Since the Rebels thread was getting derailed, but the disucssion is at least semi-interesting I thought we could continue it here. I'll post a link to this thread in the Rebels thread.

So where's Darius?

I thought I would kick this off with this, because I did want to address it, but didn't want to derail the Rebels thread.

Umm but they Senate did stand buy and have endless debates while the people Naboo were essentially taken into slavery.

I get the impression they are less evil and more paralyzed by bureaucracy. Chancellor Valorum I believe was little more than a figurehead at that point in the Republic. The Senate had reached a point where it was so powerful and so splintered that Republic was pretty much incapable of doing anything.

Palp knew this and preyed upon it. The Trade Federation apparently had the law on their side in blockading Naboo, or at least they could twist the law that way. They also had enough votes in the Senate to block any real action to stop the blockade.

So it wasn't that the Republic didn't do anything they couldn't do anything, and Palp knew it, so he set up a situation that would be tailor made to get him elected as Chancellor, and when that happens, he could put the next phase of his plan into place that would give him "temporary emergency powers" which he could then use to make them not so temporary.

Question: Was Snape the real hero of the Harry Potter series or a villain?

He was neither and both, which did make him an interesting character. He clearly lashed out at Harry because of how much Harry reminded him of James, but also wanted to protect him for Lily's sake. He was redeemed before the first book, and was used as a double agent because of his past. In the end it was only him who could do what was really needed which is fairly heroic even if what he did was fairly horrible.

Oh and Thrawn.

One thing I liked about Thrawn as a character was that he struck me as someone who truly believed that the Empire was the right answer to what the Galaxy needed... He wasn't the "kick a puppy" evil, but rather in a way was more akin to Deloris from the Harry Potter books, the Lawful Good villain. Someone who does evil things but honestly believes he's doing right things. I guess you could say an extreme version of the ends justifying the means.

That's something Palp did not have however, nothing I've ever seen suggested that he was even remotely interested in what was best for the Galaxy or it's people he wanted power and that was the end goal. He was the epitome of the Sith in that he wanted power because power brought freedom, and nothing could be allowed to stand between him and power.

So if he had to enslave whole races, commit genocide or use Sith powers to destroy half the galaxy to make himself immortal... Then so be it, because he was the only thing in the whole universe that really mattered, and everything was either a means to the end, or something to be destroyed for getting in his way.

So where's Darius?

Sorry, thursday = my rice special day. I was nomming.

I was going to find the time to post a huge thesis, but time is one of those things thanks for making this topic Vanor.

Ok, so The Evil Empire.

Why is it evil?

The answer Why will come up a lot in pretty much every response I'll do here. I could say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. - But we all know the Emperor was a card carrying evil bad guy with no redeeming qualities whatsoever (if anyone has proof in existing canon to the contrary, please please post it). In truth I hate that narrative, in star wars it's a product of it's time, and of the narrative it's based on (30's flash gordon) but really, that just doesn't happen. We see him as a master manipulator, we see him as an evil Sith Lord but that's it.

So what makes an Empire evil? It's leader being evil isn't enough. Not every member of said Empire is going to be evil, we'll see true believers (Minister Tua comes to mind).

We'll see Corrupt politicians. Well.... come on, we can laugh at the jokes that brings up right. Where do we see any other kind?

We'll see questionable policies. Ok, you are doing this - why?

We'll see bully boy tactics from individual people in power? Such as the two fairly petty and now dead Imperial officers from Rebels.

It's no secret that the Empire is based and influenced heavily by Nazi Germany (perhaps the 2nd most "evil Empire" involved in World War 2... maybe the third if we count Belgium). so that has to be a factor. Nazi Germany was definitely an evil empire example. The concentration camps and systematic ethnic cleansing by default make it so.

The Empire don't really do this that I have seen. The only example I can think of is the Lasat, and we only see that from the Rebels standpoint. We don't know why. For all we know they refused to join said Empire/attempted to secede, and therefore were brought to account via military means (although I accept such means were excessive).

So what makes the Empire evil. What policies make it so that it's a bad guy Empire.

