Just played a game on Vassal where Dengar was down to 1 hit point when it was my turn to fire. If I kill him does Dengar still get to fire back? My thought was no as it Dengar's ability says "Once per round after defending, if the attacker is inside your firing arc, you may perform an attack against that ship." After defending, to me, implies that you only get to attack after you have seen if you are still alive to attack. I.e. if you defend and are alive you can attack, if you defend and die then you are dead. Simultaneous fire does not come into play as Dengar is still PS9, he does not become the same PS as the attacker so the Simultaneous fire rule does not apply.
The other way of thinking (my opponent's way) was that it does not say 'unless the ship was destroyed' and also that the phases go like this:
1. declare target
2. roll attack dice
3. modify attack dice
4. roll defence dice
5.modify defence dice
6. compare results
7. deal damage
So the defence is before deal damage and therefore Dengar gets to attack. I can follow this logic however this would imply that if you hit Dengar with a Blinded Pilot crit he would get to attack before it takes effect. Opinions?

I'd say no. Youhave to be alive for Dengar to trigger. It's not like Simultaneous Fire.

Thoguh it does raise the interesting question of what would happen if Dengar was killed by an equal PS pilot with the initiative in his arc - Simultaneous Fire would clearly apply, but would he also get to use his ability due to not being dead quiiiiiite yet? I can't remember how Simultaneous Fire is worded.

I can't remember how Simultaneous Fire is worded.

Reading the rules now and I'm inclined to say yes, because Dengar triggers after defending.

From the rules page 17...

While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active.

After a ship has resolved its opportunity to attack, before it is destroyed, it can resolve any abilities that trigger after performing an attack.

So if the ship is around long enough to attack and can perform 'after an attack' effects then I'd say an 'after defending' effect would apply as well.

Yep, sounds legit.

I'd say no. Youhave to be alive for Dengar to trigger. It's not like Simultaneous Fire.

Thoguh it does raise the interesting question of what would happen if Dengar was killed by an equal PS pilot with the initiative in his arc - Simultaneous Fire would clearly apply, but would he also get to use his ability due to not being dead quiiiiiite yet? I can't remember how Simultaneous Fire is worded.

The Simultaneous Attack Rule is:

If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area.

So for Dengar, it depends on initiative. If Dengar shot before the enemy PS9, then by the time he's destroyed, he's already had his opportunity to attack, so Simultaneous Attack doesn't keep him in play to trigger his counter-attack. If he shoots after, then Simultaneous Attack will keep him in play until he does, which means that he gets his counter-attack in between.

Yep, that confirms my thought. Means it's potentially hugely valuable for Dengar to give away intiative too, he both wants to move AND shoot after his opponents, so he can get them in his arc when defending and trigger simultaneous attack when they kill him if they're the same PS.

Quite nasty when you think about it. Dengar gets destroyed by an equal PS opponent, but gets his counter-attack and then his simultaneous attack, before finally blowing up.

Simultaneous Attack Rule Doesn't apply in this case. But As mention, I guess the Dengar ability is trigger before dealing dommage.
If we look as Tactician, the word use is : "After you perform an attack" which is resolve after dealing dommage. It's different than "after you attack" which might be resolve before defender roll dice.

That me point of view, but i should be definitely in the FAQ!!

After defending has the same timing as after attacking. Meaning after dealing damage.

By this time Dengar will have been removed and thus gets no return shot.

The argument that simultaneous attack rule allowing you to resolve after attack effects means that you should also get after defending effects when destroyed does not hold.

The after attack effects get to resolve because the rule delays the removal of the ship to the same timing as after attack effects and you get to choose the order.

Nowhere does Dengar get to delay the destruction of his ship from the damage being dealt in dtep 7 to after the attack. Anly being subject to the simultaneous attack rule would do that.

At first I thought this was kind of the same thing as Gunner/Vader combo. The FAQ states that you can still perform the gunner attack even if you use Vader to selfdestruct after the first attack. So it is possible to be granted an attack after you are destroyed.

BUT in the Vader case, the cause of death triggers AFTER the attack (Vaders trigger is after you perform an attack) and in the Dengar case (not taking about the same PS situation now) the cause of death is the attack it self.

