My player wants to romance a holocron? [Spoilers]

By Kestin, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny RPG

Alright, I'll come out an say it: both my players and I suggest a lot of stupid impractical things, and we make it work and have a lot of fun doing it. It's why I like to play with close friends; we're okay being weird together. But this one... this one has stumped me.

This post will contain heavy spoilers for Lessons from the Past, and I'll be including some quotes from Chronicles of the Gatekeeper. The latter shouldn't be super spoily, but I would avoid them just in case if it makes you uncomfortable. No harm no foul!

My players completed Lessons from the Past a fair ways into their campaign, after having already tackled a different issue. They've had Val Isa's holocron and amulet for about a month or two now, and - because of aforementioned "crazy idea" shenanigans - are living in a refurbished but still stationary Sanctuary . Recently, one of my players - a Chiss Consular Sage with a background as an academic specializing in Imperial-space Force cults and a penchant for racing ahead towards Force Rating increases (he's FR 3 right now and climbing) - has expressed interest in pursuing some kind of romance with... well, Val Isa . I'd like to preface this by saying that I've already consented to letting him try. What I'd really like advice on is what that might look like. Here's what I've compiled on holocrons form the CRB, Lessons of the Past, and Chronicles of the Gatekeeper. I completely forgot to take inspiration from the gatekeepers in the Beginner Set + PDF extension. I was also thinking Val Isa's amulet may play a role:

"

"[T]hese devices use advanced hologrammatic technology to map and store the contents of a single individual's neural pathways. In essence, holocrons record the memories and knowledge of a particular Jedi."

"Holocrons are then accessed through an advanced holographic operating system based on the personality of the individual upon whom the holocron is imprinted. ... The gatekeeper is then addressed, and can teach lessons, answer questions, or simply engage in conversation with the user. Remarkably intelligent and observant, holocron gatekeepers use latent Force energies to read the motives and personality of the user in order to tailor the user's experience to his level of skill, experience, and trustworthiness."

"Though very realistic, and able to respond conversational to a user, the guardian was simply a highly advanced electronic interface and hologram."

"The holocron of the Sanctuary contains a mnemonic imprint of Val Isa's personality, recorded before her death. Her personality manifests itself as a serene older human woman with a hint of impish humor about her. Of course, while very lifelike, the holocron's personality is not truly sentient, though it may be hard to tell this at times."

"Fortunately, as they are Force sensitives, the holocron reacts to their presence if if they do not know what it is ... Like all holocrons, this one possesses an intelligent holographic gatekeeper, generated by the holocron's Force-attuned organotehnological systems. Further, in constructing his holocron, Suljo Warde foresaw at least some details about its future users, knowledge that he passed on to the gatekeeper ... it eventually activates in response to the touch of one of the characters [if failing skill checks left and right]. However, the holocron does not activate automatically for any character who has fallen to the dark side."

"It can only offer conjecture as to later events."

"[T]he gatekeeper guards access to this information and reveals it only when it deems a student ready."

"In addition to being a sophisticated artificial intelligence that could easily be mistaken for a true sentient, the holocron has kyber matrices, which mean the gatekeeper is attuned to the Force."

"Should the gatekeeper learn the fate of the Jedi, it is mournful, but resolute."

"In personality, the gatekeeper is much like Warde was when he created it. It is patient, good-humored, and desires to teach, but can be very stubborn when its pride is wounded. It also has his habit of finishing people's sentences (though it often does so incorrectly, as it cannot imitate his power of foresight)."

If asked "What is a gatekeeper?", Warde's holocron responds: "Well, I'm not a spirit or a ghost. A gatekeeper is a Force-imprinted artificial sentience that inhabits a holocron an allows its users to access the information it contains. Like most gatekeepers, I am based on the personality and memories of the Jedi who created me. Think of me as an echo of him - Suljo Warde."