Is it because it's run by a single dictator? Nope - Benevolent Dictatorships have existed in the past.

Is it because he was particularly nasty to his subjects? Aside from Alderaan (not an action executed by Palpatine - though accountability should reach him) what evidence is there that Palpatine specifically ordered any direct nastiness after order 66?

The second most recent Rebels ep at the time of writing was focused on the mining guild. Several dozen civilians at least murdered by terrorists and space whales - from the Empire point of view. From a rebel point of view... um... a PMC that had fuel - at best?

Now, I really hate to be doing a BKL and I apologize, but I am going to bring up TIE Fighter.

This is no longer canon, but it's the only real great example of an Imperial point of view (henceforth referred as POV)- because of that it's used as my example of an Imperial POV.

From this POV the Empire is a good thing, dealing with internal conflicts, clearing space raids of pirates, stopping terrorists? That all sounds good right?

To my knowledge - based on repeated playthroughs at no point do you commit war crimes in TIE Fighter. The nearest we see is Harkov being executed by Vader for Treason (what? Spoiler alert for a 22 year old video game?). That sounds legit, there wasn't much due process there - but... Vader. Vader was due process. Even his ship was called the Executor.

I could probably spend the better part of a week crafting this post to perfection showing different points of view if I had the time, and I should disclaim that From a Narrative perspective, I utterly get that Empire bad, Rebels good, it's a 70s sci fi based on simple fluff . I'm not totally senile yet. I understand the point of Star Wars.

Now I want to deconstruct it.

What makes the Empire Evil.

What makes the Freedom Fighter/Terrorist Rebels better?

What made the Republic better?

Ending this post with a quote from Machiavelli's the Prince.

"It must be considered that there is nothing more difficult to carry out nor more doubtful of success nor more dangerous to handle than to initiate a new order of things; for the reformer has enemies in all those who profit by the old order, and only lukewarm defenders in all those who would profit by the new order; this lukewarmness arising partly from the incredulity of mankind who does not truly believe in anything new until they actually have experience of it."

Edit: Note. Wow. that's a wall of text. It was also tiny compared to what I was going to put, I was a lot less thorough here due to time constraints.

Two other thoughts, both sort of disclaimers.

I do not buy the argument that most villains believe they're doing the right thing. There is no doubt some who do. Dolores Umbridge was one of the greatest LG villains ever... Or Lex Luthor depending on which era... He again wasn't the 'kick a puppy' evil but rather took the idea of the ends justifying the means to an extreme. He honestly believed he was doing what was best for the world.

But that doesn't mean all villains believe they're doing the right thing, or are doing it for the right reason. The Joker for example is clearly not believe he's doing the right thing.

The other is, I get that some people like the Empire for one reason or another. I tend to assume they like the aesthetics more than anything which I get. These same people may refer to Rebels as scum or terrorists... But I don't think most of those people would really approve of the destruction of Alderaan or enslaving the Wookiee race.

So as perhaps a ground rule... We can accept that anyone who does is speaking from an in universe/RP stance and not really saying they'd approve genocide as a way to make a point.

Fair points Vanor.

Myself, I think Lex Luthor IS the good guy (at least current era)as is Doctor Von Doom. Humans should learn to stand alone and not rely on Superman.

You knew I would say that, I think.

One of my favourite Sci Fi Characters is Zechs Merquise from Gundam Wing (Trieze too) They are baddies, but generally being bad for the right reasons.

Also, another Machiavelli quote which seems to fit well:

“My view is that it is desirable to be both loved and feared; but it is difficult to achieve both and, if one of them has to be lacking, it is much safer to be feared than loved.”.

Complete tangential sidenote: I believe that the D&D alignment system chaos v order good v evil is also total BS.

Secondary tangential sidenote: You can do this with more than just Star Wars. Analyze Star Treks federation sometime, and 40K's glowing best feature is that it's all about this.

But in the real world, if that is what we are comparing Star War too, there is little if anything that is solely good or evil. There is both an all things.

Being from the U.S. we are taught that Democracy is something great, etc... but 2,300 years ago Aristotle spoke about the evil of many types of governments including Democracy and how it could lead to tyranny. Even during President Reagan's term we head the phrase 'one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist'.