So for Dengar, he dies befor the trigger for the conter attack, but with Vader, the gunner attack is allready triggered when Vader does his thing.

The argument that simultaneous attack rule allowing you to resolve after attack effects means that you should also get after defending effects when destroyed does not hold.

Based on what?

If Dengar is destroyed by a ship with the same PS, he isn't removed until after he's had an opportunity to attack. That means there's a place in which 'after defending' events can trigger before he attacks. If critical effects, upgrade and pilot abilities still apply per the simultaneous attack rule, then Dengard ability to counter attack still applies.

The trigger for that ability is 'after defending' and he is in fact removed sometime after that trigger event.

Please show me where in the rules or FAQ a trigger is ignored because a ship is set to be destroyed but hasn't actually been destroyed yet.

In fact the Hound's Tooth title is a prime example of a trigger happening before a ship is destroyed.

So for Dengar, he dies befor the trigger for the conter attack

No he doesn't, because he isn't destroyed until after he's had an opportunity to attack. Assuming he didn't shoot first, then he is not destroyed before that trigger event.

I think there are a few different cases here:

1. Dengar has initiative and is destroyed by another ship with the same PS.

2. Dengar does not have initiative and is destroyed by another ship with the same PS.

3. Dengar is destroyed by a ship with a PS different from his own.

I believe that the second case is the only one in which Dengar's ability would trigger. A ship with R5-P8 would be in the same situation.

No, case 2 is the only case where it would trigger - in case 1, dengar would be destroyed immediately, because he would already have taken his PS shot for the round so simultaneous fire would not occur.

Case 2 Dengar is shooting last, so his opponent shoots, he's destroyed - but Simultaneous Fire triggers keeping him on the board. Which means his ability goes off because he's on the board. Then he shoots because of Simultaneous Fire. Then he explodes.

Case 3 there's no question I don't think; he's not alive to shoot back.

All of the above is of course dependent on the FAQ not believing differently than I do.

No, case 2 is the only case where it would trigger - in case 1, dengar would be destroyed immediately, because he would already have taken his PS shot for the round so simultaneous fire would not occur.

Case 2 Dengar is shooting last, so his opponent shoots, he's destroyed - but Simultaneous Fire triggers keeping him on the board. Which means his ability goes off because he's on the board. Then he shoots because of Simultaneous Fire. Then he explodes.

Case 3 there's no question I don't think; he's not alive to shoot back.

All of the above is of course dependent on the FAQ not believing differently than I do.

You are correct, I didn't have them in the order that I thought I did. I updated my post.

Yeah, #2 is the only case he'd get to counter attack.

In the case of #1 he had the opportunity to attack and so he's removed immediately meaning he's destroyed before the 'after defending' trigger.

In the case of #3 the Simultaneous Attack Rule doesn't apply so again he's removed immediately meaning he's destroyed before the 'after defending' trigger.

But in the case of #2, he's not actually removed until after his opportunity to attack, that means the 'after defending' trigger is processed before he's removed.

The argument that simultaneous attack rule allowing you to resolve after attack effects means that you should also get after defending effects when destroyed does not hold.

Based on what?

If Dengar is destroyed by a ship with the same PS, he isn't removed until after he's had an opportunity to attack. That means there's a place in which 'after defending' events can trigger before he attacks. If critical effects, upgrade and pilot abilities still apply per the simultaneous attack rule, then Dengard ability to counter attack still applies.

The trigger for that ability is 'after defending' and he is in fact removed sometime after that trigger event.

Please show me where in the rules or FAQ a trigger is ignored because a ship is set to be destroyed but hasn't actually been destroyed yet.

In fact the Hound's Tooth title is a prime example of a trigger happening before a ship is destroyed.

So for Dengar, he dies befor the trigger for the conter attack

No he doesn't, because he isn't destroyed until after he's had an opportunity to attack. Assuming he didn't shoot first, then he is not destroyed before that trigger event.

I was referring to your last sentence in post #3

But from your later posts it seems like we are now in agreement that Dengar only gets to retaliate if he would be destroyed but is kept alive by the Simultaneous Fire rule.