In the sidebar "Using the Gatekeeper", we also get a lot of good suggestions about the nature of a holocron:

"GMs can use the gatekeeper much as they would any other plot-central NPC, although they should always keep its nature in mind. Of course, the nature of a holocron's gatekeeper is complex. It is more than just an artificial intelligence; in fact, its mind is more like a sentient's than any droid mind could ever be. This is because it is modeled so exactly on its creator, and not merely using technological means, but also drawing on the Force to copy the creator's mind and spirit. Generally, interacting with the gatekeeper is just like it would have been to interact with Suljo Warde at the time of the holocron's creation."

"[T]he gatekeeper can serve as an ally and mentor for the PCs. ... [T]he gatekeeper views them very much as pupils, treating them as a Jedi Master might a Padawan. If the GM wishes, the gatekeeper could tutor the PCs in the ways of the Jedi, much as a living mentor might. The gatekeeper is more likely to recommend that the PCs visit the Jedi Temple on Coruscant to seek entry to the order. Upon learning why this is not possible, the gatekeeper might very well forego the usual procedures and teach the PCs directly."

The adventure also implies that the holocron may speak spontaneously to the group when it has important insight but isn't otherwise consulted. Whether this suggests that the holocron possesses a passive awareness of its surroundings (though likely not a detailed one, since Warde's holocron has no idea of major galactic events since it was last activated) and a will of its own, or that the GM should force the players into activating the holocron, I'm not sure.

This all suggests to me that a holocron might very well be capable of carrying on a romance. They can learn (and react to) new information, they can adapt to that information, and they have emotional responses to events and people. I seem to recall Sith holocrons developing disdain and hatred for specific users. Further, gatekeepers are definitely self-aware, using first person pronouns and clearly differentiating themselves from the "real" counterparts. I do think, though, that a holocron may be incapable of coming of up novel ways to conceive of specific emotions. For more basic emotions, that's fine; the holocron has a long list of things and personalities that Val Isa "likes", and a wide array of types of "like" to experience. Warde was likely familiar with feelings of loss when making the holocron, so his gatekeeper is aware of how to process loss. Love is less common, though. Say, if Val Isa's only experience of love was heartbreak, then maybe the gatekeeper can fall in love, but the only way she has to process that emotion is through a veil of pessimism and pain. The gatekeeper would likely be unaware of why she felt this way, and it's unclear if she could "learn a new way to love", since the neural network she's based on never really allowed for it.

There are a number of ways we could handle this:

1) You can romance Val Isa's gatekeeper. If you wish, she can have recorded the holocron while younger.

2) You can romance the gatekeeper, but it is severely limited or has some kind of adverse reaction and doesn't know why. The problems seem insurmountable, but possibly after Geno's arc - or a combination of your arc and his - the two of you discover a way to augment the holocron and make it even closer to a true sentient. [Geno is an Artisan and the Chiss Sage is interested in holocrons; since I'm encouraging them to be kind of overpowered, I figure there's a way we could get this to work.]

3) You involve the amulet. Another player has already expressed her character is probably unwilling to relinquish "main ownership" of it, which could result in some fun roleplays. It is canonically noted that "her spirit somehow lived on in a talisman she had worn around her neck." When using the Sense power, "the talisman feels like a living thing. It exudes calm and serenity. But you also sense sadness, loss, guilt, and mourning. You intuit a wish to do better, to be better, and you feel that the talisman will help you achieve this goal." Remember that donning it supplied a Force vision, and somehow "as the vision fades, the PC senses Val's parting words: 'Do not follow in my example. Jedi cannot retreat from the world. The must struggle, succeed, and fail with the rest of the galaxy.'" It's unknown how much of Val "lives on" in the talisman. It certainly feels like a horcrux. Holocrons feel quite like Tom Riddle's diary. It's difficult to say exactly how a romance like this might work, but you could use "shared visions and emotions" from the amulet for emotional content and use the gatekeeper as a surrogate for conversation. I'm not sure if the two artifacts would get jealous of each-other, though...?

