Hello guys !

So, as I'm currently prepping for the Store Champs and I haven't ran a list without squadrons in a looooooong time ! I'm toying with the idea of having an Imperial full ship list but I was wondering if you guys still found that viable with all the Rhymerballs and the Firesprays.

The doctrine behind the list was to have 1 ISD 2, 2 VSD 2s, all geared for maximum range and ship damage (enhanced armaments), as well as tank on the ISD 2. Obviously, Repair Commands would be very much needed.

My reasoning was : I don't want to half ass anti-squadron, so might as well not have it at all and captalize on the strengths of the anti-ship even more. But I wanted to have your take on that. Is not having any way to deal with squadrons but tanking it shooting myself in the foot, or can it work ?

All in all, I'm not opposed to have a small but Elite fighter force banking on passive damage (Fel + Mithel) led by Chiraneau on a Glad 1 or 2 with Flight Controllers if that feels really necessary.

Viable? Probably. It is, however, extremely risky and not even close to dominant like in wave 1. Bomber wings are very potent now and have some absurd range with Boosted Comms.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/202574-400-4-ship-rebs-it-was-crazy/

A minimal fighter force is better than none, in my opinion. Rebel players often get away with four A-Wings - their speed and Counter ability allow them to hold up more squadrons than they cost. Not sure what the equivalent for Imperials is (Interceptors have only one less hull than A-Wings, but it's a significant difference).

Without fighters, you're giving your opponent free shots from their squadrons. Rhymerball and Fireball combos can eat through even the toughest ship within a couple of rounds - if you can't stop them firing, you're in for a hard time.

It could work but you're relying on dodging the dedicated bomber fleets. Engineer all you want, but a serious Rhymer ball or Rebel bomber blob will chew through capital ships far faster than you can repair, and flak alone is insufficient to save you.

Even just running 8 TIE Fighter squadrons (a mere 64 points) has often been sufficient for me. It won't necessarily wipe the floor with enemy bombers but it will definitely get punches in and needs to be taken seriously. When you're up against someone running squadron-light, then they become little blue dice minefields.

Thanks for the feedback guys ! It's a risky proposition indeed, my logic was to try and kill more points in ships that they can kill points in mine.

The list idea so far :

ISD 2 - Vader, Avenger, Needa, Quad Lasers, Advanced Projectors (to actually defend against squadrons than to defend against ships), Needa, Enhanced Armaments

VSD 2 - Intel Officer, Enhanced Armament, Phylon Q7

VSD 2 - Intel Officer, Enhanced Armament

394 points (might fit another Phylon on the other Victory, I wanted a decent initiative bid)

Objectives : Advanced Gunnery (to further damage the ships, actually might be putting it on one of the VSDs) or Most Wanted (to pick the easiest ship to kill), Fleet Ambush (because all ships must be deployed before the squadrons, and I have none, so I'm losing less activation advantage), Minefields (to bunch ships up).

Thanks for the feedback guys ! It's a risky proposition indeed, my logic was to try and kill more points in ships that they can kill points in mine.

That kind of approach worked really well in wave one (see: the Gencon special) but at 400 points it's more difficult to table people, and so an unchallenged bomber wing going nuts on you will usually even the score and then some.

For what it's worth I haven't lost ISDs often in wave two but the majority of the time they've been destroyed it's been due to bombers (big capital ships just do not have great defenses against numerous small sources of damage that will often travel with you due to your huge footprint overlapping them consistently, where they keep getting moved to the front). I've since learned my lesson the hard way and I bring a minimum of 50 points of fighters with me if I'm not going for bombers. You just can't afford not to nowadays (which is a good thing, in my opinion).

Now I ahve a moment to add some thoughts to my earlier quick-link...

I think full-ships are viable to win. But I also clarify that to say that I doubt they'll win well.

You are virtually accepting that, whatever the enemy bombers decide to deal with, they will deal with.

There's nothing you can do about that.

Which means your margins of victory are going to be somewhat decreased overall, because you need to accept acceptable losses.