But from your later posts it seems like we are now in agreement that Dengar only gets to retaliate if he would be destroyed but is kept alive by the Simultaneous Fire rule.

Ok I see where that statement could be misunderstood.

I wasn't saying that in general, just in the 2nd case that WWHSD listed in post 12

Here's an interesting twist: the way simultaneous fire reads is it possible dengar's ability replaces his normal opportunity to attack?

If a ship would be destroyed and it has the same pilot skill value as the active ship but has not had an opportunity to attack yet, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area.

While I'm pretty sure dengar gets to do the double tap because of simultaneous fire it does ask the question of what counts as an 'opportunity to attack'.

Here's an interesting twist: the way simultaneous fire reads is it possible dengar's ability replaces his normal opportunity to attack?

I think you may have a point there. It says "You may perform an attack against that ship" bolded for emphasis. Dengar's counter attack is an attack itself so it may and I think should qualify as his opportunity to attack.

In fact it could be argued that means if Dengar could shoot the attacker and doesn't he has given up his opportunity to attack per the SAR.

I guess that means it's likely that Dengar only gets one shot even in WWHSD's case #2... He can't counter attack and attack.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I was thinking that the double-tap is quite possible until I checked the FAQ. The SAR only tells you that Dengar would remain on the table until he has had his "opportunity to attack". And that is the key phrase - opportunity to attack. So what constitutes an opportunity to attack? Is it only the regular PS attack, or does an ability such as Dengar's count as the next opportunity to attack?

In the FAQ under Blinded Pilot (p6), it says that Corran Horn's End phase attack can be used as an opportunity to attack, and allow him to flip the Damage card. So it would appear that an attack granted by a specific ability is actually considered to be an opportunity to attack and thus meets the requirement of the SAR.

It seems to me to be Dengar would get either his counter-attack ability OR his regular PS attack, but NOT both.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I don't see that in the current rules... under the SAR rules it says.

"During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

and at the bottom of that paragraph it says, "After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Under Destroying Ships it says... "If the Simultaneous Attack Rule delays a ship’s destruction, it is instead destroyed after it has had its opportunity to attack this round."

At no place in the rules does it mention the standard combat phase attack. Only the opportunity to attack. Until Dengar, there has never been a ship that could perform any sort of attack prior to its normal attack phase. At least none I can think of.

So for Dengar, he dies befor the trigger for the conter attack

No he doesn't, because he isn't destroyed until after he's had an opportunity to attack. Assuming he didn't shoot first, then he is not destroyed before that trigger event.

I was specificaly talking about a situation where the involved ships do not have the same PS. It's in the part that you left out of the quote

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I was thinking that the double-tap is quite possible until I checked the FAQ. The SFR only tells you that Dengar would remain on the table until he has had his "opportunity to attack". And that is the key phrase - opportunity to attack. So what constitutes an opportunity to attack? Is it only the regular PS attack, or does an ability such as Dengar's count as the next opportunity to attack?

In the FAQ under Blinded Pilot (p6), it says that Corran Horn's End phase attack can be used as an opportunity to attack, and allow him to flip the Damage card. So it would appear that an attack granted by a specific ability is actually considered to be opportunity to attack and thus meets the requirement of the SFR.

It seems to me to be Dengar would get either his counter-attack ability OR his regular PS attack, but NOT both.

No the SFR refers specifically to the opportunity to perform your standard combat phase attack at the current PS, not just an attack.

I don't see that in the current rules... under the SAR rules it says.

"During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."

and at the bottom of that paragraph it says, "After it has had its opportunity to attack, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Under Destroying Ships it says... "If the Simultaneous Attack Rule delays a ship’s destruction, it is instead destroyed after it has had its opportunity to attack this round."

At no place in the rules does it mention the standard combat phase attack. Only the opportunity to attack. Until Dengar, there has never been a ship that could perform any sort of attack prior to its normal attack phase. At least none I can think of.

The rule does not refer to an opportunity to attack. It refers to its opportunity to attack, referring specifically to the attack granted at the current PS step, as outlined in the sentence "During the Combat phase, all ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed."