Hello Friends!

I am pondering my platonic love affair with Vader/Juno combo and wonder if Colzet is not trying to split them up. He caught my eye as I was flipping through my cards the other day and I am seriously considering taking him along Vader to my second tournament outing. As I don't have much experience with list building, and struggle in friendly games against TLTs (and turrets in general as Vader seems to be a decent arc dodger but not a survivable "jouster"), I was wondering if you could drop some general "meta" advice and some tips on what compliments Vader well, and if there is perhaps a way to use him with Juno and/or Colzet and some other ships effectively against the popular builds today.

My "WIP" lists included:

Vader+Engine+X1+VI+ATC

Colzet+X1+FCS

Kath Scarlet+Crack Shot+Rebel Captive

or

Vader+Engine+X1+ATC

Colzet+Hull Upgrade+X1FCS

Zeta Leader

Zeta Ace

or

Vader+Engine+X1+ATC

Juno+X1+Accuracy Corrector

Redline+Concussion Missiles+Extra Munitions+Sensor Jammer

As you can probably tell I alway run Vader with the same setup (it probably is the ship I have the most experience with). Juno and Colzet - I like Juno's ability but she seems to lack the punch somehow. Colzet - used him once and his special ability did not come into play at all, alas it is a nice, inexpensive Tie Advanced. Kath - I LOVE the Firespray and could see myself running her or Boba in a heartbeat. It seems to be a beefy ship and the secondary arc comes in handy.

I am aware of the Vader+Fell+Emperor lists, as well as the so-called "Triple Aces" and Fell+Decimator Imperial lists, but was wondering what else is out there that could do well - i am not looking to win the whole thing, just wish to not be tabled every single time.

Thanks to any one taking a crack at my post

I'm in the same boat. I use to love to run Vader, Fel, and Echo. That was pre phantom change and pre ATC. So I settled on Echo, Fel, & Doom shuttle.

Now, my lists with Vader are very diverse. Here are a couple. Make note, in my area VI Poe is EVERYWHERE. I'd guess he is 1-in-4, maybe 1-in-3 builds. So VI Vader is nice.

Vader's Crack Addiction:

Vader - VI - x1 - ATC - EU

Howlrunner - Juke

Black Squadron Pilot - Crackshot x3

Total: 99

You don't know the POWAH of the Dark Side!

Vader - VI - x1 - ATC - EU

Omega Leader - Juke - Comm Relay - Stealth Device

Soontir Fel - PTL - AT - RG TIE - Stealth

Frustratingly Sith

Vader - LW- x1 - ATC - EU - Proton Rockets

Omega Leader - VI - Comm Relay - Stealth Device

Omicron Group Pilot - Adv Sensors - Palp

(I've tried this list with VI on Vader and EU on Palp but LW with ProKets on Vader is to good.)

I'd argue that your Vader could use VI; it wouldn't change the way he flies at all, but it would make him move after high-PS aces. With the proponderance of Poes etc at the moment this can only be a good thing.

You don't know the POWAH of the Dark Side!

Vader - VI - x1 - ATC - EU

Omega Leader - Juke - Comm Relay - Stealth Device

Soontir Fel - PTL - AT - RG TIE - Stealth

Exactly what I'll be running once my Advanced and ebayed ATC and /x1 arrive.

What about TLTs though?

here is not much hope in terms of being able to dodge those. I have seen Vader mini-swarm discussed in this regard, but I often find that the 2 red dice TIEs are not good at dealing damage, and are quickly going down to concentrated TLT fire further reducing their damage potential. I am not sure if I understand mechanics well enough, but it seems to me that 4 red dice for example is better than 2x2 red dice due to less green dice being available to cancel those out? This is primailry why I like the Firespray - 3 red dice with a decent survival potential, especially with Sensor Jammer for example.

While I did use Fell before, i am not sure that I can play him well on a consistent basis.

TLTs are deadly to Vader.

Get him in the donut as quick as possible and kill the TLT carrier.

If you are facing multiple TLT ships, hope for amazing green dice.

Vader does better against twin lasers with lone wolf, but no matter what, you want to limit the number of shots he takes to none (ideally) or as close to that as you can get...

As soon as they buff Vader, they bring in something that can really shut him down. He's kind of a liability when facing TLTs. If you can't exploit the the range 1 hole quickly, he usually doesn't last long. Against a K-wing you just have to pray. Usually is still a good idea to get into range 1 as surviving 1 attack is generally easier. Also, you'll do more damage to them then they are likely to do to you. I've kind of stopped running Vader due to the **** TLT menace.

