually you'd earn breach at Master level. It doesn't even have to be a big power tree, but it's the approach I'd have taken.

Eh, that's require everyone to get sense though making it less unique, lightsabers breach is a quality of the weapon and the base rules do increase damage as you get better with any weapon because more of the appropriate stat and/or skill means more success which translates directly into more success/adv/triumph and thus more damage, crits, and weapon quality activations.

It is clear you didn't really read my post. It's about altering the RAW.

You're concerned that your Lightsaber wielding PC group are not going to be unique snowflakes because they all have the Sense ability if they want to parry blaster bolts? How do they parry Blaster bolts? By letting the force guide them, sensing and reacting to what is going on in. I would like the rules to reflect the mythology of the canon. (Well, maybe not Force Zombies)

As for Breach being a quality of lightsabers, do we at any stage see a lightsaber used in a way you would consider using the Breach quality by a person who was not at least a Knight level Jedi or Sith? Nope.

Sure, a lightsaber can 'cut through anything given enough time' so they gave it the Breach 1 quality, which is useless against 2 points of Hull armor. ****, the RAW doesn't work in that instance. I'm trying to look at the puzzles another way.

Not sure why you decided to get snarky I wasn't trying to insult you I just didn't much care for your proposed criticisms of the current system.

I did read your post, not sure why on earth you would assume I hadn't given that I addressed the points you made. No I'm not concerned that any force user wouldn't be a "special snowflake" if they all had sense, I simply don't see it as a productive change to place all characters in that path. For one yes both are a "form" of sensing whats around you, though sense is far more broad and wide reaching in that regard allowing for far more flavor and variation between player builds which is not a bad thing in the slightest. This also mechanically helps balance characters as you're going to be able to represent skill with a light saber a lot more when certain specs specifically based in light saber use are better simply at reflecting whilst those better at tapping into the force are better at what the sense power offers but not so much actually deflecting blows with their sabers. It thus fits narrative as not all Jedi where equal with the little variation seen in the application of a single power to represent this, and mechanically in that it allows for a clear advantage to combat focused spec's over spec's that get more force rating instead.

Yes, a saber made of pure energy that can dangerously slice of limbs should be just that. A sword doesn't become less sharp just because it's wielded by a less skilled person, nor a gun any less capable of penetrating a target when wielded by a less skilled shooter. Rather any weapon can deal more damage if the user is more skilled by the power of the weapon itself is static, thus I don't see how making breach something gained with skill makes any sense mechanically nor thematically and as I said damage DOES scale with increased talent be it innate via a higher stat or trained via a higher skill / talents. The raw works fine in that instance, if you're out of structured combat there's no reason a light saber applied to a armor 2 thing couldn't eventually be broken down (best canon example would be in the prequels when they're cutting through the hull door. It wasn't a single swing or even a few swings, it was a slow structured cut, something I'd certainly allow players to do if they had enough time to do so ie higher armor and hull would mean a longer duration required), it just means no matter how skilled you are it's extraordinarily unlikely you'll bust through it in a single turn of combat (given enough triumph and as a GM I just might allow it ala doing something to turn the tide of combat). This said even in the instance of structured combat it is possible to get a light saber with more than one point of breach or with enough successes (though unlikely) to slice through an objects armor. Though there really shouldn't be any situations in which you're trying to run at something with armor 2 with just a light saber unless you have a death wish. Cut a speeder bike in half? Sure maybe. Cut a ship in half? No that's ridiculous. So I'm not sure what scenario you've got in your head that not being able to do much to an armor 2 object without extreme luck is a problem.

To support your interpretation, look at what the description says about "Quickflash" Burning Gel (EtU, pg. 52), "...commonly used to cut holes in starships...". In comparison to it's, albeit improvised, use as a weapon; exposure to it is only Pierce 5. Mechanics differ from it's capabilities when used as a tool with an extended scene. Now, true, this is a tool designed for cutting have mechanical stats for being used as a weapon and a lightsaber is a weapon with visual/written history as being a superior tool.

Also about Kanan swiping legs, don't forget that against vehicles Critical can be done if the damage is even a single point over its' armor (i.e. armor 2 having 21 damage done to it). Kanan could have scored a critical, called a shot to a weak location, spent Triumph to do something dramatic to give the "player" a significant advantage, etc., etc. Not everything has to be handled in a mechanical fashion. Example: We had a player who was taking her character force sensitive and managed to get her hands on a lightsaber, no biggie there. During a fight she decided to spend Despair that the enemy rolled to damage his weapon (heavy repeater). She was unsure on how to describe it and asked for help. Though only a couple of talents in to Force Sensitive Exile and no concept on how Reflect would even work, I described it as her swinging her saber in a reverse low arch, catching his blaster shot ant deflecting it back to it's source. Same end result but mechanically impossible at that time. As a result both the player ( and her character) and the rest of the table were stoked for the rest of the fight.

Bottom line is, not everything has to be mechanically perfect.

