I'm right there with you. I hope hybrid classes are a good addition.

I think so as well. There are some classes where the 3XP skills aren't so important (stalker, thief.... knight?) but there are many (skirmisher, wildlander, disciple) where the lack of access to those skills will likely be a huge offset. I'm confident FFG thought these decks through, but I guess we'll see.

FFG did some mistakes before and some expansions broke the whole game. Let's hope this one is not one of thoses

How do you mean? I do think that by adding more content you will always get that some choices will be just better. Power creep is kind of inevitable imo. I do own some expansions but I don't think they break the game.

I think so as well. There are some classes where the 3XP skills aren't so important (stalker, thief.... knight?) but there are many (skirmisher, wildlander, disciple) where the lack of access to those skills will likely be a huge offset. I'm confident FFG thought these decks through, but I guess we'll see.

FFG did some mistakes before and some expansions broke the whole game. Let's hope this one is not one of thoses

How do you mean? I do think that by adding more content you will always get that some choices will be just better. Power creep is kind of inevitable imo. I do own some expansions but I don't think they break the game.

Power Creep is one thing, and is a problem that should not be taken lightly, but I would define "breaking the game" as anything that clearly and obviously results in a superior choice over something else, especially if it is not based on chance in any way. Somme choices will just be better than others, yes; but when some choices are clearly better than others in every situation, then you've screwed things up.

And patching doesn't really work in the world of boardgames.

I think so as well. There are some classes where the 3XP skills aren't so important (stalker, thief.... knight?) but there are many (skirmisher, wildlander, disciple) where the lack of access to those skills will likely be a huge offset. I'm confident FFG thought these decks through, but I guess we'll see.

FFG did some mistakes before and some expansions broke the whole game. Let's hope this one is not one of thoses

How do you mean? I do think that by adding more content you will always get that some choices will be just better. Power creep is kind of inevitable imo. I do own some expansions but I don't think they break the game.

Power Creep is one thing, and is a problem that should not be taken lightly, but I would define "breaking the game" as anything that clearly and obviously results in a superior choice over something else, especially if it is not based on chance in any way. Somme choices will just be better than others, yes; but when some choices are clearly better than others in every situation, then you've screwed things up.

And patching doesn't really work in the world of boardgames.

The thing about that is that you can just pick something else. If you are picking Logan the Treasure Hunter or the Zachareth plot deck every single time things will get dull fast. If you are not a min/max person I don't think that power creep will be a problem.

And you can still patch in board games, namely errata. Sure, people can opt to play with the old rules, but they can house rule anyway.

I think so as well. There are some classes where the 3XP skills aren't so important (stalker, thief.... knight?) but there are many (skirmisher, wildlander, disciple) where the lack of access to those skills will likely be a huge offset. I'm confident FFG thought these decks through, but I guess we'll see.

FFG did some mistakes before and some expansions broke the whole game. Let's hope this one is not one of thoses

How do you mean? I do think that by adding more content you will always get that some choices will be just better. Power creep is kind of inevitable imo. I do own some expansions but I don't think they break the game.

Power Creep is one thing, and is a problem that should not be taken lightly, but I would define "breaking the game" as anything that clearly and obviously results in a superior choice over something else, especially if it is not based on chance in any way. Somme choices will just be better than others, yes; but when some choices are clearly better than others in every situation, then you've screwed things up.

And patching doesn't really work in the world of boardgames.

The thing about that is that you can just pick something else. If you are picking Logan the Treasure Hunter or the Zachareth plot deck every single time things will get dull fast. If you are not a min/max person I don't think that power creep will be a problem.

And you can still patch in board games, namely errata. Sure, people can opt to play with the old rules, but they can house rule anyway.

Yes, it'll get old fast, but so will knowingly kneecapping yourself by picking obviously sub-optimal choices on principle. Most people don't do that, and they feel cheated when they feel like they have to, just to not keep running the same boring combo again and again. This is why it becomes a problem. If everything was automatically randomized, nothing would ever really be game-breaking, but in terms of mechanics interacting with human psychology, it's a completely different beast.