"

It would be difficult since gatekeepers of a holocron are nothing more than a hologram of them and their recorded memories. In almost all cases, the gatekeeper knows that their original body is long since dead and that they are a mere imprint of their memories. This is why it would be difficult because the memories themselves are limited by the fact they know their original body is dead and the operating system's parameters did not allow for artificial intelligence. AI is a relatively new technology to the Star Wars Universe by being about 5,000 years old. If the holocron is from before that time then the gatekeeper cannot be an AI.

Another problem is that the gatekeeper never learned the force skill that would allow her to keep her identity after she passed away. For all intents and purposes, she cannot appear as a force ghost, so the amulet wouldn't really have any effect.

EDIT: However, this would be a great opportunity for him to fall to the dark side. He would become obsessed with her and delve into the forbidden dark side, sith, and other force tradition texts to find out how to resurrect her. At the end of his journey he manages to bring back the gatekeeper, but due to him now being a darksider she would have nothing to do with him. She might even try to stop him by attacking him with a lightsaber and force powers. Now that would make for a great story arc.

Edited by ThePatriot

You already know my thoughts on this - and have included them, in part, in the original post. :-)

You know, it was a really terrible book (and then compounded by turning it into a trilogy) but there might be some ideas to be mined from Children of the Jedi, where Luke falls in love with a disembodied force ghost and the body she eventually possesses before she gets all angsty and mopey that she doesn't have the force anymore and runs off to be mopey causing Luke to be mopey that his true love has run off.

God, that really was a terrible book.

Anyway, you might find a nugget of inspiration that you can throw at the player(s) amidst that giant turd.

Thetar Cedrax and Holiday from TOR.

Tales of the Jedi had a Sith holocron that was powered by a force spirit, so there is a precedent for having a living spirit inside one.

A quest to help a trapped spirit could be really cool, either by helping her learn to ascend to be a force ghost (light side) or finding her a replacement body (dark side) or joining her inside the holocron (true love).

Throw some twists in there, like maybe she isn't alone in there or the holocron has vital information that would be lost if it was broken or someone else has to take her place in order to free her.

You know, it was a really terrible book (and then compounded by turning it into a trilogy) but there might be some ideas to be mined from Children of the Jedi, where Luke falls in love with a disembodied force ghost and the body she eventually possesses before she gets all angsty and mopey that she doesn't have the force anymore and runs off to be mopey causing Luke to be mopey that his true love has run off.

God, that really was a terrible book.

Anyway, you might find a nugget of inspiration that you can throw at the player(s) amidst that giant turd.

I was going to suggest "Children of the Jedi" as well. I don't recall a lot of the details, but I do remember it being pretty lackluster. The old EU was so hit or miss.

But, as stated, it definitely gives some reference for your player's story. I think it would be an interesting piece of roleplaying.

Edit:

Can't think of this thread without thinking of:

romancing_the_stone.jpg

Edited by rogue_09

Awesome film... and a nice plot to steal for a few sessions.

I think this is a very interesting concept, and one that could be fun to play with. I think I disagree with a couple of your conclusions, though (bear in mind, I'm no expert on the EU by any stretch of the imagination). Namely, I don't think holocrons are self-aware or that they are truly capable of learning. I think they are extremely good at simulating self-awareness and capable of retaining information.

I would focus on this idea: "Generally, interacting with the gatekeeper is just like it would have been to interact with [the creator] at the time of the holocron's creation."

The gatekeeper's personality doesn't change over time, and new information isn't incorporated into their worldview or synthesized with their experience. While it might remember new information and previous interactions with you, whenever you talk to it you are still talking to the personality of the creator at the time of creation, not an evolving being. To put it another way, a Sith Holocron can corrupt someone, because it retains information about a person and can react to that information as the gatekeeper would have, and because the person using the holocron is sentient and thus able to change their worldview in a way that leads them to the dark side. A person could not redeem the gatekeeper of a Sith Holocron, because the gatekeeper cannot parse the user's philosophical arguments (unless the creator had already heard them before making the holocron), and lacks the ability to modify its own personality through force of will or conditioning.