With that in mind... If you're going to be all-Ship... Then I don't think 3 Activations is enough. 3 Activations on the Imperial Side gets you an ISD and 2 Victories already, with a bomber wing for backup. The Victories might be near-naked, but that ISD can be tricked out...

I feel you are better off playing for the activation advantage. If you can do that, maybe I-V-V-V with some tools, you are going to feel a lot more comfortable... 3-ships is a nice compromise position for most people to fall into, and you're going to want to be able to dance activations around them.

So if you are going to do that, you are better off additionally playing a Bid to be Player One, with the thought that, 75% of the time, your 4 ship list will be able to First/Last around a 3-Ship list. That is useful.

With that in mind, your own objectives become second-thoughts-and-second-rates... Be ready to play your opponent's choices.

What is half assing anti squadron in terms of points? 32-48 points? As Imp you might be able to squeeze in a 4-5 Ties, a Raider or make a ship larger, more upgrades. I think all of the above are bad against a competent player with a Fireball. I have never lost to an all ship list with my Fireball from Vader to Akbar.

The minimum Tie screen I aim for is 5 Ties and Howlrunner. This is my ship list composition. I consider this a somewhat dangerous distraction force.

BUT. Two things give me pause for thought.

One. I played a really unique Gladiator II at Store Champ a few days ago.

Glad II, Demolisher, Ruthless Strategist, APT. He opened with 3 squadrons thrown into me, two Blue point Defense Dice, Ruthless Strat triggers. Then Demolisher move + double Blue Point Defence + Ruthless again! It was savage. Demolisher on a Glad II reliably throws out two arcs of two blue dice. He gives up Ordnance Expert but I don't consider that terrible if you know you are playing Squadrons. I'm actually trying to make it work in a Vader list to add dice manipulation for APT against ships. I considered that that Demolisher was threatening enough my squadrons that I myself would have no issues running it.

I can't say it's impossible to all ship, Point Defence is severely underplayed from most people, but I just don't know (I have never tried but I have also never seen it work). But if you can kill a Fireball that's around 130 points to pick up. It becomes worth engaging with multiple ships.

I think a Glad II/Demolisher for double arc point defense, Raider I/Instigator/Ordanance Experts and or Raider I/Impetuous with Tarkin or Motti for engeering would be the place to start, for Imps at least.

Two.

The most successful all ships fly in certain ways. Blitzkrieg. Ignore the squadrons and kill all the ships. Fast speed and get into close range with the carrier and pressure it. Move the squadron zone of control back to their side of the board. This is where I have been pressured the hardest. If you amble molasses like Rhymer will ******* destroy you (to put it bluntly)

Hmmm I've run an ISD, Glad, Glad, Glad with minimal squadrons ... it did ok (generally middle of the pack), tho my major problem was ... well squadrons.

I look at 70-90pt worth of squadrons as a spread out capital ship. When backed up with a couple of two blue die AA Glads, that's some interesting fun and if paired with an ISD, you've got some serious power to go with it.

If you're having fun you can do no wrong!

The risk with a Vic is that with a max speed of 2, and its predictable yaw value, your opponent will have a pretty good idea whereabouts it will be. If your opponent has Rhymer, it's not hard to camp that general spot (Rhymer's threat range is significant), and get damage in for a round or two, even without a squadron command. The smaller ships--and even the ISD to a certain extent--have the possibility of being more unpredictable in their approach, and have the speed to at least attempt a get-away if it comes to that. An all-ship list with an ISD, Demolisher, and a couple of Raiders would be better equipped to work around a bomber ball, I think.

I think Dras's suggestion about activation advantage is the biggest thing. Going first is great on its own, but going last and first can be the real game-changer (especially if you don't have Demolisher). Triple Vics and an ISD with Motti is an insane amount of hull to overcome (or Vader, for boosted long-to-mid-range damage), especially if you can restrict your command dials to navs and repairs. An ISD, two VSDs, and Demolisher is probably the best of both worlds if you can make it fit. Any list with Demolisher is a dangerous list to give last-first activations to.

I think Dras's suggestion about activation advantage is the biggest thing.

If you are running no Squadrons as an Imperial, you need, absolutely need more ships than your opponents.

