In real life I like the Sherlock TV show, paraphrasing 'there aren't any real hero's, and if there are I'm certainly not one'.

Did no one catch the "in real life" which I followed by quoting TV show.

You said in real life I like.

Just means you like the sherlock TV show.

The wording is redundant but the syntax is correct.

So what context if any does that put on our plucky young heroes' actions when they blow them away with complete apathy and borderline glee?

It was a war movie, and in war it's kill or be killed. There's little room for empathy for enemy. In basic training it was something they tried very hard to remove from your thinking. You kill the enemy because they are the enemy and since they are the enemy they deserve to die it's kinda circular thinking but that's something that's drilled into you.

Does that make someone evil? If so then all soldiers are evil.

That makes the Galactic Empire ran by Evil people, not an Evil Empire .

But the policies of the Empire are clearly evil, the methods they use are evil, the goal of it's leadership is evil. If we accept that an organization can be good or evil itself, then what group does is how we must judge it. If we don't accept that, then we're kinda getting into the realms of semantics.

Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

I Love that book. But yes that's a great example and perhaps a whole nother topic of discuss. But the difference between the Federation and the Empire was the Federation was as a whole trying to do what was best for it's people. Something I contend the OT Empire wasn't.

We should accept that an organization must be held accountable to the actions of it's members, at least when those actions are made by those members on behalf of the organization.

There are dissertations that can be written regarding soldiers in Star Wars. Especially on how the Stormtroopers etc are getting more humanized in each revision (see the famous S2E3 example, as well as other theories regarding Stormtroopers missing)

I particularly liked this one: http://www.cracked.com/article_18858_the-biggest-star-wars-plot-hole-explained-by-science.html

I missed this...

I disagree that space opera has to be black and white.

I don't want to derail this too much, but my understanding is that yes it does in fact have to be. If it's not then it's just normal sci-fi

The shows you list as examples aren't really space opera in that sense. Because you're right they do offer nuanced villains.

It was a war movie, and in war it's kill or be killed. There's little room for empathy for enemy. In basic training it was something they tried very hard to remove from your thinking. You kill the enemy because they are the enemy and since they are the enemy they deserve to die it's kinda circular thinking but that's something that's drilled into you.

Does that make someone evil? If so then all soldiers are evil.

Wow what an interesting question. There are those that content they are called to be peacemakers not peacekeepers. That that subtle distinction, to some, infers that yes soldiers are fully culpable. Many a Nazi went to jail or was hung for war crimes when they contended they were only following orders.

That goes to the heart of the Milgram's experiment.

How responsible are soldiers for targeting entire cities when the technology wasn't available for precision strikes. Yet at the same time the bombing of Dresden did little for the war effort.

Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

I Love that book. But yes that's a great example and perhaps a whole nother topic of discuss. But the difference between the Federation and the Empire was the Federation was as a whole trying to do what was best for it's people. Something I contend the OT Empire wasn't.

Yet when they attacked the 'skinnies' early in the book their actions seemed 'evil'.

We should accept that an organization must be held accountable to the actions of it's members, at least when those actions are made by those members on behalf of the organization.

That is one of the things that I think makes the Empire Evil. It was founded in such a way that its members could never be held accountable.

Especially on how the Stormtroopers etc are getting more humanized in each revision (see the famous S2E3 example

I'm not familiar with S2E3. But I don't agree with that article you posted. I mean I get the logic behind it somewhat. But that is really nothing more than justification for mooks, and I don't think we need to come up with convoluted logic for why a mook can't hit the hero.

Also if ST helmets are really that bad, then why are they wearing them? Who in their right mind would issue equipment that makes the troops wearing it less effective? Equipment has to make people more not less effective, part of that includes protection, but protection can and will be sacrificed if it interferes with a soldier performing his or her duty.

So if the helmets are that bad, and the author said if they just took them off they'd win... Then you have a even bigger plot hole then the one he was trying to fill.

The Stormtroopers were IMO anyway designed to seem subhuman. I mean if you think about how many of them were killed in ANH the movie could've been rated R. But the armor was made to take away their humanity so no felt bad about them getting blasted.