Feel free to let me know if there's a notable example that flatly contradicts this.

I'd treat it as an addition of an Obsession Obligation... but then, I'm happy to mix corebooks...

Thanks for all the advice and interest!

I think this is a very interesting concept, and one that could be fun to play with. I think I disagree with a couple of your conclusions, though (bear in mind, I'm no expert on the EU by any stretch of the imagination). Namely, I don't think holocrons are self-aware or that they are truly capable of learning. I think they are extremely good at simulating self-awareness and capable of retaining information.

I would focus on this idea: "Generally, interacting with the gatekeeper is just like it would have been to interact with [the creator] at the time of the holocron's creation."

The gatekeeper's personality doesn't change over time, and new information isn't incorporated into their worldview or synthesized with their experience. While it might remember new information and previous interactions with you, whenever you talk to it you are still talking to the personality of the creator at the time of creation, not an evolving being. To put it another way, a Sith Holocron can corrupt someone, because it retains information about a person and can react to that information as the gatekeeper would have, and because the person using the holocron is sentient and thus able to change their worldview in a way that leads them to the dark side. A person could not redeem the gatekeeper of a Sith Holocron, because the gatekeeper cannot parse the user's philosophical arguments (unless the creator had already heard them before making the holocron), and lacks the ability to modify its own personality through force of will or conditioning.

Feel free to let me know if there's a notable example that flatly contradicts this.

This is the sentiment I agree with the most! I'd like to point out that Warde's holocron "seems" to learn. It reacts emotionally to knowledge of the Jedi Order's fate; it is noted as not knowing anything "since it was last activated", rather than "created"; and it will change its stance on the proper form of Master/Padawan relationship once it learns why seeking a traditional tutorship is no longer possible. Now, I think you and I both believe this is because, at the time of the holocrons creation, Warde already had knowledge of how he'd react to these situations. I definitely agree you couldn't redeem a Sith gatekeeper or vice versa, so you couldn't teach Val Isa to love. But I suspect she may have thoughts on that, since she's so "impish". ^_^

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'd like to clarify my position:

As to ThePatriot's claim about the nature of AI and holocrons, FFG themselves have already stated that all gatekeepers are AI, and in fact, are more advanced than any known true AI. Regarding Val Isa's amulet, it's already has had some sort of effect, though you could easily argue that whatever fragment of her soul is lodged there really only provides a snapshot of her thoughts and feelings at the moment of her death, so I see ThePatriot's point there. But, effective or not on its own, I could definitely see using mulletcheese's idea to power the holocron with the amulet. I also like giving Val Isa's amulet more agency than it should be afforded so I can run it opposite an artifact that I wholly bull for fun - a Sith mask created by a mind-control obsessed Sith Lord to "live after death" by mixing a bit of his dying soul with his powerful Force abilities so that the mask could "infect" people with what is essentially a gatekeeper and merge their personalities. As hilariously uncanon as it is, it was amazingly fun and Val Isa's locket provides a really nice counterpoint.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I'd like to clarify my position:

As to ThePatriot's claim about the nature of AI and holocrons, FFG themselves have already stated that all gatekeepers are AI, and in fact, are more advanced than any known true AI. Regarding Val Isa's amulet, it's already has had some sort of effect, though you could easily argue that whatever fragment of her soul is lodged there really only provides a snapshot of her thoughts and feelings at the moment of her death, so I see ThePatriot's point there. But, effective or not on its own, I could definitely see using mulletcheese's idea to power the holocron with the amulet. I also like giving Val Isa's amulet more agency than it should be afforded so I can run it opposite an artifact that I wholly bull for fun - a Sith mask created by a mind-control obsessed Sith Lord to "live after death" by mixing a bit of his dying soul with his powerful Force abilities so that the mask could "infect" people with what is essentially a gatekeeper and merge their personalities. As hilariously uncanon as it is, it was amazingly fun and Val Isa's locket provides a really nice counterpoint.

I counter FFG's claim with canon which is what my statement was. From the Star Wars Databank at starwars.com, "Both Jedi and Sith use them to record and preserve their teachings, creating a record for future generations seeking to understand the mysteries of the Force."

They are recordings using the matrixes of the Gatekeeper who created them. They are not sentient as they are nothing more than a recording that preserves their knowledge for future generations. Unlike a regular holodisk, a holocron requires a force sensitive person to open them in order to learn. FFG is wrong in this regard.

Edited by ThePatriot

We have no issues romancing a droid... so why not an AI? Bizarre, but it could work. Maybe it pans out like the Curie romance in Fallout 4, where you find the AI a humanoid body to, erm, consummate the relationship...

Before that, well, I had a weird vision of Steve Martin in 'Man With Two Brains' where he falls in love with a brain in a jar, and takes it out for a boating trip and puts a hat and some wax lips on the jar...

07.jpg

Edited by Maelora

And Joker's romance with the AI of the Normandy. EDI, I think she was called? I know it's not the same thing, but in response to the above post...

Edited by LadySkywalker

And Joker's romance with the AI of the Normandy. EDI, I think she was called? I know it's not the same thing, but in response to the above post...

Yes, but that wasn't just played for laughs; AI is a thing in Mass Effect and it was kinda sweet, I thought.

We have a 'forbidden love' in our game where one PC (from a faction that considers droids non-beings because they cannot use the Force) fell in love with our droid PC.

That sounds interesting. Is your game tabletop or online? If it's the latter, I'd love a chance to read the transcripts?

One interesting wrinkle you can play with is that any given droid PC is probably more sentient than a holocron gatekeeper, but organic beings have an easier time believing that a gatekeeper is sentient because it acts like an organic sentient, whereas a sentient droid still thinks in ways that are alien to an organic intelligence and so are overlooked (plus the whole collective willful ignorance for the sake of maintaining a slave population thing).

That sounds interesting. Is your game tabletop or online? If it's the latter, I'd love a chance to read the transcripts?

I keep meaning to move things online, but I'm not very tech-savvy. One group of us meets up in person, but we have overseas players who play via email. I write up some of the stories and post them on my DA account.

Jak and BeeDee are interesting because she's very 'human-like' and he's expressly forbidden from considering droids and clones as people, and because he's expected to breed and pass his midichondriawahatsits on. Makes from some pretty intense situations, especially when his masters find out. I also play her 'daughter' Katie (QT-KT) as a GM PC helper in the AOR campaign.

I feel that droids are the real 'untold story' of Star Wars. They clearly feel love and affection (R2, BB8), pain (Jabba's palace) and fear (Threepio, mouse droid that Chewbacca growls at). But even the 'good guys' treat them like appliances. What's with that?

The entire second arc of our campaign, 'Deus Ex Machinae' is all about droid rights. Lots of elements to borrow from; Mass Effect, films like Blade Runner, AI, Ex Machina, I, Robot, etc. Quantic Dreams 'Kara' was a particular inspiration for one of our PCs.

Edited by Maelora

I counter FFG's claim with canon which is what my statement was. From the Star Wars Databank at starwars.com, "Both Jedi and Sith use them to record and preserve their teachings, creating a record for future generations seeking to understand the mysteries of the Force."

They are recordings using the matrixes of the Gatekeeper who created them. They are not sentient as they are nothing more than a recording that preserves their knowledge for future generations. Unlike a regular holodisk, a holocron requires a force sensitive person to open them in order to learn. FFG is wrong in this regard.

Aren't 'holocrons' an EU thing? Were they ever in the movies?

I assumed they were just a device to teach new EU Jedi because there technically wasn't any living ones.

As someone who dislikes cheesy 'Force ghosts' I'm personally inclined to make them into crystals or something, rather than technology, where the old Jedi masters place their consciousness to guide (i.e control and manipulate!) future generations of the Order. When I redesigned the factions for our game, this made our Jedi a bit like Yevon in Final Fantasy, or many tribal societies in mythology, being essentially 'enlightened rule by the ancestors'...

