Fat Han didn't run Assault Missiles, because that would force him to point at the swarm and that usualy means a bad position, since it is fundamental for him to kite it.

Fat Han never worried about swarms because when fat Han took over the meta 6-7 tie swarms already died out.

The problem with z95 and other swarms in the current meta is there are certain ships that almost don't care about 2 atk ships anymore. You better hope that ordinance kills that ship or ships like soontir or even brobots will shred an entire swarm by itself.

I expect to see more Ordinance now however lrs or GC is not meta changing. Look toward tractor beams for meta changing.

Chimps/LRS won't be breaking any games. Been using both since spoiler day.

The are incredibly good at making the hardest hitting weapons in the game, BUT on the right ships in the right context and ordnance is still more difficult to use than any other weapon. As it should be.

Most worthwhile ordnance has the same doughnut hole as TLTs all still require setup most 'spammable' carriers lack a key component to being busted etc etc. Aces ain't going anywhere, especially dudes like OL soontir or regen aces. Fat ships otoh have it a little rougher.

IMO ordnance will be 'a thing' but not much different than now, maybe barring a few new builds.

Oh also a hilarious counter palp aces can I use against blount swarms assuming those consume the meta is taking kagi to negate the swarm's ability to combo on an ace. Yeah they delete the shuttle but I'll take 6z's vs. Vader and soontir most days especially if the blount tracer is gone.

There's a small chance kagi won't work based on how fcs works but we will have to see if this is even a necessary evolution.

Most worthwhile ordnance has the same doughnut hole as TLTs all still require setup most 'spammable' carriers lack a key component to being busted etc etc. Aces ain't going anywhere, especially dudes like OL soontir or regen aces. Fat ships otoh have it a little rougher.

IMO ordnance will be 'a thing' but not much different than now, maybe barring a few new builds.

That's why I love my Scimitar Squadron Tie Bomber with Seismic Charges. If you get someone in at close range (and live), it can be pretty hard to avoid dropping Seismic Charges. Even if you know it's coming, it can be hard. If they are able to avoid it, it can put an Ace out of action for a couple of crucial turns. Bumping is a solid strategy for close range Bombers.

I have not been practicing with LRS yet, but I think that will make my Flying Scimitars Squad brutal. I've found Tie Bombers to be a lot more mobile than one expects. It's got the 1 straight and banks as well as the 5 K-turn. The only weakness is the 2 turn red and no 1 hard turn. Throw in a Barrel Roll and you will be able to keep a lot of ships in front of you. I don't care if Soontir Fel tries going wide on your list, a 1 bank and BR will keep him in arc. It only takes 2 Homing Missiles to really take him down, so the other two Bombers can focus on the rest of the list. Deployment can help here. I like rocks in the middle and it makes me happy when super ace goes to one side. I just head that direction and move in for a quick kill. It does take practice to be able to play vs. Soontir and such well.

4 x TLT's are bad for Flying Scimitars if they fire first.

I could see that working well although I haven't tried it en masse. Scimitars are one of the ships that get a fairly substantial boost from LRS although most ships really won't. One of the reasons is actually the 5k. Such an underrated power move.

Oh also a hilarious counter palp aces can I use against blount swarms assuming those consume the meta is taking kagi to negate the swarm's ability to combo on an ace. Yeah they delete the shuttle but I'll take 6z's vs. Vader and soontir most days especially if the blount tracer is gone.

There's a small chance kagi won't work based on how fcs works but we will have to see if this is even a necessary evolution.

Oh also a hilarious counter palp aces can I use against blount swarms assuming those consume the meta is taking kagi to negate the swarm's ability to combo on an ace. Yeah they delete the shuttle but I'll take 6z's vs. Vader and soontir most days especially if the blount tracer is gone.

There's a small chance kagi won't work based on how fcs works but we will have to see if this is even a necessary evolution.