Perhaps the Star Wars Emperor is ultimately evil; period. But most of the rest, even the Empire, falls some where in between, even the Jedi.

Yes, as a duology goodvsevil belongs in the trash along with the Palpatine was secretly a goodie argument. Life is way way more complex than that. You can go into a leaders psychology, group psychology mob mentality etc. You could even see a case for the Joker above. He was a mentally damaged/deranged character who just needed help. Alternatively: http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=678724

Zechs from Gundam wing wanted world/global peace, but believed an apocalypse was required to bring it about.

There is a TV trope for this too... Well intentioned extremist I believe.

Now I want to deconstruct it.

What makes the Empire Evil.

Let's look at that. Because I think that is an interesting discussion.

First off, we have to keep in mind that it isn't just 70's sci-fi it's Space Opera, and that sub-genre has always had a black and white PoV as part of its core, you can't write a space opera without that, or else it's not space opera it's just standard sci-fi.

George wanted a space opera akin to Flash Gordon and the like.

So what makes the Empire itself evil. Well I think the first thing to consider is can any organization truly be evil? I mean can any group be inherently evil itself? Can IBM or Microsoft be evil? Can a political party be inherently evil? Or is it what the group does that matters?

Myself I'm inclined to say the group is evil because of what it's members does. But there's a definite case where a group of 'evil' people would attract more like minded people.

So what makes the Empire evil? The people who run it do.

We can look at Nazi Germany as an example, because that's what it was largely based on. Not all members of the Nazi army were evil, many of them were simply defending their homeland. Most of them didn't even know what was going on in the camps.

But a lot did, and they found reasons to excuse it. At that point I think you really have to count those people as guilty as the ones who pulled the trigger or switch. I don't think you can ever justify standing by and doing nothing.

But I wouldn't call those people evil, just cowards perhaps.

But when you have a large % of the group either wilfully ignorant or worse aware but unwilling to do anything, and the smaller % who are in charge actively evil. It's easy I think to call the group evil.

The Empire was the same way. You'd have a % of the group who don't know what's going on and doing what they think is the right thing. I think that % would be fairly small, you couldn't rise very high without finding out what's really going on.

The bulk of the group would be either true believers or people who for one reason or another won't speak out. Maybe they are afraid, maybe they figure as long as it's not me it's ok.

But there is no doubt that the leaders of the Empire, the Moffs, the Admirals, Vader, the Emperor, ect... were actively evil and willing to go to any length to maintain their power.

So when you have people at the top like that, the people in the middle unwilling to stop it, and the ones in the bottom unable to stop it, I think that's enough to qualify the group as being evil.

That said, I don't think the Empire was irredeemably evil I think that Thrawn or even the Imperial leaders in Aftermath could of in theory at least created a kinder, gentler Empire that truly did have the best interest of the people as it's goal.

Yes, as a duology goodvsevil belongs in the trash along with the Palpatine was secretly a goodie argument.

The problem is, while I get that point and to a degree, agree with it. That is the foundation for Star Wars, as I said black and white is at the core of Space Opera and that's what Star Wars was.

Which isn't to say we can't discuss things. Just that black and white is where we have to start at. I'll also point out that the First Order is the same type of black and white Evil that the Empire was...

To the point that Fel's Empire was actually benevolent. (and had Imperial Knights in the legacy comics)...

That's a fair argument.

The thing is though, as I had pointed out above: With Nazi Germany we have something that we can pin on and say "Yep, this is an evil empire, and this is why".

With the Empire, not quite so much.

Tarkin is a great example of an 'evil' character. He is in my opinion the best example from the OT. He's not the big bad in command, but he does have authority. He does hold Vader's leash. He himself orders the destruction of Alderaan and in the EU does much more (and indeed has the Tarkin doctrine). Remember what happened to the guy who accused Daala of sleeping her way to the top? Yeah. Tarkin is a ruthless SOB. He was also one of the Grand Moffs.

His actions, without him being head of state are a compelling argument to the overall Empire being evil.

