So.... I have a feeling i'll get shot down by some here but I really don't care and YES, I know that this is a forum and I don't have to read stuff that people post...

I am really fed up with people moaning about 2 things...

Firstly, that certain ships need FIXES in the form of upgrade cards or else they are useless and aren't playable at all

and secondly, that these fixes along with some other cards are only in certain packs and that this is a major failing on FFGs part...

So, my input to this is the following...

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

there, I said it.... wait, let me go a little more indepth...

The first point about the fixes is totally wrong... all ship are playable. They come in a box with the ship and the stem and some neat little chits to put in the base and some pilot cards.. FFG are also kind enough to provide a dial... there! magic, its playable! now, I agree that some upgrade cards make some ships "better" (that is, more cost effective) but they are by no means useless without them. People seems to jump (here and on facebook) on new players who even mention the TIE/Advance with "OMG NO!!! you CANNOT run it wihtout the raider expansion!!! NO NO NO!!!"... well... why not? people can run what ever they want surely? and, especially in friendly, fly casual games - why not run an advance without the title? Same with integrated astromech, sure it's a great card - not needed though.

I think a lot of the internet uglies have a problem in deciphering between "NEED" and "WANT", maybe it has something to do with an unfulfilled upbringing, who knows...

Integrated Astromechs lead me in to my next point - people moaning about the availability of some cards... Well... get over it - that's just the sale method they have chosen. People don't complain about the rarity of popular Magic cards or Pokemon Cards. NONE of the cards are NEEDED for any ship to fly so either get the cards you want/need by buying the ships OR use different cards.... but either way, drop the moaning...

At the end of the day, we must remember that we are pushing models of pretend ships around a table and make believing that they are shooting each other - get a grip

God forbid people express their opinions on the internet!

There is nothing wrong with using a medium provided by a company to let that company know you are unhappy with how they market their product. Now, you may disagree with those complaints. There is nothing wrong with that either. By all means debate the matter with them. That is literally what forums are for (Or at least, what tye word originally meant). But don't belittle other people's attempt at dialogue. That's just being a jerk.

Especially since the forums provide you with an ignore function if you really don't want to see what they have to say.

As far as the advanced goes, Vader was viable before the fix, he and all the other adv are much, much better now though. FFG has never released an unplayable ship and they are by far much more careful in what they put into ships now. The fact remains though that for competitive players it didn't make sense to field anyone but Vader, you would never see an ORS, very few people field defenders currently. These ships are playable but they aren't efficient and that is a huge aspect of competitive. FFG has flat out said that they messed up with certain ships, a lot of them came from before Xwing got as big as it did and it was a casual game of what if. People asking or talking about fixes is to be expected. People complaining because fixes come behind sometimes significant investments is also to be expected. I play this game with a couple friends and we have a communal collection so it's not as big a deal but if I was going at this alone then I certainly would not be as willing to shell out for certain ships I never use just to get a card or two.

Well, "SHUT THE FRAK UP" is not a very educated way to say what you think.

I will no explay myself long, but I think this is a bullet with my name on it.

As said before, my ONLY critic ( critique ) about FFG policies is the no cost upgrade mods release option. Models, wide range of ships, money, number of waves... All OK. As somebody said, FFG is a great company that produces great games. You will find few or no moaning in my posts.

Soontir, if you have a problem with people that say that FFG is not perfect and that this detail or other could be changed to improve purchaser's game experience...well, then you have a problem. And not a small one.

All said, good or bad. Relax a little and enjoy wave 8.

You are on a forum that is for the most part concerned with competetive play. More competetive ships mean a more open and enjoyable metagame for us. There is nothing wrong with debating where fixes are needed and what they should be. To be honest, I don't really get what you want to accomplish with this thread.

God forbid people express their opinions on the internet!

But when we come right down to it, free speech includes my right to tell you to shut up. What it does really is prevent me from actually making you do so.

While sure you can debate some of these issues, most cases when you try you're shouted down and often called names.

If someone had a right to express their opinion, then anyone can express any opinion, including that int their opinion other people should shut up.

While that's not conductive to a reasonable discussion, sometimes the discussions aren't actually reasonable.

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

No.

tie advanced with Maarek Stele UNTITLED, accompanied by Tetran Cowal and Carnor Jax (both built to the hilt) took me to 3rd in the tournaments, and realistically, I prefer Accuracy Corrector to the ATC anyway, the ATC is dependent upon having a tgt lock on the correct opponent, whereas I can guarantee 2 hits every time I fire regardless of any other dice modification abilities...