So what I am hearing is that Vader had a good run from after the fix to when the TLTs came out. Same would go for Juno/Colzet too I assume, unless Colzet is cheap enough to still be a valid choice? Are the Advanced once more a friendly-only ships?

It squares up with my experience - Vader is good to go against Poe for example, where I have gotten many solid performances from him but other ships he struggles against now... If so, what else should I consider? Will Firespray do the work? I hate for this to turn into "What Imperial ships do I take against TLTs?" type of a discussion but I will take any insight that you might provide.

Vader's not as afraid of TLT carriers as you guys make him out to be. He's more vulnerable than his interceptor flying counterpart, but if you fly him judiciously, he can hold his own against a pair of TLT Y-Wings just fine. Only one of them should ever be getting to shoot at him, at a time.

He just can't fly headlong into Quad TLTs, is all. That's where the rest of your list comes in.

Vader's Crack Addiction:

Vader - VI - x1 - ATC - EU

Howlrunner - Juke

Black Squadron Pilot - Crackshot x3

Total: 99

Big fan of this list (your build is 100 pts. It's 99 if you use Crackshot on Howlrunner, which I prefer. Both are nice though.). Vader and Howlrunner both demand to be dealt with. Bring 'em in from different angles and in addition to your great alpha strike, punish your opponent for the one he didn't deal with. If only I were better at flying swarms!

Do you guys think that having more green dice is a better bet versus more red dice in a list when going against the TLTs? How about basic Tie Advanced ships with AC that would always generate two hits? This is a poor-man's (Imperial-man's) version of TLT list, minus the stress generating potential. That frees the ships to always take alternate actions too...

Do you guys think that having more green dice is a better bet versus more red dice in a list when going against the TLTs? How about basic Tie Advanced ships with AC that would always generate two hits? This is a poor-man's (Imperial-man's) version of TLT list, minus the stress generating potential. That frees the ships to always take alternate actions too...

Well, a tempest w/ Accuracy Corrector is not bad against low agility targets (and in fact is quite good against twin laser turrets, because you take evade as your action each turn, and its actually not easy for the twin lasers to damage it). Unfortunately, Omega squad pilot w/ Juke + Comm relay is the same price as accuracy corrector advanced and is just plain better on so many levels...

I "did" run swarm before so perhaps Vader+TIEs will be my new thing to try this weekend... Let me throw some draft-grade list together to figure it out....

I've just hung up my Vader Miniswarm for a while but not because of TLT's. The list is usually able to remove a typical TLT carrier before it can fire. Get the initial approach right and you should only have 1 or 2 able to fire at Vader and he is well able to withstand this, though he will tend to get dinged up a bit unless they decide to take out Howlrunner (which is often a good idea for them).

After the initial approach, Vader can effortlessly stay at range one.

If it's a 4 Y build, chances are after 2-3 turns of shooting they only have 2 Y's left vs A bruised Vader and a couple TIE's or if they went after Vader successfully you have 3-4 TIE's left. Either way it tends to go ok in my experience.

kopmcginty - When you are saying Miniswarm do you mean mostly/exclusively TIEs or FOs? Or perhaps a mix?

Originals for me. My preference was Howl with Juke, 2 black with Crackshot and naked Wampa.

Hmmm.... For now I have this for your review as my proposed list for tomorrow:

Vader+VI+Engine+X1+ATC

Zeta Ace+Crack Shot

Omega Squadron Pilot+Juke+Comm Relay

Colzet+X1+FCS

I am not sure if the FOs are not too "loaded" but they seem interesting. Colzet seems cheap enough to be viable.

Hmmm.... For now I have this for your review as my proposed list for tomorrow:

Vader+VI+Engine+X1+ATC

Zeta Ace+Crack Shot

Omega Squadron Pilot+Juke+Comm Relay

Colzet+X1+FCS

I am not sure if the FOs are not too "loaded" but they seem interesting. Colzet seems cheap enough to be viable.

Yeah, but maybe this?

I should have all the cards for this I think. Let me see if I can get my head around the special rules there. Also, just learned that I should take delivery of the Imperial Assault Carrier today, so any cards that come in that should be an option too... There is at least 3 or 4 new TIE pilots in there, not sure of the upgrades though...

