No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I was thinking that the double-tap is quite possible until I checked the FAQ. The SFR only tells you that Dengar would remain on the table until he has had his "opportunity to attack". And that is the key phrase - opportunity to attack. So what constitutes an opportunity to attack? Is it only the regular PS attack, or does an ability such as Dengar's count as the next opportunity to attack?

In the FAQ under Blinded Pilot (p6), it says that Corran Horn's End phase attack can be used as an opportunity to attack, and allow him to flip the Damage card. So it would appear that an attack granted by a specific ability is actually considered to be opportunity to attack and thus meets the requirement of the SFR.

It seems to me to be Dengar would get either his counter-attack ability OR his regular PS attack, but NOT both.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I don't see that in the current rules... under the SAR rules it says.

"During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

and at the bottom of that paragraph it says, "After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Under Destroying Ships it says... "If the Simultaneous Attack Rule delays a ship’s destruction, it is instead destroyed after it has had its opportunity to attack this round."

At no place in the rules does it mention the standard combat phase attack. Only the opportunity to attack. Until Dengar, there has never been a ship that could perform any sort of attack prior to its normal attack phase. At least none I can think of.

The rule does not refer to an opportunity to attack. It refers to its opportunity to attack, referring specifically to the attack granted at the current PS step, as outlined in the sentence "During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

I'm with Stephen on this one. The use of "its" instead of "an" seems to be referring to the opportunity to attack that every ship gets at its PS. The language could definitely stand to use some clean up now that there is an ability that can provide an additional opportunity to attack before the pilot's normal shot.

Agreed, at same PS and not having initiative, Dengar could counter-attack and trigger R5-P8, and then complete his normal attack before being removed. In other situations he's just dead.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I was thinking that the double-tap is quite possible until I checked the FAQ. The SAR only tells you that Dengar would remain on the table until he has had his "opportunity to attack". And that is the key phrase - opportunity to attack. So what constitutes an opportunity to attack? Is it only the regular PS attack, or does an ability such as Dengar's count as the next opportunity to attack?

In the FAQ under Blinded Pilot (p6), it says that Corran Horn's End phase attack can be used as an opportunity to attack, and allow him to flip the Damage card. So it would appear that an attack granted by a specific ability is actually considered to be an opportunity to attack and thus meets the requirement of the SAR.

It seems to me to be Dengar would get either his counter-attack ability OR his regular PS attack, but NOT both.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I don't see that in the current rules... under the SAR rules it says.

"During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

and at the bottom of that paragraph it says, "After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Under Destroying Ships it says... "If the Simultaneous Attack Rule delays a ship’s destruction, it is instead destroyed after it has had its opportunity to attack this round."

At no place in the rules does it mention the standard combat phase attack. Only the opportunity to attack. Until Dengar, there has never been a ship that could perform any sort of attack prior to its normal attack phase. At least none I can think of.

The rule does not refer to an opportunity to attack. It refers to its opportunity to attack, referring specifically to the attack granted at the current PS step, as outlined in the sentence "During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

It says: "If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed."

The rule refers to an opportunity to attack, but it doesn't refer specifically to any particular opportunity to attack at all. It also doesn't refer to multiple opportunities. It's clearly a singular opportunity to attack.

Dengar's ability gives him an opportunity to attack after he's defended against an attack. There's no denying that if Dengar is attacked by an equal PS pilot (that has the initiative), then he can trigger his ability, (as well as that of R5-P8 if he has him equipped) as he's just defended against an attack. But once he has resolved this opportunity to attack, he's destroyed and removed. So it doesn't really matter if he uses his regular Combat phase attack or his ability counter attack, because once he's resolved an opportunity to attack, he's destroyed.

Until Dengar popped up on the scene, there was only one attack that could be resolved then, but now, in a very rare case, Dengar presents us with two opportunities sharing the same timing window.

Are you saying that Dengar's counter-attack isn't considered an opportunity to attack, and therefore isn't covered by the SAR? Because Corran's End phase attack IS considered an opportunity to attack, and that's granted by a card ability. Why is Dengar's ability not considered to be an opportunity to attack?

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I was thinking that the double-tap is quite possible until I checked the FAQ. The SAR only tells you that Dengar would remain on the table until he has had his "opportunity to attack". And that is the key phrase - opportunity to attack. So what constitutes an opportunity to attack? Is it only the regular PS attack, or does an ability such as Dengar's count as the next opportunity to attack?