The point being 3rd in a store tournament with an untitled advanced AFTER the titles were released is pretty solid that the ship was plenty flyable before the "fixes"

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

Really?

I know that even sincere posts can come across rude or sarcastic and that isn't my intent. Unless I'm mistaken this is an open forum.

I thought that was part of what this forum is for? Perhaps you're on the wrong forum, again I'm not meaning to be rude or telling you to leave. Rather that it doesn't appear that like people sharing ideas you don't prefer. But this is an open forum and unless people get nasty or talk about inappropriate subjects; people sharing ideas and even a little complaining or whining is what some people are going to do. If that's not for you then rather than asking everyone one to change for you there might be a more acceptable forum else where more in line with your preferences. Just a thought.

[P.S. too much whining does tend to get on everyone's nerves]

Try complaining about people complaing - that will show them the error of their ways.

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

But when we come right down to it, free speech includes my right to tell you to shut up.

Try complaining about people complaing - that will show them the error of their ways.

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

If you were only seven years old, that would still be immature . All caps? "Frak?" That is pathetic.

But when we come right down to it, free speech includes my right to tell you to shut up.

Since when was the right to free speech expanded from protecting against government censorship to allowing people to be annoying, childish, and unreasonable on companies' internet forums? That may be an internet pastime, but it is not a right.

It's not as though he's breaking FFG policy AFAIK. He's venting which should be allowed.

Who said that this kind of nonsense is not allowed?

People regularly stamp their feet and gnash their teeth with all kind of half-cocked ideas on this forum. An official response would be a waste of time, but criticizing people who say dumb things is also not against the rules here.

...but some ships do need fixes. X-Wings weren't seeing [much competitive] play before the Integrated Astromech, Tie Advanced was nowhere to be seen, Defenders are rare, and Tie Bombers even rarer, etc.

I WANT to see a large variety of ships. Discussions about why some ships are less competitive and what can be done about it are useful for drawing attention to the matter. FFG might even be inspired by the rare good suggestion.

I disagree with your point entirely. This complaint thread is far more pointless than any of the ones it bemoans, imho.

Since when was the right to free speech expanded from protecting against government censorship to allowing people to be annoying, childish, and unreasonable on companies' internet forums? That may be an internet pastime, but it is not a right.

Oh and you just had to go and bring reality and legality into it. Oh wait was sticking my tongue out a childish response?

God forbid people express their opinions on the internet!

But when we come right down to it, free speech includes my right to tell you to shut up. What it does really is prevent me from actually making you do so.While sure you can debate some of these issues, most cases when you try you're shouted down and often called names.If someone had a right to express their opinion, then anyone can express any opinion, including that int their opinion other people should shut up.While that's not conductive to a reasonable discussion, sometimes the discussions aren't actually reasonable.

At the end of the day, the only people who can moderate discussion here are FFG's appointed officials (That was kind of tautological, but you get my point). But we can apply social pressure to discourage dialogues or forms of argument we find distasteful. The OP is doing it, and so am I. The OP finds the complaints annoying and doesn't want to see threads about them (If I've misrepresented your position, Soontirfel, I apologize. Please correct me if that is the case and I will edit my post to reflect your actual position). I don't want people to be driven away from the forum by people belittling their opinion.

... I'm getting pretentious again. I'd better stop here.

At the end of the day, the only people who can moderate discussion here are FFG's appointed officials (That was kind of tautological, but you get my point).

I find threads that are basically nothing but complaints distasteful, whether it's complaining about how FFG does things, or how much the Imperials suck, or how much a given ship needs a fix, or how people should stop complaining.

They're all the same thing, but that means all of them can have some value. It also means all of them are going to be heavily impacted by the tone of the OP. There's a fairly meaningful difference between complaining and constructive criticism. But that's a difference many people seem to miss.

I see far too many threads that are nothing but whines defended by calling them constructive criticism. I've also seen far too many threads when someone tries to debate the issue they're subject to ad hominem attacks such as fanboy.

As you point out we can do nothing and we should be able to do nothing to really police these boards, people can complain, and people can complain about the complainers. The only thing we can do is report posts we don't like to the Mods and let them deal with it.

I find threads that are basically nothing but complaints distasteful, whether it's complaining about how FFG does things, or how much the Imperials suck, or how much a given ship needs a fix, or how people should stop complaining.

Most of the complaint threads are a waste of space and energy (we are in one of them), but a limited number may have value.

FFG can always check its sales to see that a ship is not popular, but complaints about that ship can provided detailed feedback as to why that ship is not popular. I do not doubt that some on the forum feedback has been valuable in gauging what players want out of future releases, fixes or otherwise.

Also, complaint threads allow FFG to see which of its policies, some of which cannot be effective measured by sales, are not popular. That ridiculous debate about cross-faction dials is a good example of a time when player complaints resulted in, or at least contributed, to a policy change that benefited the players.

Would it be better if we called for "fixes" to make a ship viable in play instead of just playable? A naked HWK could be considered playable in that you can put it on the board and have all of the mechanics work but that is generally a LONG way from being a viable ship to put in your squadrons that is likely to contribute in a meaningful way.

You could easily say that the viability of ships lies along some kind of bell curve. On one side you have those ships & combinations that are played all the time and on the other side the ships which you almost never see. Now how certain ships that may be a little closer to the middle interact with the top ships goes a long ways towards determining the metagame and can keep the top ships from dominating everything but those ships toward the bottom end still don't see play.

What I want to see fixes do is move those lowly ships up the power curve to a point they actually start getting consideration when it comes to squad building. Ideally if you plotting ship use vs. "power" I'd like to see a relatively flat line or ideally a single point. What fixes should do is move the game closer to that point.

Try complaining about people complaing - that will show them the error of their ways.

SHUT THE FRAK UP...

If you were only seven years old, that would still be immature . All caps? "Frak?" That is pathetic.

But when we come right down to it, free speech includes my right to tell you to shut up.

Since when was the right to free speech expanded from protecting against government censorship to allowing people to be annoying, childish, and unreasonable on companies' internet forums? That may be an internet pastime, but it is not a right.

It's not as though he's breaking FFG policy AFAIK. He's venting which should be allowed.

Rapture should also be allowed to tell him to shut up. We have entered the infinite loop of free speech.

There seems to be a need for gamers who profess to love a game, to want to fix that game. By fix I mean make it work the way they and not the designers want.

This is a completely natural occurrence on the interwebs and should be encouraged. As it gives us something to read on slow news day.

Cheers

Baaa

The best way to lose one's frustration over complaint threads is probably to concentrate on threads that you actually do feel are worthwhile. And there is something positive to be done here. I've noticed that many threads suffer from a kind of limited thinking when it comes to 'viable builds'. Very often a certain card or combo is dismissed as 'not viable' or 'not competitive', ending discussion about the actual game too quickly. So what I would do is try to encourage debate about the actual game, because a lot is left untouched because of that dismissive mentality. Concentrate on the positive if you're bothered about the negative?

Soontir on the loose!

CALL THE GHOST-BUSTER!

Soontir on the loose!

CALL THE GHOST-BUSTER!

Ain't afraid of no Ghost....

wait a second... Ghost is a rebel ship.

now I'm lost.

Banana!

Soontir on the loose!

CALL THE GHOST-BUSTER!

Ain't afraid of no Ghost....

wait a second... Ghost is a rebel ship.

now I'm lost.

Banana!

Maybe he meant Phantom?

Or is that a Rebel ship too...?

But also... a TIE...

I need to go lie down.

Thank you for the many and varied replies - I won't reply to each each and every rather I will clear some issues up...

I'm all up for free speach - but not of a pointless variety (yes. I see the irony of a post moaning about posts that moan...). I thoroughly enjoy reading posts like 'how would you improve...', 'whst ship would you change.. ' etc etc... What I cannot abide are posts that just knock the business model with no real reason...

My example being the card issue - we know that's how the process is we just have to deal with it. Ffg are a company who want to make money, putting a card in one very expensive box works, just moaning does nothing!

And no, this post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular - nor was it written with any venom nor any real anger. As I said at the end of my OP, we play a game of pretend space combat, a little levity goes a long way and I tend not to take it overly seriously.

To the people calling me childish for using the word 'frak' over the word it obviously represents I am sorry you feel that way - it's a habbit I picked up from old gamesworkshop forums and assumed it was better than using the full expletive - in the future I'll bring the full force of my colourful language...

Fly easy

Soontir