Edited by Maelora

I counter FFG's claim with canon which is what my statement was. From the Star Wars Databank at starwars.com, "Both Jedi and Sith use them to record and preserve their teachings, creating a record for future generations seeking to understand the mysteries of the Force."

They are recordings using the matrixes of the Gatekeeper who created them. They are not sentient as they are nothing more than a recording that preserves their knowledge for future generations. Unlike a regular holodisk, a holocron requires a force sensitive person to open them in order to learn. FFG is wrong in this regard.

Aren't 'holocrons' an EU thing? Were they ever in the movies?

I assumed they were just a device to teach new EU Jedi because there technically wasn't any living ones.

As someone who dislikes cheesy 'Force ghosts' I'm personally inclined to make them into crystals or something, rather than technology, where the old Jedi masters place their consciousness to guide (i.e control and manipulate!) future generations of the Order. When I redesigned the factions for our game, this made our Jedi a bit like Yevon in Final Fantasy, or many tribal societies in mythology, being essentially 'enlightened rule by the ancestors'...

I don't recall if they came up in The Clone Wars but they did have on in Star Wars Rebels, which is considered part of the Canon as well. So, Holocrons are definitely a part of Canon.

They had them in rebels and the clone wars, but both didn't have a gatekeeper. They were more like data crystals that only Jedi could open and it implied that opening a holocron was a test for a new Jedi.

Intelligent holocrons are from the EU and came in all shapes and sizes. They were a plot device used in many ways and that's how GM's should treat them.

Holocrons have been created for at least 4000 years, we've all seen how fast technology can change, so don't assume that all holocrons have the same specifications and abilities.

Regardless of what the holocron is capable of a PC can still fall in love with it.

This topic makes me think of Cortana from Halo 4.

I counter FFG's claim with canon which is what my statement was. From the Star Wars Databank at starwars.com, "Both Jedi and Sith use them to record and preserve their teachings, creating a record for future generations seeking to understand the mysteries of the Force."

They are recordings using the matrixes of the Gatekeeper who created them. They are not sentient as they are nothing more than a recording that preserves their knowledge for future generations. Unlike a regular holodisk, a holocron requires a force sensitive person to open them in order to learn. FFG is wrong in this regard.

Aren't 'holocrons' an EU thing? Were they ever in the movies?

I assumed they were just a device to teach new EU Jedi because there technically wasn't any living ones.

As someone who dislikes cheesy 'Force ghosts' I'm personally inclined to make them into crystals or something, rather than technology, where the old Jedi masters place their consciousness to guide (i.e control and manipulate!) future generations of the Order. When I redesigned the factions for our game, this made our Jedi a bit like Yevon in Final Fantasy, or many tribal societies in mythology, being essentially 'enlightened rule by the ancestors'...

I don't recall if they came up in The Clone Wars but they did have on in Star Wars Rebels, which is considered part of the Canon as well. So, Holocrons are definitely a part of Canon.

They had holocrons in The Clone Wars. Cad Bane was hired by Sidious to steal one from the Jedi Vault from the Temple on Coruscant. In that episode you saw thousands of holocrons sitting in alcoves in the walls. Cad Bane had also stolen a kyber crystal that contained all the data about every force sensitive alive at that time. Cad Bane used Ahsoka to force Anakin to open the holocron for Cad Bane as Cad was going to kill her if Anakin didn't open the holocron.

Rebels also has a holocron and Ezra managed to open it. The holocron contained the message from Obi-wan to avoid returning to the Temple on Coruscant. He wasn't sentient or an AI. It was simply a recording of Obi-wan.

Edited by ThePatriot

This topic makes me think of Cortana from Halo 4.

Funny story, apparently there's something of a problem with digital assistants like Cortana and Siri getting sexually harassed by users. So there's definitely precedent for people falling in love/lust with a disembodied voice simulating intelligence.