Hi guys, I have searched the forum and there are some great threads about getting into Descent, and there are a lot of threads over on the IA forums about switching from Descent to IA, but I haven't found a lot of info about the reverse.

I have been playing IA for a few months now and love it, I've been picking up x-pacs, doing solo play throughs, group campaigns, skirmishes, variant play throughs etc.. can't get enough of it.

I have had lots of people say that IA is Descent with a Star Wars theme, so it seems pretty obvious that if a person likes IA they will really like Descent.

The thing I hate about IA is that it can really snowball fast, meaning if one side takes a few wins the campaign can tilt. They try to fix this with stacking the deck, but the side missions are generally 'neutral' meaning that the snowball rolls through those as well, which means more rewards making it harder to come back. I have had a campaign where I was getting pummeled and had a really hard time to win even a few, and I've had campaigns where I just dominated and had to hold back to make it more fun for the other side.

If I try to hold back though and DM it, the challenge is lost bye the final mission and it is an easy win. Finding that balance has been really tough and as such I find that my players are either A) Bored because it is to easy or B) Upset and frustrated because it is to hard. So this could very well be on me, but I was just curious, is Descent the same way?

Are there better balancing mechanics? Is it more of a DM mode than say the Imperial in Assault? Many claim the Imp should not be a DM but in fact another player. If the Rebels basically don't just run and gun and focus on the objectives they lose the game. This is how I understood Descent 1 was, how did they fix the "OMG OBJECTIVE RUSH OR GG" factor in Descent 2? Or did they?

Long post, I apologize. But basically I would really like to try out Descent as I am a SW fan but also a huge Fantasy fan. I am not overly enthused to invest the money though if it is a tilt fest like IA.

Thanks in advance!

Hi FrogTrigger,

One thing I recommend is to read this thread from another IA player who was interested in coming to Descent. You might find some interesting information there: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/200800-an-imperial-descending-how-to-and-what-to-buy/

Unfortunately, having played both IA and Descent, I feel that neither game addresses the problem of snow-balling. Generally in these games, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you win, you get more rewards. If you get more rewards, you are likely to win more, and the snowballing begins. If there is a discrepancy in player skill on each side, then this problems worsens.

This is further compounded on by the fact that the winner can pick the next quest in Descent, which means the winner can choose the quest that is most advantageous to their current situation, further increasing their chances of winning again.

In addition, rushing objectives is just as critical in Descent as it is in IA. The quests are carefully tuned such that it assumes both sides are doing their utmost to complete their tasks in the quickest way possible. This means there is very little room for error or dilly-dallying.

One example is "The Incident" quest in Shadows of Nerekhall. The heroes have to make almost 100% optimal movement of Celia in order to have enough time to visit all the research points and then escape before the walls cave-in. There is only a tiny bit of extra leeway here to make up for Overlord interference. This is required for it to be balanced, as if it gave more time than that for heroes to fight monsters/search/etc. then the map becomes too hero favored.

So, if you don't like the "OMG RUSH THE OBJECTIVE OR ITS GG" aspect of IA.. I'm afraid you won't find that it is much different in Descent. The time pressure is an important part of the game being competitive.

Having played mostly as the heroes in IA, I will say that I found the hidden information aspect of IA very frustrating. It is hard to plan out strategies with incomplete information, and this has resulted in what I feel is a cheap loss due to the fact that the Imperial player gains secret quest-based powers at certain times that the Rebel player has no way of factoring into their strategy.

There is no equivalent hidden Rebel information to make up for this, so it seems unfair. Thankfully Descent does *not* have this problem. All information about possible choices is public, even in quests where the Overlord gets to make a secret decision (e.g. Nerekhall influence effects). This is a much better way to handle secrets, in my opinion.