We should accept that an organization must be held accountable to the actions of it's members, at least when those actions are made by those members on behalf of the organization.

I don't know if I can agree with this fully, at least not without qualification. Yes at least as far as current events and most recent memories an organization and or government should be held accountable. But for how long? As I pointed out these organizations represent the people who run them and after a time those are no longer present. Making war reparations is a normal thing, but again for how long. Should a country be responsible for how it fought a war 200 years ago?

Aside from rambling about accountability I'm actually getting back to the point that society's moralities change over time. It is often difficult to objectivly look at historical war time evens and not judge them by what we perceive is wrong today.

P.S. yes Space Soap Opera's typically are good against evil. Also it is interesting to note that:

Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction set mainly or entirely in outer space, that emphasizes space warfare and melodramatic adventure, and often risk-taking as well as chivalric romance; usually involving conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, futuristic weapons and other sophisticated technology.

If you have a "conflict between opponents" where neither are good nor evil you may have lost 99% of the audience. And it's all about rating baby.

Many a Nazi went to jail or was hung for war crimes when they contended they were only following orders.

When I was in the US Army one thing that was also drilled into us, was that we not only could, but must disobey an illegal order.

The people you mentioned were typically the ones carrying out atrocities, rather than normal troops.

Yet when they attacked the 'skinnies' early in the book their actions seemed 'evil'.

But they were instructed to very careful to keep casualties down, and they were also trying to break the skinny/bug alliance. Not saying they were right or even good. But they again were trying to do what they saw as was best for their people. Something I don't think you can say about the Empire.

So what context if any does that put on our plucky young heroes' actions when they blow them away with complete apathy and borderline glee?

It was a war movie, and in war it's kill or be killed. There's little room for empathy for enemy. In basic training it was something they tried very hard to remove from your thinking. You kill the enemy because they are the enemy and since they are the enemy they deserve to die it's kinda circular thinking but that's something that's drilled into you.

Does that make someone evil? If so then all soldiers are evil.

There is absolutely room for empathy which is multiplied x10000 if you're a Star Wars "good guy". War is abhorrent for a number of reasons not the least of which is what it does to the survivors, many are haunted by what they've done and what they've been through.

Meanwhile in the SW universe there is no PTSD. War is more of a mild inconvenience than arguably the worst invention sentient beings have come up with, which in the SW universe dulls the evil of the Empire. Due to its limitations as a child friendly media, War is an adventure! Ezra doesn't wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat reflecting on the lives he has taken. Star Wars good guys show just as much respect for Imperial lives as the Imperials do for theirs. Aren't they supposed to be held to a higher moral standard than the Imperials?

To take on your point directly, Imperial Stormtroopers have to go through years of rigorous training/brainwashing to unflinchingly take sentient life without remorse. All it takes it for the "good guys" is putting a weapon in their hands and pointing them in a general direction. The Black and White here is anything but clear cut despite the writers intentions which why SW is such a great vehicle to discuss such things.

Here's a semi-canon related question for those who know. Are most Stormtroopers volunteers or conscripts? Same goes for most of the standard Imperial sailor?

I seem to remember one novel I read way back when talking about how they effectively slaves... But Rebels seems to make it seem like they're volunteers.

Aren't they supposed to be held to a higher moral standard than the Imperials?

That's a great point, one that could be explored more fully in the stories, but isn't. I mean in SWTOR for example my Jedi has killed thousands perhaps millions of Sith troops... He's got more blood on his hands then Hitler and Stalin combined, and in his case it was him doing it, not just him ordering it.

Yet he's a good guy, and a hero to the whole galaxy.

Here's a semi-canon related question for those who know. Are most Stormtroopers volunteers or conscripts? Same goes for most of the standard Imperial sailor?

I seem to remember one novel I read way back when talking about how they effectively slaves... But Rebels seems to make it seem like they're volunteers.

The answer is YES.

It's a big Empire. Some are volunteers, some are clones of the top 5% and I am sure some are conscripted. At least in legends...

Aren't they supposed to be held to a higher moral standard than the Imperials?