In the FAQ under Blinded Pilot (p6), it says that Corran Horn's End phase attack can be used as an opportunity to attack, and allow him to flip the Damage card. So it would appear that an attack granted by a specific ability is actually considered to be an opportunity to attack and thus meets the requirement of the SAR.

It seems to me to be Dengar would get either his counter-attack ability OR his regular PS attack, but NOT both.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I don't see that in the current rules... under the SAR rules it says.

"During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

and at the bottom of that paragraph it says, "After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Under Destroying Ships it says... "If the Simultaneous Attack Rule delays a ship’s destruction, it is instead destroyed after it has had its opportunity to attack this round."

At no place in the rules does it mention the standard combat phase attack. Only the opportunity to attack. Until Dengar, there has never been a ship that could perform any sort of attack prior to its normal attack phase. At least none I can think of.

The rule does not refer to an opportunity to attack. It refers to its opportunity to attack, referring specifically to the attack granted at the current PS step, as outlined in the sentence "During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

It says: "If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed."

The rule refers to an opportunity to attack, but it doesn't refer specifically to any particular opportunity to attack at all. It also doesn't refer to multiple opportunities. It's clearly a singular opportunity to attack.

...

Are you saying that Dengar's counter-attack isn't considered an opportunity to attack, and therefore isn't covered by the SAR? Because Corran's End phase attack IS considered an opportunity to attack, and that's granted by a card ability. Why is Dengar's ability not considered to be an opportunity to attack?

That's not what I'm saying. The SAR rule doesn't reference "an opportunity to attack" it reference's "its opportunity to attack to attack this round". That seems to be referring to a particular opportunity to attack, which is the opportunity that a ship is granted each round.

Interestingly enough, if we use the FAQ entry for the new Blinded Pilot (which seems to be at odds with the other FAQ entries that deal with something similar), it would seem that a ship with a Weapons Disabled token or on an Asteroid would not be destroyed until after it received an opportunity to attack.

Pilot facedown."

I think the original context of the opportunity to attack (OTA) terminology referred to the usual ability to attack via the simultaneous attack rule. This new card shouldn't change that original context. The pilot ability and droid are cards in play, and the player gets to decide the order in which to use them before their turn is up and the ship is destroyed after completing their traditional attack.

You make some well argued points and I appreciate that from the opponent's defense, but I'd recommend context in interpreting OTA rather than creating a new legal term out of it. Hopefully FGG provides a new FAQ when the wave is released! :-)

I'm not trying to create a new term for the game mechanic. But it still stands that the SAR grants a singular chance to return fire before being destroyed , whatever you want to call it. I'm more intrigued by the argument that Dengar's ability somehow isn't classed as an opportunity when it comes to the SAR. The way I see it is that his ability and his regular attack are both an opportunity, and the SAR only requires one. It can be either, but not both. So no double-tap with the SAR.

That's not what I'm saying. The SAR rule doesn't reference "an opportunity to attack" it reference's "its opportunity to attack to attack this round". That seems to be referring to a particular opportunity to attack, which is the opportunity that a ship is granted each round.

When you say that "seems to be referring...", that sounds like an assumption that the regular attack is the only option that it could be. Why? Why can't the opportunity be from another source? It's still an attack isn't it?

Nowhere in the SAR does it state specifically the source of that opportunity. It's just an opportunity. Quibbling over "it's" and "an" in an effort to determine the source or type of attack (regular or card ability) seems pointless to me. The guts of the rule is still simple. You get to shoot back before being destroyed.

In the old rulebook the wording was a little simpler but still had the same meaning.

It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.
After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area.

The use of the word "its" refers to the ship, not the type of attack (regular Combat phase or other). I think the passage in the Rules Reference is much the same, and it is referring to the ship not the attack.

I think the questions that need to be answered are:

• Does any attack count as the ship's "opportunity to attack" during a Simultaneous Attack?
• Does a player get one opportunity only, or would an ability that grants another attack allow multiple attacks during a Simultaneous Attack?

Dengar's pilot ability is a reaction to being attacked - almost like an interrupt, in my opinion. I think (FAQ dependent) that he should get his pilot ability attack, then his regular attack due to simultaneous attack rule (but an FAQ is needed).

On the same note and reasoning this topic actually should apply to one other ship (soon to be two with imperial veterans) the BTL-A4 turret attack is a separate attack from its normally designated one, and likewise the TIE/d. So this argument has a little more relevance than assumed at first blush.

For precedent do BTL-A4s get both attacks? Has this topic come up before?

Guys, back to the original subject as to when Dengar's ability procs, there is some precedent for his ability working even if he has been destroyed. Look at "Fel's Wrath" in the FAQ. If Corran Horn kills him in the end phase he stays around an entire round and get a another move/attack before finally being removed from play.

As to the SAR, there are two cases:

1. Dengar shoots first

2. Dengar shoots second

In either case, he should have his actual shot (normal attack) and then his ability attack. I mean, look, RAW is kind of messy here, but there is no way they won't say: "Ok, Dengar died, he can EITHER do his regular attack for SAR or get his reaction shot from his ability, but not both. I mean, FFG has made some dumb rulings in the past, but Dengar should have both his reaction shot per his ability, and his normal attack per SAR.

Guys, back to the original subject as to when Dengar's ability procs, there is some precedent for his ability working even if he has been destroyed. Look at "Fel's Wrath" in the FAQ. If Corran Horn kills him in the end phase he stays around an entire round and get a another move/attack before finally being removed from play.

As to the SAR, there are two cases:

1. Dengar shoots first

2. Dengar shoots second

In either case, he should have his actual shot (normal attack) and then his ability attack. I mean, look, RAW is kind of messy here, but there is no way they won't say: "Ok, Dengar died, he can EITHER do his regular attack for SAR or get his reaction shot from his ability, but not both. I mean, FFG has made some dumb rulings in the past, but Dengar should have both his reaction shot per his ability, and his normal attack per SAR.

The SAR only applies to a ship that would be destroyed and has not had an opportunity to attack yet. Dengar shooting first destroys another ship, then Dengar has had his attack, so he's done. The destroyed ship gets an opportunity to attack before being removed, and attacks Dengar.

Now a return attack on Dengar is a trigger for his ability, but as the destroyed ship is removed immediately after it's return attack, there's no longer a valid target for Dengar. And Dengar cannot choose a different target. It must be the ship he just defended against.

End result from Dengar shooting first: One attack only, no counter-attack ability possible. The SAR does not apply to him if he shoots first.

And I've stated my view on what happens if he's the one destroyed without having had his opportunity to attack. One return opportunity, not two. As per the SAR.

but as the destroyed ship is removed immediately after it's return attack, there's no longer a valid target for Dengar. And Dengar cannot choose a different target. It must be the ship he just defended against.

Even if he were able to fire back... What good it do? It's not like putting more damage on a destroyed ship is going to help him.

Now if we change things slightly. Dengar shoots, but doesn't destroy the target, and then the target shoots and kills Dengar. Would he get an opportunity to attack back? Myself I'd be inclined to say no, because Immediately trumps all.

Agreed, at same PS and not having initiative, Dengar could counter-attack and trigger R5-P8, and then complete his normal attack before being removed. In other situations he's just dead.

I'm sure this will happen to me at the Hoth Open, since something strange always happens at a large tourney I'm attending. So I'll call over an FFG judge and tell you what the ruling is. Until then!

I'm hoping ffg is on top of it and wave 8 comes with a massive faq update for all the things that have cropped up since wave 7 and all the things coming in wave 8.

I'm hoping ffg is on top of it and wave 8 comes with a massive faq update for all the things that have cropped up since wave 7 and all the things coming in wave 8.

What I say every time they release new content...

"I hope FFG is on top of it and Wave 'X' comes with a massive FAQ update for all the things that need clarification since Wave 'X-1'..."

What never happens: a new FAQ that includes all the issues of concern from Wave X and X-1...

I'm hoping ffg is on top of it and wave 8 comes with a massive faq update for all the things that have cropped up since wave 7 and all the things coming in wave 8.

What I say every time they release new content...

"I hope FFG is on top of it and Wave 'X' comes with a massive FAQ update for all the things that need clarification since Wave 'X-1'..."

What never happens: a new FAQ that includes all the issues of concern from Wave X and X-1...

While a reasonable point I feel like wave 8 is shipping with some complex mechanics that need explanation out of the box, specifically the inquisitor, dengar, and tractor beam (so much tractor beam question)