One thing you can do to help reduce snowballing is to allow the LOSER of the quest to pick the next one. I actually have experimented with this variant and I rather enjoy it. The degree this matters will vary from campaign to campaign, but in some this is a rather large help to the losing side (Shadow Rune is especially notorious for having some very overlord favored quests and some very hero favored ones).

As for side quests, I personally only like to use the Rumor quests from the Heroes and Monster collections. They have been structured such that if the heroes win the Act I portion they get no rewards other than denying the Overlord his reward. In addition, the reward for the Act II portion is fairly well balanced for both hero and overlord.

This is not at all true of the mini-campaign side quests, making them too hero-favored in my view. The heroes already get significant benefits from side quests due to the additional shopping step and search tokens, and then this is worsened by the lop-sided rewards (e.g. Compare the immense value of the Aurium Mail relic to the situational and inferior Valyndra's Gift. Its not even close)

I would also only play with side quests if you are playing with a plot deck, as it is important the Overlord get threat tokens as an additional reward for doing side quests to help with balance.

The thing is Descent is balanced around the implication that OL and hero-party is on the same skill level. If they are, I found that snowballing isn't a big problem. If the heroes lose early, they can go for a different skill progression that maybe initially a bit weaker, but extremely strong at the interlude (at which point in time they can swing the momentum). A focus on searching the searchtokens (like the crates in IA) usually mitigates the loss of the quest enough to not fall behind very much.

Also the fact that there is no secret information kind of ensures that you only lose because of suboptimal strategical or tactical choices and not because of some luck ambiguities (of course there are dice, but imo they are less swingy than in IA).

I think (just a speculation) that the "Rush Strategy" you are talking about does not happend so much in Descent as there are too many large (medium, huge and massive) monsters that help the Overlord to block passages and buy time, something IA does not have. If I recall correctly, the core set just have 3 large minis (the AT-ST, the machine-gun guy and the dog creature) sorry for not knowing the names. In addition, the Overlord have traps cards to really slow the heroes.

As for the snowballing effect, well, all the mentioned above covers the topic.

Well, you forget that IA has a rule for bypassing blocking figures, too.

So it doesn't matter how many figures you put in the way, as long as you have the MP to cover the move, you can just go right on running.

Thanks everyone for the responses, the recommended thread and everyone's suggestions have been a great help.

Another question though if I may, I am trying to figure out what I should buy to get into the game, I obviously will start with the core, but which Lieutenant packs do you need?

It seems the first 6 listed on any website replace a token from this game, is it like IA that all 6 of these villains can show up in any campaign? I read some where that you only use one Lieutenant per campaign? So technically you could just buy one off the bat and use that for the first run through, then try a new one each campaign that follows?

Charmy I noticed in the other thread you commented that it depends how hard you want to make it, could you rank them for me in order of difficulty? Ball parking obviously I understand it will depend on the experience of the group, ours being about medium experience with medium to high skill.

Edit: Ahh ok more digging, this thread answered my question

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/184262-suggestions-on-where-to-start/

It is like IA in that the tokens will appear through out the campaign, however you can only use one Plot deck per campaign run so all you can from buying the Lieutenant packs is the miniature replacing the token... why do tokens bother me so much though? Hah!

Tokens seem to bother a lot of people. For me, the miniatures are not what make Descent fun. It's probably blasphemy, but I don't think I'd mind if all the monsters and heroes were tokens, too. If you're willing to spend $8-12 for a mini, then go ahead and grab every LT pack. That's a little too costly for my budget, so I've found a subset of lieutenants (so far I have 6) who I really like their plot decks, or whose miniatures are really impressive (Valyndra, Mirklace, Skarn.) Maybe I'll get them all some day, but for now they just won't have any real effect on gameplay, so my dollar goes elsewhere.

The plot decks are certainly an interesting addition to gameplay- but the fact that only one can be used per campaign means that during any given set of quests, most of the plot decks go completely unused.

I see, in IA each Villain pack comes with a Agenda (Plot) Deck of 3 cards each, and you choose 6 for your campaign to combine.

To bad they didn't set it up that way, there would be more incentive to buy them all.

I see, in IA each Villain pack comes with a Agenda (Plot) Deck of 3 cards each, and you choose 6 for your campaign to combine.

To bad they didn't set it up that way, there would be more incentive to buy them all.

Yeah- in Descent the plot deck is more like an agent analogue of a hero class- each agent has a unique pool of cards that can be purchased over the course of the campaign, but the choice is made at the beginning and the pools don't overlap.

Please let me be clear that I really like the way the plot deck mechanic works- it just doesn't require having a whole slew to choose from, as you said (since Mirklace was released, I've only started 4 full-length campaigns- I still haven't had a chance even to use the smaller number of plot decks I do own.)

Certainly, that's better than the alternative of needing to re-use a plot deck due to lack of content, but it's just something to consider.

In Descent, the components of the Lieutenant Packs are the Plot Deck, the miniature and cardboard tokens call Threat (except for Raythen’s and Serena’s packs, which also have a Hero Sheet and a Hero mini in order to use them as heroes). The Lieutenant is substitute by something call Agent. Agents can be played in any campaign and are consider a normal monster (without attributes) and substitute some of the monster groups you can bring to the quests. However, Lieutenant packs bring different strategies, not only the deck and the mini. If you want to buy them there must be before three categories, IMO:

The miniature

If you want to use the miniature because of its looking, then choosing and using the plot deck is useless. For example, I bought Queen Ariad beacuse it's a BIG SPIDER! hahaha

The Plot Deck

Sometimes the mini isn’t everything, there are some plot decks that are worth buying. For example, Raythen’s plot deck is useful to counter in some way a hero class (the Treasure Hunter). In other cases, Valyndra’s plot deck rewards the use of large monsters, while Verminous rewards the use of small and weak monsters. Zachareth’s deck plays with the rules by hitting the heroes when they buy their stuff. Therefore, you can see that it is not necessarily to buy them for the mini.

The Agent

Well, the bosses. You want to play with them because of their utility. Well you need to think first of their cost (in order to play them you substitute your monsters) and their weakness (once they are killed, you need to earn them again). So, there are Agent that focus on combat: Queen Ariad (highest defense in the game), Gargan Mirklace (highest attack) or Skarn (resilent through healing process); others help other units: Ardus Ix'Erebus (a high command unit), Splig (a decoy command unit) or Rylan Olliven (our Imperial Officer here in Descent).

That been said, I give you a link where you can see the Plot Decks (a bit outdated but useful) and a sort of a rank where they highlight their strengths.

There is a more up to date list here: http://d2etracker.com/info_classes.php(Without the actual images though)

When I started playing descent I got the Lieutenant packs purely for the miniature. When a map had been played the Heroes or Overlord would decide the next map I checked if that map made use of one of the liutenants, then I went and purchased that one. So by the end of the Shadow Rune campaign I had all the six base game liutenants. I like my big bad boss creatures to have a miniature, not just a token.

We did not play super often, so the cost of the liutenants was spread out over several months. But Now we also use them as agents and make use of the plot decks when we play, which made the money spent more worth while.

I've experienced I.A. before Descent, and Doom after Descent, so, I noticed the evolution on the FFG "engine" looking into reaching a better formula to this line of board game. I agree with the most stuff Charmy said in his post (#2), but I'll consider two aspects I think are mostly relevant in this discussion:

(...) Unfortunately, having played both IA and Descent, I feel that neither game addresses the problem of snow-balling. Generally in these games, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. If you win, you get more rewards. If you get more rewards, you are likely to win more, and the snowballing begins. If there is a discrepancy in player skill on each side, then this problems worsens.

(...) Having played mostly as the heroes in IA, I will say that I found the hidden information aspect of IA very frustrating. It is hard to plan out strategies with incomplete information, and this has resulted in what I feel is a cheap loss due to the fact that the Imperial player gains secret quest-based powers at certain times that the Rebel player has no way of factoring into their strategy.