Yep and side note it actually is kind of mechanically correct, in that even though it can defy the normal "in combat" stats the advantage / triumph system are very clearly used to circumvent those stats in certain situations allowing a player to do things they normally couldn't with just their raw abilities conveniently via the narrative mechanics of this dice system.

Just as a quick point of comparison: Stop comparing light sabers directly to heavy blasters as they are clearly different categories of weapon. The latter are more difficult to conceal then the former and the latter is clearly an anti-personal weapon then a weapon of self defence. It's like comparing a samurai sword to a accicent era. Much as the former is a fairly capable weapon of self defence, one has to be nuts to advance into the direct firing arc of one of these guns, and no competent defence force would allow a PC to go anywhere in civilised space with one in their procession.

Makes smuggling it in all that more interesting! XD

But yeah, Lightsabers are a personal defence weapon. People who get good with them can take fire extremely well. But like the source material there are certain threats that can make them back off, breach or no breach, generally a lightsaber can't effectively parry an excess in firepower. Thats fine because an experienced lightsaber combatant can effectively mitigate attacks from other lightsabers/ranged attacks that aren't autofire pretty well. So theres advantages, beyond the breach. That and a high crit rating.

Again, having 10 streight damage on a weapon is still much stronger then most personal weapons. It's like having a dueling pistol on that characters person all the time and in a campaign where it isn't a race to have maximun damage. It might do. Just it might make combat drag out if the weapon's aren't modded, and combat generally is only meant to last 3-5 rounds for most part.

Just as a quick point of comparison: Stop comparing light sabers directly to heavy blasters as they are clearly different categories of weapon. The latter are more difficult to conceal then the former and the latter is clearly an anti-personal weapon then a weapon of self defence. It's like comparing a samurai sword to a accicent era. Much as the former is a fairly capable weapon of self defence, one has to be nuts to advance into the direct firing arc of one of these guns, and no competent defence force would allow a PC to go anywhere in civilised space with one in their procession.

Makes smuggling it in all that more interesting! XD

But yeah, Lightsabers are a personal defence weapon. People who get good with them can take fire extremely well. But like the source material there are certain threats that can make them back off, breach or no breach, generally a lightsaber can't effectively parry an excess in firepower. Thats fine because an experienced lightsaber combatant can effectively mitigate attacks from other lightsabers/ranged attacks that aren't autofire pretty well. So theres advantages, beyond the breach. That and a high crit rating.

Again, having 10 streight damage on a weapon is still much stronger then most personal weapons. It's like having a dueling pistol on that characters person all the time and in a campaign where it isn't a race to have maximun damage. It might do. Just it might make combat drag out if the weapon's aren't modded, and combat generally is only meant to last 3-5 rounds for most part.

Well of course there are different downsides to different weapons but a lightsaber in combat is typically going to draw more attention than a heavy blaster if nothing more than the fact of what it signifies about the wielder. Concealment of course is favorable to a saber out of combat but the reason a heavy blaster was used as a comparison was because breach was being taken not do to concealment but do to killing power which other more easily accessible weapons would outshine quickly in terms of combat capability if such a change was made. Given also someone with a bounty hunting license might be able to openly carry a heavy blaster without to much trouble in many places.

As I recall, that's kinda how Wizards of the Coast did their d20 Star Wars. And I will say it was rather disappointing. While they allowed you to start out a Jedi Padawan, serving under a PC / NPC Jedi Master until you became a Knight (around lvl 7-10 as I recall). The whole time, you were walking around with your Lightsaber dealing 2d8 damage... and that's it. No Breach, no Sunder, nothing. Just a laser sword that does 2d8 damage. It was remarkably lame and uninteresting.

I prefer this system, acknowledging right from the start that a Lightsaber is a very dangerous weapon. Even in the hands of an utter mundane, it's still a scary thing. General Grievous didn't have Force training, and yet he was pretty scary. If you make them weak and pathetic until you develop the proper Force powers to enhance them... Han might not have been able to keep Luke alive on Hoth.

To each their own, I suppose. But I like this system better.

Removing breach has one unintended consequence: it no longer is an anti-vehicle weapon.

As written, a damage 6 breach 1 (minimum for non-training LS) still can't hurt a passenger landspeeder reliably; it still requires 4<S> to do damage. And it does (typically) as much damage as a blaster rifle to people...

At Damage 10 breach 2... which is fairly buffed up... it's a threat to most vehicles. 1 vehicle damage and ignores 2 armor. Which means it can get that maneuver crit on the speeder bike... and replicate the scene in RotJ.

No breach? Damage 6 usually won't get to do anything to the speeder bike (it still won't break 10 most of the time). It certainly won't do anything to a TIE... (because the odds of getting 24<S> are pretty slim). The damage 10 still needs 20<S> to get to hurt a TIE/LN.

Plus, reasonable soak for combattant PC's runs into the 12-14 range after about 200 points spent...