I say this because you have to take his ships out faster than yours can be nibbled to death, Imp II +Screed+GunneryTeam+ECM+SW-7IonBatteries+X-17's, Glad I+EngineTech+OrdnanceExperts+ACM+Demolisher, +3x raider with nothing, total 388pts, for a virtual guarantee of player one, it is imperative you are player one, so you can act last with either the Imp or the Glad, then first next round, or you do the Clontroper5 build.

But you can't have slow ships, and you cannot have ships that are wasting activations because the opponent has more ships than you and they are dancing around outside your optimum arcs. that build I just posted, you keep the raiders out of the way behind the Imp to chew up any squadrons/andor/ finish off anything that limps past the Imp II, and to allow you to keep maximum activations through out the 6 rounds, they are there to facilitate the ImpII and Glad I rampaging, do not risk them.

Imperials can bring an unholy amount of fire power to bear, and that list is one that will allow you to kill a ship or two every round from the 2nd turn onwards.

Yeah, you should absolutely not be going with only 3 activations and no squadrons. Find a way to scrounge up points for a Demolisher Gladiator. The enhanced armaments on all three ships should go. I would recommend ECM over Advanced Projectors. Quad lasers are pointless without fighters to actually finish off bombers. For the love of God man, get a gunnery team on thatt ISD2. I'm also not a huge fan of Vader or VSD2s. Here's what I would go for based on what you've put forward so far:

+++ Armada Imperial Experiment (391pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (391pts) ++

+ Gladiator Star Destroyer (71pts) +

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (71pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes (5pts), •Demolisher (10pts)]

+ Imperial Star Destroyer (160pts) +

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (160pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), •Admiral Screed (26pts)]

+ Victory Star Destroyer (160pts) +

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (80pts) [Assault Concussion Missiles (7pts)]

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (80pts) [Assault Concussion Missiles (7pts)]

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Opening Salvo]

Defense Objective [Fleet Ambush]

Navigation Objective [Dangerous Territory]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

If you don't have APTs, ACMs will do just fine on Demolisher. The high bid is meant to ensure you have both first player and the activation advantage. That will be critical to surviving without squadrons.

Another plus for a squadron presence is that it gives you more drops in deployment. With no fighters, you'll have all of your ships on the table when your opponent will likely only have one down - given the low maneuverability of your Vics, this might be significant.

I've had success with roughly 70pts worth of Imperial squadrons (six fighters including Howlrunner, Soontir, 2 x ties and 2 x interceptors) holding up 100-130 pts worth of opposing squadrons - they might not win, but their mobility and offensive/counter dice ensures they earn their cost.

In my FLGS store champ, I ran ISD-1, 2 X GSDs and a VSD-1 with a bare minimum of 4 TIE fighters. The activation advantage is incredibly helpful, and the token force of TIEs was just enough to be annoying to a Rhymerball (and almost sink my opponent's Demolisher in one game with a few pings of damage on open shield zones).

I think with minimum fighters I used them defensively - spread out to mitigate Jan/Dengar and give my ships the breathing space to table the enemy fleet.

If you don't mind bare bones I just worked out a ship only Imp list that I wouldn't like to face

Commander: Admiral Motti

Flagship: VSD-2 (85pts) > Motti (24pts) = 109pts

Ship 1: Glad2 (62pts) > Demolisher (10pts) + Ordnance experts (4pts) + Assault proton torps (5pts) = 81pts

Ship 2: Glad2 (62pts) = 62pts

Ship 3: VSD-1 (73pts) = 73pts

Ship 4: VSD-1 (73pts) = 73pts

Points: 398/400

This is a LOT of hull and activations

Thanks for the feedback guys ! It's a risky proposition indeed, my logic was to try and kill more points in ships that they can kill points in mine.