But is he just a bad example? Were there other benevolent Grand Moffs or sector overlords?

The new trilogy is based on the old, and therefore traces roots to the same black and white.

I disagree that space opera has to be black and white. I present my evidence that it does not with the 2003 series of Battlestar Galactica. The cylons were a lot more complex than their 1970s roots.

I'd reinforce with secondary evidence. The mid 90's series Babylon 5. Even the big bad ohmygod eldritch abomonations, the Shadows were really more teachers and caretakers that lost the message.

Even Alfred Bester had somewhat noble intentions.

We can look at Nazi Germany as an example, because that's what it was largely based on. Not all members of the Nazi army were evil, many of them were simply defending their homeland. Most of them didn't even know what was going on in the camps.

But a lot did, and they found reasons to excuse it. At that point I think you really have to count those people as guilty as the ones who pulled the trigger or switch. I don't think you can ever justify standing by and doing nothing.

But I wouldn't call those people evil, just cowards perhaps.

[...]

So when you have people at the top like that, the people in the middle unwilling to stop it, and the ones in the bottom unable to stop it, I think that's enough to qualify the group as being evil.

That said, I don't think the Empire was irredeemably evil I think that Thrawn or even the Imperial leaders in Aftermath could of in theory at least created a kinder, gentler Empire that truly did have the best interest of the people as it's goal.

Talking about the ones in the middle have you heard of the milgram experiment. That, in many a person's opinions, proved that "good" people can easily be driven to evil acts. Authority is and has interesting side effects.

Yes individual Imperial officers, officials, and soldiers might be good but the organization is rotten, even in Legends which eventually saw the Empire lose its evil status it didn't do so until the war destroyed the Imperial leadership to the point that a Palpatine era Star Destroyer captain was running the show. Without the Rebellion gutting Imperial high command there is no proof it would have changed for the better.

And regarding Palpatine himself and the corruption in the Old Republic senate do you really think turning a corrupt republic government into a dictatorship run by the most corrupt member of the old regime, one responsible for a war that killed millions or billions jst to gain more power, is somehow less corrupt?

His actions, without him being head of state are a compelling argument to the overall Empire being evil.

But is he just a bad example? Were there other benevolent Grand Moffs or sector overlords?

Well we could get into a sticky mess of canon vs non-canon/EU stuff. But IME, Tarkin was typical of most of the Imperial leadership. Looking at Aftermath there was one Imperial leader who I thought was really trying to do the right thing. The rest were clearly only interested in their personal power.

I guess the question is, how many if any examples of good Imperial leaders are there? Or even just ones who truly wanted what was best for the Galaxy?

Because to me, that's part of what makes them evil, the fact that they have no interest in doing what's best for the people and only in their own personal power.

Authority is and has interesting side effects.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. What separates the Emperor from others though was he was corrupt before he had power.

Really good discussion here, I only have a few points:

Darius mentined the "bully" aspect of the Empire, and I think that is mostly a sterotype they have put in the show, simply to show the kids "Hey, these are the bad guys" In reality, every military or organization with authority has people like that. I like to think there are mulititudes of Imperials who aren't like that, and to be fair, not every Imperial in Rebels is a jerk. For every few "Buillies" we see, we get a "They do that now?". I think it would be awesome (albeit very unlikely) if they actually showed Imperial Humanitarian efforts. It would probably throw the show outta whack, but might make kids think.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. What separates the Emperor from others though was he was corrupt before he had power.

It is interesting that you chose this quote since in its entirety it states ""Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Almost being a key word but still rather damning.

@RogueCorona: Why is the organization Rotten? I know Pelleon was a good man, what's to say there were not others. In the old EU/Legends canon there was at least one Grand Admiral who refused to do war crimes etc, and overall was a "good" character, who was ironically executed by the new republic.

Also: Was Palpatine the most corrupt member? Most in charge sure. Most corrupt? I'd argue he got there because of the inherent corruption of the old republic.