Kagi won't work. The thread tracers don't need a target lock to fire, so you can shoot anyone with them even when kagi is around, and then it lets everyone else acquire a target lock on the defender specifically, just like fcs.

On one hand, good. Please die in a hole palp aces players.

On the other hand, yet another loophole to ignore Captain Kagi's ability I'M PAYING 27 POINTS FOR A LAMBDA STOP IGNORING IT. *leans across table and grabs opponent's shirt collar*

My hope is that the prevailing opinion here is right: ordnance will introduce some unprecedented builds, and it will push people to find strategies for avoiding or blunting the alpha strike, but it won't remove a lot from the metagame.

Broadly, there are two approaches: a high-PS ace loaded up with ordnance, or generic spam. Both strategies have risks: the ace is expensive even before the ordnance, and Guidance Chips can't be taken at the same time as Engine Upgrade. The generics typically have to have a way to get a target lock on distant, higher-PS ships, which means Long-Range Sensors (which is also mutually exclusive with Chips) or giving up an attack to use S-Thread Tracers. Oh, and the Tracers have to hit, which isn't a problem against a Decimator, but could present a problem even against something like Fat Han.

And woe betide the alpha-strike list that loses the ship with Tracers before it attacks. That exerts an upward pressure on the PS of your Tracers ship, which means now you have an ace that can't do damage with its attack, which isn't very cost-efficient... there's going to be a lot to shake out before the metagame settles down again, but once it does I think you'll see the Blount swarm with concussion missiles and you'll see fairly common splashes of ordnance in otherwise familiar lists.

It's not a bad list. It's just not an all-consuming annihilation. It's probably going to be competitive like any number of other lists.

And that's what excites me about Chimps and LRS. I think they're good enough to make ordnance lists A Thing, but their requirements / opportunity cost is big enough that you kind of have to have a dedicated ordnance carrier to run them, which is a balancing factor in and of itself. If I end the alpha strike phase with two of my three aces left against, say, 5 Z-95s two of which have missiles unfired... that's a game, you know?

Yup. Ordnance is (back) in contention, which I'm looking forward to.

I think my favourite ordnance package is going to be N'Dru with Lone Wolf, Cluster Missiles, Glitterstim and Guidance Chips. 25 points of 'stay out of range of me or I will throw 8 heavily modified dice at your face'. It packs a LOT of punch for 25 points and with Lone Wolf and N'Dru's ability is a surprisingly potent closer if it's the last ship left. I very nearly took down a half-health brobot with it last week.

My favorite pilot! One shoted Darth, a K-wing, Whisperer and got 7 hits on the emperor in a shuttle. His lore continues and now he will get better.

Broadly, there are two approaches: a high-PS ace loaded up with ordnance, or generic spam. Both strategies have risks: the ace is expensive even before the ordnance, and Guidance Chips can't be taken at the same time as Engine Upgrade. The generics typically have to have a way to get a target lock on distant, higher-PS ships, which means Long-Range Sensors (which is also mutually exclusive with Chips) or giving up an attack to use S-Thread Tracers. Oh, and the Tracers have to hit, which isn't a problem against a Decimator, but could present a problem even against something like Fat Han.

I do see it possible to have a mid-PS ordnance pilot. A lot depends on how the meta changes. It is possible that there is a return to a mid-PS meta. Or maybe.....mid-PS won't be horrible in the meta. You will always have people who use Soontir, Vader, and Corran. You will always have TLT's and swarms. Mid PS could make a comeback. Ordnance is not a bad option on a number of pilots. You fire before TLT's and other such ships, but after some of the enemy aces have stripped their tokens down.

Graz the Hunter w/ Glitterstim, Concussion Missile, and GC might not be a bad option for the front of your anvil while you then have a flanker moving up. Get up in range...maybe the only target vs. TLT's or such...and pop Glitterstim. You can then fire your Concussion Missiles and do a lot of damage. It's possible.