The list idea so far :

ISD 2 - Vader, Avenger, Needa, Quad Lasers, Advanced Projectors (to actually defend against squadrons than to defend against ships), Needa, Enhanced Armaments

VSD 2 - Intel Officer, Enhanced Armament, Phylon Q7

VSD 2 - Intel Officer, Enhanced Armament

394 points (might fit another Phylon on the other Victory, I wanted a decent initiative bid)

Objectives : Advanced Gunnery (to further damage the ships, actually might be putting it on one of the VSDs) or Most Wanted (to pick the easiest ship to kill), Fleet Ambush (because all ships must be deployed before the squadrons, and I have none, so I'm losing less activation advantage), Minefields (to bunch ships up).

Specific to the list - I you are taking advanced projects then what is Needa doing? Subbing out the contain? You would want the second redirect if expecting to use it against squadrons.

I would also suggest no VSDs. As much as I love my VSDs, I have seen them picked apart by squadrons after my own fighters are lost too often to think this will end well. VSDs just aren't going to be able to escape.

More generally, I think all ship is still valid. I wouldn't do it myself as I feel squadrons are too much a part of the game to leave out, but I think there is more than enough room for player skill to be the deciding factor rather than straight composition.

For zero squadrons, I would want a list that manoeuvres and fights hard. VSDs out, probably not raiders either expect if played very defensively. ISDs and gladiators, with at least 4 ships and a bid (I can make up an ozzel, two ISD1, two glad list with the required upgrades and a 9 point bid without much thought). Make activation dominance work in your favour so you can get in and trash their ships and limit any one ships exposure.

Thanks for the comments guys, I definitely appreciate it and see insights of great value !

I agree that initiative and a high count of ship activations would work well for a list with Gladiators (and maybe Raiders). Smaller ships like that, especially with such a short range definitely need that in order to punch above their weight ! The idea of a IVV list built with the longest range possible was to aim for board control on a large area : if you want to avoid the ISD, you're going to run into the 2 VSDs fire arcs and vice versa. It's still theorycrafting at this point so your insights are valuable

By deploying the ISD at a 45° angle at speed 2 in the center of the map (if going first) I give the opponent 2 choices : deploying towards where the ISD is headed or deploying the other way. In the first case, I can deploy one or 2 VSDs on the side where the opponent is headed, and in the other case, I can deploy them on the other side of the ISD. Usiing Nav Commands and tokens Turns 1-2 to angle so that there is no escape (the 45° of the ISD wasn't innocent, because in one turn of speed 2 he can turn on the other side, even more with a Nav Command).

I managed to set a game up for tonight so I can try this out, I'll report on the findings

@Ophion : Good points about Needa ! The idea I had was to be a little more flexible in the tank depending on what I face. If I face Bombers, I won't use him (and lose 2 points) because I'll need both Redirects and Contains. against XI7 spam, I can switch a Redirect. Against TRC spam, I can switch the contain and effectively have another Brace

By deploying the ISD at a 45° angle at speed 2 in the center of the map (if going first) I give the opponent 2 choices : deploying towards where the ISD is headed or deploying the other way. In the first case, I can deploy one or 2 VSDs on the side where the opponent is headed, and in the other case, I can deploy them on the other side of the ISD. Usiing Nav Commands and tokens Turns 1-2 to angle so that there is no escape (the 45° of the ISD wasn't innocent, because in one turn of speed 2 he can turn on the other side, even more with a Nav Command).

I think an issue with this is that you only have 3 deployments. Most 3 ships lists will have at least a token fighter force, which would give them 4 or 5 deployments, which will let them delay placing their ships. If you were to have 4 TIE Fighters, you could at least match that, but without a fighter escort at all, I think your deployment may get countered fairly readily.

Drive large ship into squadrons. Engine tech.

Squadron no longer have any formation

Next round move away.

Drive large ship into squadrons.

Opponent places squadrons at the front of the ship.

Engine tech.

Squadrons placed again at the front of the ship.

Fixed that for you.

If they only have three squadrons then i really wouldnt worry about them

The biggest issue I've found is the Firespray/Aggressor. Moving and shooting at speed 3 means they can keep up with even super fast ships. I always have at least two or three squadrons just to tie up some of them long enough for me to spread out and make it hard for my opponent to focus on any one ship. And yes, Dengar is a pain, but he also can't be in two places at once, so if you're careful with how you place your squadrons you can still tie some of the nasty stuff up.