Really good discussion here, I only have a few points:

Darius mentined the "bully" aspect of the Empire, and I think that is mostly a sterotype they have put in the show, simply to show the kids "Hey, these are the bad guys" In reality, every military or organization with authority has people like that. I like to think there are mulititudes of Imperials who aren't like that, and to be fair, not every Imperial in Rebels is a jerk. For every few "Buillies" we see, we get a "They do that now?". I think it would be awesome (albeit very unlikely) if they actually showed Imperial Humanitarian efforts. It would probably throw the show outta whack, but might make kids think.

Just remember the one stormtrooper in S2E3. "Don't do it..."

Please don't make me shoot you, Miss bounty hunter that just killed my 3 best mates.

Hey, unrelated. Has anyone here watched Journeyquest? If so - what do you think of the Paladin?

If we go by the EU, Palpatine was an evil character right from the start. Noble family, rich parents, believed himself above the laws etc... Narratively a character you really want to hate.

I'm usually not a giant fan of one dimensional bad guys a la Sauron (movies, haven't read the books), but the Emperor is exception. One of the the great things I loved about the prequels (blasphemy?!) is how it showed that the Emperor earned that title. Evil yes, but absolutely brilliant and he ran circles around everyone especially the Jedi. The smartest guy in the room and imo the most powerful force user we've ever seen on screen. Yes we should hate/strongly dislike the Emperor, but we should also respect what he can do.

It's easy to write evil dudes, harder to write good dudes so here's a better question: Are the good guys good?

I think we agree not all stormtroopers or TIE Fighter pilots are evil. So what context if any does that put on our plucky young heroes' actions when they blow them away with complete apathy and borderline glee? When they blow up a Star Destroyer we don't see the low ranked Equipment Operator being burned alive in the engine room. With up to 47,000 human beings on those ships I think its fair to say there is a decent amount of them that are either conscripted or just trying to get a college education. Yet no hero I've seen on screen (Rebels, OT, TFA) so much as blinks when it comes being responsible for death and they kill people in droves. Which is kind of weird behavior for such a clear cut black/white distinction between "good" and "bad".

How many rebel sympathizers and innocent people did Luke kill when he blew up the Death Star? There was a whole Detention Level with that went up to at least cell block AA-23 with at least 2817 cells in each block. At the bare minimum we can assume 64,791 prison cells. Even if half of them were occupied that's 32,395 people what never got even a token rescue attempt. I guess we all can't be princesses. If we go with the idea that there were miraculously no other prisoners or that everyone that puts on an Imperial uniform has to steal candy from a child first making them all evil we are left with a different question. In the absence of real moral hard choices or consequences can our heroes even be good? Does it take a little gleam off their shiny good guy armor?

In real life I like the Sherlock TV show, paraphrasing 'there aren't any real hero's, and if there are I'm certainly not one'.

Ohhhh the goodguys in Rebels REALLLY have issues.

I think this is the basis of why this discussion kind of tied up the rebel's thread.

Cats are evil

Cats like Lasers

The Empire built a Superlaser.

The Empire are cats.

The Empire is evil.

I'd like to posit another thought...

IMO a big part of what made Palpatine and Tarkin evil was the why . I don't think either one of them did what they did out of any sense of civic duty. They had no interest at all in what was best for the Galaxy.

They wanted power for purely selfish reasons, and that is IMO one of the worse forms of evil. You can't even say 'well they did because they believed they were best suited to rule the galaxy' like you could say with some villains, such as Von Doom.

So what examples from Legends or new canon are there of Imperial leaders, both pre and post Endor that were truly interested their civic duty.

I think Thrawn was, and so was Rae Sloane from Aftermath. They may not of done nice things, but they at least were doing them for what they believed to be the right reasons.

Absolutely, the Why is truly what's important, Tarkin & the Emperor were evil. That makes the Galactic Empire ran by Evil people, not an Evil Empire .

I think Minister Tua from Rebels genuinely gave a ****.

I'd love to look at further examples as they happen, there have been a good number of recently introduced Imperial officers that actually make sense, or have been reinvented to do so. Grand General Tagge for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vceY27HUAK4

Hey, another fun example: Well, two fun examples. No, three.

Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

The governments from the Aliens universe

The UNSC from the HALOverse.