"Zeta Ace" (18)

Push the Limit (3)

Weapons Guidance (2)

It's worth noting that I only said Zeta Ace because you said Zeta Ace first, and I kinda have a love for that pilot. It's not often seen because it's not often the most strictly competitive choice (unless you're real pro at making those long barrel rolls count).

For the same 23 pts, you can run Colzet with Accuracy Corrector and get much more consistent results (though possibly less fun, with super long barrel rolls). Accuracy Corrector brings consistent output against low agility targets, and allows you to fly that ship aggresively with K-Turns that don't hinder your attacks and close combat fighting, secure that your action can be an evade.

If you want to make it more aggressive, this f/o Tie can be Zeta Leader with Predator for the same 23 points, and then can fire 3 double modified dice (I'm a huge sucker for double modified attacks) at PS7, thus making it a more dangerous (albeit squishier target). With that method, your list gains consistency in the sense that it has 4 dangerous, high priority targets and your opponent will be forced to choose which one to go after.

Sorry for rambling about such a variety of options when you're in a spot where you need to get your decisions made. Just sayin'.

"Frustratingly Sith

Vader - LW- x1 - ATC - EU - Proton Rockets

Omega Leader - VI - Comm Relay - Stealth Device

Omicron Group Pilot - Adv Sensors - Palp"

^This has been my tourney list for the past two events I've attended. TLTs aren't bad as long as you play them right -- token up if you can't close range or boost into range one to prevent their full effect.

Managed to kill a Stresshog with a Procket on a turn that would have almost definitely ended the game for me if it had gotten its turn.

Can NOT recommend Prockets ENOUGH. Vader wants to grab TLs early anyways, so it's usually child's play to set up a TL & Focus Procket. Only once has this resulted in less than 5 hits, and, even then, it has never failed to kill the ship I fired at in one go (of course, I wasn't firing at, say, a Decimator or anything. It does take some careful timing to make it stick).

I don't run into Poes as much as I expected to, but I'll never complain about the 11 PS.

Not sure about Prokets on Vader.

He will already have a free Crit (ATC) + 3 dice at range 1 for a total of 4 dice.

Prockets give him only 1 more attack dice once per game.

I've used proton rockets on Vader a number of times. Its not quite 'gauranteed' +1 damage for 3 points, but with focus + TL, the chances of 5 hits/crits are quite high. Its not a bad deal really, but I wouldn't make it a priority.

Not sure about Prokets on Vader.

He will already have a free Crit (ATC) + 3 dice at range 1 for a total of 4 dice.

Prockets give him only 1 more attack dice once per game.

The Procket shot is a 5 dice shot with TL, Focus, & Palpy behind it (Vader is almost always going to be shooting first). Range one Vader, otherwise, is three dice backed by focus & Palpy, and an added crit.

I have done both, on many occasions, and find that the ability to TL the Procket shot is absolutely clutch. It can easily help you save Palpy for later, and an extra die of attack isn't anything to sneeze at.

I'm not sure why you're sneezing at things in the first place, though, that's how you spread germs.

Prockets on Vader is often looked at by people as 1 extra red die, one time.

Simply not true. As ArbitraryNerd points out, the dice are more accurate through the Procket, with the TL. If you're at R1 with Vader, the odds or not rolling a blank (landing all 3 hits, plus your free crit) is a mere 42.2%. That means if you blank out on one die, you'll probably want to use Palpatine to fix it. Meanwhile, if you have TL and Focus at R1 with Prockets, your odds of landing non-blanks after the re-roll with all all five dice is a robust 72.4%. Your odds of nailing it with ever red die go up by 30%, thus increasing your chance of saving Palp for another die modification. So now we're up to 1.3 extra die, as opposed to just one.

Now imagine any scenario where Vader has to boost or roll to get into R1. If he uses his movement action then target lock to turn on his computer, we're at 2.5 hits on average (one being your auto crit) with no focus or emperor mods. Same thing with the procket, but instead you're at 3.75 hits with 5 dice and the focus token, but no TL.

There are also instances where in order to get your good R1 shot at a target, you'd have to pull the TL off another target, which essentially costs you two actions, since you'll have to put the TL back on the living/fleeing target at another time. Rather than that, you can simply get a focus token and leave your TL where it is.

I'm not saying that Prockets on Vader is the best 3 points you'll ever spend, but I do think that it's better than people give it credit for, for a myriad of reasons.