Guidance chimps and LRS really work. The combination of munitions fixes (incl. extra munitions) has just come into its own.

Also, the list-building combinations are INSANE. Even flechettes with chimps look decent. Loving all of this.

I've liked Flechette Torps for a while. I used one on Xizor with FCS, so usually got a Focus in on that, too. Was surprised how much damage that can cause when I was mainly going for stress.

a lot more banannas

I think Ordnancewing might scare off a lot of Acewing players just like the Phantom nerf and TLT/half points for large ships rule did.

Those rules/TLT didn't do much in reality, but now that your top meta ship will no longer autowin you games people will drop them and jump on the ordnance bandwagon. Phantoms post-nerf are still very deadly, and fat turrets are still good, hell Vader Gunner Predator RAC's can kill aces in like 2 shots. But look how often you see them right now, a moderate amount but not in every squad.

Acewing won't go away, but I suspect your typical Phantom Soontir named TIE Fighter squad will be represented about as much as Fat Turretwing squads are now. You'll see them a decent amount and they'll still be able to do well, just with less people playing them.

I don't know if it will scare away Aces so fast. I think it will take some practice for people to get good with ordnance. It still requires skill, especially vs. the aces. Until people get good with ordnance lists, it won't scare anyone away.

Mid PS ships are much better than given credit for. They're my bread and butter they just require a bit more careful planning. Barring a few freakishly good high ps ships or those that literally have nothing better to do than vet instincts I think mid ps is solid and getting a boost recently.

I don't know if it will scare away Aces so fast. I think it will take some practice for people to get good with ordnance. It still requires skill, especially vs. the aces. Until people get good with ordnance lists, it won't scare anyone away.

Ya absolutely not.

How about this:

4 Daggers with Flechettes and GCs for 100 points

Against lower PS stuff, you Target Lock and use the massed torp volley (same damage as primary, but no range 3 bonus) with autocrit to remove something from the board. Against higher PS stuff, you wait and grab a TL when it's convenient and stress those aces when you get a shot.

If you want to mix it up you could do better equipped Bs, doubling as jousting and control ships. A couple Daggers with FCS, 2 Flechettes, and GCs is 58 points, enough for a pretty solid ace. The Daggers will beat up generics and stress out aces. There's a lot of flexibility on price there, as well.

Dammit, I don't know how much B-wings cost, apparently. You can't do 4 Daggers with Flechettes. You could do 2 Daggers and 2 Blues, or have only 2 Daggers with torps, though.

Each Dagger is 24 points base.

I was think quad PS 2 Kirahxz, Quad Homing Missiles, quad Chips. If you do to Concussions you get 4 extra points to play around with.

Broadly, there are two approaches: a high-PS ace loaded up with ordnance, or generic spam...

I do see it possible to have a mid-PS ordnance pilot.

Sure! But once you stack 4-5 points of ordnance on a mid-PS pilot, I see that as more of a pocket ace. I can see Nera really coming into the metagame, for instance, but you can easily spend 35 points on her:

That's Miranda + TLT, or 3 points shy of Poe + VI + Artoo, or the base cost for Corran. So here Nera has to do the work of a pocket ace: she has to add fire support to an ace, or pinch-hit for it in a game where the ace dies early. Drea Renthal is the same or a little cheaper, and your Graz build is a little cheaper than that, but I think a lot of mid-PS with ordnance is going to fall in that 30-35 range.

I'm not saying Nera or others can't do it, and in fact I have a Nera/Miranda/Stressbot list queued up for when Wave 8 hits. But in cost and role, I think mid-PS ships with ordnance are going to function more like aces than anything else--with the early damage spike and implied area control making up for any deficits when compared to a "real" ace.

A lot depends on how the meta changes. It is possible that there is a return to a mid-PS meta. Or maybe.....mid-PS won't be horrible in the meta. You will always have people who use Soontir, Vader, and Corran. You will always have TLT's and swarms. Mid PS could make a comeback. Ordnance is not a bad option on a number of pilots. You fire before TLT's and other such ships, but after some of the enemy aces have stripped their tokens down.