Yes, the snow ball effect is something that can scare some players, but I encourage every player who gets a loss streak to believe in the campaign flow. Like you can observe in IA, some quests in Descent are designed to give better chances to a specific side, giving the players a chance to start a comeback strategy in the mid of the campaign.

That happened to me. I lost every quest in the campaign (but the interlude - functions like an end of part I of the campaign, the lore begins to make sense, intrigues get revealed and the chalenge gets harder ). So, after all these losses, I traced a plan to win the final quest, not really caring to the losses I had or the itens I've lost. And in fact, you can always turn the table into your favor. So, the campaign ended with a win for me (the overlord - corresponding to the Imperial player in IA). That said, even with the heroes strong, very well geared and with good synergy of skills, I was able to win the final quest and thus, the campaign.

I could not elaborate better than Charmy when he mentioned the hiding information. That is the point I hated in IA. And that often bring unwilling hostility between players. This kind of mechanics you won't find in Descent, every quest is open to all players and they can decide previously about what strategy to take in each particular situation of the quest.

I do not think Descent as an outdated title, or worst mechanics than IA. For the record, there is just two parameters I like more in IA than Descent: the dual tracing to get LOS and the turns intercalation. The corner tracing kind of bugs the game concept of adjacency and favors ranged units to much. Hands down, LOS is something FFG has been improving over the years, with relieable results.

If something haunt the OL in a quest is the heroes 1st turn. The heroes, all of them, have their activation before the overlord, thats pretty much strong on their side, since they can obliterate a whole group before the OL can ever do anything in the map. This kind of stuff rarely happens in IA, thanks to the separated turns. But, if you are gonna play Descent, this is something you'll have to live with.

I think IA is an awesome game, do not understand me wrong, but Descent is not staying behind. So if you ask me if you would buy a Game like Descent to try something new, that depends on what are you seeking:

*More fun? Go and buy it if you are a fantasy lover.

*Win more as the bad guy? Forget it, Descent is considerably more difficult for the Overlord to win than the imperial player in IA, generically speaking.

*Lore content (if you are gonna make Descent a casual play instead of a competitive match)? You'll have a real nice time playing it with your friends. This game has lots of expansions already, and is based on a RPG fantasy universe still in development, so, I'd say there is lots of stuff yet to come.

*Painting minis hobby? That's something I've been starting to do very slowly and I'm having great results! FFG minis are amazing and you can really awake the artistic vein on you by coloring them, shading, drybrushing, blending... I'd recomend to all owners of Descent or IA panting their own minis.

Wow, thanks again everyone for all the great information. Definitely a lot of help in this thread.

I like your last points Dommus, I am actually looking to win less. In IA I find that I really have to dumb down my strategy to give the Rebels a chance, and I can take even the most one sided mission for the Rebels and make it a very competitive match. And I am playing against very competent players, I just find that the Imp has such an advantage in that game.

I would like to make it less about winning and more about the experience, all I aim for in my IA campaigns is to try and keep things close. I like a 6-5 or 7-4 tops, finish for the Rebels. That isn't to say I am always taking it easy on them, many missions I get to stretch my legs and give them a good go, and often steal the win.. but I enjoy the thematic part of it more. I enjoy making it a great experience for them and really playing to the elements. I often work in hints about upcoming events when they move their characters around the board. For instance, if they move up to a door and they aren't sure if they want to open it I say something like "Diala hears a clunking metal sound like an apparatus being assembled on the other side of the door." Good hint that an E-Web is waiting for them at the very least.

I love Star Wars, always have, but at my heart I have always been a fantasy first person. I've grown up on the classic SNES fantasy RPG's and that is what drew me over to Descent. So I think I have enough information here to decide that I will start building my Descent collection. Thanks again everyone for the help.