That's a great point, one that could be explored more fully in the stories, but isn't. I mean in SWTOR for example my Jedi has killed thousands perhaps millions of Sith troops... He's got more blood on his hands then Hitler and Stalin combined, and in his case it was him doing it, not just him ordering it.

Yet he's a good guy, and a hero to the whole galaxy.

Good guy and hero?

Did you see Serenity? Was the assassin really a good guy? He killed women and children for what he thought was the good of the galaxy.

This thread should have been called morality in the star wars universe..

You know. I was born in a small town called Royal Leamington Spa. over 34 years ago.

I'll quote a fellow Leamingtonian.

"Ordinary Morality is for Ordinary people". -Aleister Crowley.

Good guy and hero?

Did you see Serenity?

Well yes to both and that's a great point.

My Jedi is a hero in the narrative sense since he is the hero of the story, and is good based on the alignment system used in the game. The assassin in Serenity was the bad guy, because he was fighting the hero of the story.

A side topic note on an Off Topic topic.

VanorDM, if you haven't you might consider checking out a local Socrates Cafe' sometime.

This thread should have been called morality in the star wars universe..

That would of been a better title, but we were discussing the evil empire and if the Republic was itself evil as well.

Good guy and hero?

Did you see Serenity?

Well yes to both and that's a great point.

My Jedi is a hero in the narrative sense since he is the hero of the story, and is good based on the alignment system used in the game. The assassin in Serenity was the bad guy, because he was fighting the hero of the story.

You are so right and for movies, and video games, that is enough.

I watch most movies to escape reality not to dwell in the depths of it. Star Wars, Avatar, etc. do that just fine for me. Not that I don't enjoy history or documentaries. But I like the Sci-Fi Fantasy for the escapism.

Two other things.

First this has been a great discussion and one of the reasons I love this community... The fact that we can discuss fairly deep and potentially offensive topics like this and be not only reasonable but thought provoking is great.

So big kudos for that.

Second when/if we're done discussing the Empire I'd like to hear people's thoughts about the Jedi being evil. Myself I've never really thought of them that way so I'd like to hear the reasons.

Regarding your KOTOR hero:

"ohhh Great Warrior. Wars not make one great". - Yoda

Two other things.

First this has been a great discussion and one of the reasons I love this community... The fact that we can discuss fairly deep and potentially offensive topics like this and be not only reasonable but thought provoking is great.

So big kudos for that.

Second when/if we're done discussing the Empire I'd like to hear people's thoughts about the Jedi being evil. Myself I've never really thought of them that way so I'd like to hear the reasons.

Compare them to ISIS.

They take children and indoctrinate them in their warrior-esqe religion. Taught never to love and to never hold anything over the ideals of their religion. Taking kids and making them virgin zealots ready to kill and die for their religion is not moral in any universe.

They aspire to follow the will of the living force. Hard to call them evil.

aaand after reading the above, wow I stand corrected.

They aspire to follow the will of the living force. Hard to call them evil.

I by and large think the Prequels Jedi are completely messed up, but I don't know that I'd call them evil.

I mean let's consider it from an in-universe PoV... The Force is effectively the source of all life, and at least once George said that the Dark Side was not part of the balance but was an aberration in the Force.

That effectively makes the Force especially the Living Force a deity and if that's true carrying out it's will is hard to classify as evil. Unless the argument is that the Force itself is somehow evil.

That doesn't mean their methods are correct, I think the whole 'A Jedi can't feel love' was bad writing...

They aspire to follow the will of the living force. Hard to call them evil.

I by and large think the Prequels Jedi are completely messed up, but I don't know that I'd call them evil.

I mean let's consider it from an in-universe PoV... The Force is effectively the source of all life, and at least once George said that the Dark Side was not part of the balance but was an aberration in the Force.

That effectively makes the Force especially the Living Force a deity and if that's true carrying out it's will is hard to classify as evil. Unless the argument is that the Force itself is somehow evil.

That doesn't mean their methods are correct, I think the whole 'A Jedi can't feel love' was bad writing...

At the risk of getting too political...

Divine Command theory isn't moral for any non-practitioners or non-believers. "Because the Force said it was good, therefore it is good" Is the complete absence of morality and completely removes personal accountability.