Yeah, I think ordnance is a good counter to TLTs even now (8 points' worth of PTs make Stressbot look pretty flimsy). Chips will make it even better against the spammable generic Golds and Thugs that occupy so much metagame space right now, while giving it a decent shot of cracking even something like Whisper or Soontir. And I'm actually okay with that, as long as it doesn't make aces look so unreliable that it ends up pushing them out of the meta entirely.

(EDIT: s/b Crack Shot instead of Deadeye on the Nera build.)

Sure! But once you stack 4-5 points of ordnance on a mid-PS pilot, I see that as more of a pocket ace. I can see Nera really coming into the metagame, for instance, but you can easily spend 35 points on her:

Nera Dantels (26)

Deadeye (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Extra Munitions (2)

Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 35

That's Miranda + TLT, or 3 points shy of Poe + VI + Artoo, or the base cost for Corran. So here Nera has to do the work of a pocket ace: she has to add fire support to an ace, or pinch-hit for it in a game where the ace dies early. Drea Renthal is the same or a little cheaper, and your Graz build is a little cheaper than that, but I think a lot of mid-PS with ordnance is going to fall in that 30-35 range.

There is a local guy that has run Nera w/ Marksman, EM, and Proton Torps along with Horton TLT and Dutch TLT. It's pretty brutal as Dutch gives Nera the TL. This is all before GC, even. Nera can put the hurt on people with the Torpedoes, but loses a lot of punch after they are down. Still a B-wing, though. Meanwhile, the TLT's are stripping tokens and doing damage. Horton can strip tokens and then Nera lands a Torp on. It's ugly.

You know, I just realized that Imperial Kath can double stress with GC and Flechette Torpedoes. The GC turns one die result into a crit and the torps put a further one on.

How about this:

4 Daggers with Flechettes and GCs for 100 points

Against lower PS stuff, you Target Lock and use the massed torp volley (same damage as primary, but no range 3 bonus) with autocrit to remove something from the board. Against higher PS stuff, you wait and grab a TL when it's convenient and stress those aces when you get a shot.

If you want to mix it up you could do better equipped Bs, doubling as jousting and control ships. A couple Daggers with FCS, 2 Flechettes, and GCs is 58 points, enough for a pretty solid ace. The Daggers will beat up generics and stress out aces. There's a lot of flexibility on price there, as well.

Dammit, I don't know how much B-wings cost, apparently. You can't do 4 Daggers with Flechettes. You could do 2 Daggers and 2 Blues, or have only 2 Daggers with torps, though.

I dig it. Maybe a tactician or two somewhere.

Lately I've been tinkering with something like this:

Ello- juke, r5p9, ia, comms relay, flechettes

nera- dead eye, flechettes, flechettes, title- jan ors

gold- r3a2, TLT

Seems like it has some really scary potential although I haven't dialed it in yet.

Deadeye torpedoe carriers and possibly Jendon titled shuttle backed bombers can eliminate the fear of no TL for low PS. I also think systems officers might be the droids we're looking for on the TL front.

I think the aces ordinance is where we are headed. It's real predator, fat Han, is going to be ran out on Z swarm fears.

I don't believe a lot of people have experienced dead ace or stressbot or IG in one exchange, least of all in a tourney. It's still my conviction that there are many naysayers that can't imagine what an alpha strike does.

I think the aces ordinance is where we are headed. It's real predator, fat Han, is going to be ran out on Z swarm fears.

I don't believe a lot of people have experienced dead ace or stressbot or IG in one exchange, least of all in a tourney. It's still my conviction that there are many naysayers that can't imagine what an alpha strike does.

Your right. The only major thing keeping ordnance in check now is the tradeoff of other actions and upgrades in exchange for the accuracy, although even these have been largely mitigated in some instances as well.