And while it's possible to do Errata, Errata is by it's nature corrections to faults, not big changes, nor will an errata provide new cards or supply new mechanics. It just won't happen. Damage done by a badly implemented and newly introduced mechanic will be nigh-irreversible.

And house-rules is a completely different can of worms. This is not a roleplaying game with a game-master in an arbitrator's position, with a fix-all Rule 0, but an oppositional board-game based around the assumption that all are playing by a set of given rules. House-ruling should never be an acceptable solution to a systemic issue. In a roleplaying game, it'd be poor design that is easy circumvented or patched on the basis of "Nawh man, that makes no **** sense. I'm calling it like this for you guys." In Descent or Mansions of Madness or Imperial Assault? God no. It's two completely different environments with two completely different aims.

Yes, it'll get old fast, but so will knowingly kneecapping yourself by picking obviously sub-optimal choices on principle. Most people don't do that, and they feel cheated when they feel like they have to, just to not keep running the same boring combo again and again. This is why it becomes a problem. If everything was automatically randomized, nothing would ever really be game-breaking, but in terms of mechanics interacting with human psychology, it's a completely different beast.

And while it's possible to do Errata, Errata is by it's nature corrections to faults, not big changes, nor will an errata provide new cards or supply new mechanics. It just won't happen. Damage done by a badly implemented and newly introduced mechanic will be nigh-irreversible.

And house-rules is a completely different can of worms. This is not a roleplaying game with a game-master in an arbitrator's position, with a fix-all Rule 0, but an oppositional board-game based around the assumption that all are playing by a set of given rules. House-ruling should never be an acceptable solution to a systemic issue. In a roleplaying game, it'd be poor design that is easy circumvented or patched on the basis of "Nawh man, that makes no **** sense. I'm calling it like this for you guys." In Descent or Mansions of Madness or Imperial Assault? God no. It's two completely different environments with two completely different aims.

I took the freedom of removing some quotation history because readability.

1) Well, I don't think you should live with the fact that you are making suboptimal choices, but rather that you are playing the fun combinations. For example, the Conjurer might be harder to play and (possibly for that reason) suboptimal compared to the Runemaster, but that shouldn't stop you from playing it. There is a difference between what is better versus what is fun.

2) Expansions can be considered patches that way, they add new elements to the game. Also, patches in video games (I think you meant this with 'patches') are also (or more often) correcting faults in the programming than something else. But complaint in these days: a video game is released, the next day you are downloading patches because the game is still riddled with bugs. Personally, I think that a big part of product development is in the post-release stage. When thousands of people are playing your game regularly, things that were previously unnoticed will be noticed. Especially when you are developing complex games it shows care for the costumers when you are attending these issues. I can rant on about the lack of a good Descent Errata but that misses the point.

3) I completely agree with your opinion on house ruling. The reason I brought up house ruling in the first place is because in board game a patch (be it errata or something else) can not be enforced the way like it can in a video game. I thought you brought up patches to demonstrate that people can just ignore them in board gaming, hence my point that people can house rule anyway and can come up with alternative modes of play versus choosing the different modes of play presented by all these different explanations provided by the developers. But this freedom can be a good thing if it improves the fun you and your friends are getting from the game.

tl;dr: Pick things that are fun. And developers should make good Errata because that is very important.

Agreed, but the only thing is that it is annoying to remember all these errated rules. If FFG would start to errate whole skills or even decks to make them stronger/better balanced compared to newer class decks it would be a huge mess.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Ronan of the Wild amongst the "Worst".

His Hero Ability is near-useless; it gives him Pico , who can be placed on Search Tokens within 3 spaces of Ronan, and allow other heroes that are adjacent to Pico to loot for free.

Compare this to Thaiden Mistpeak , who can choose to cancel a bad attack to effectively straight-up loot anything within 3 spaces in what effectively amounts to a free action (or at least prevents a wasted action, which is essentially the same).

Ronan of the Wild's Heroic Feat is similarly useless and incredibly circumstantial; yes, it could be nice to trade for free with any other hero anywhere, but in the vast majority of cases, all you need to do is to be adjacent (or become adjacent) during a Move Action and you can trade items anyway. It's a complete sucker's deal. Whoever thought this would be a good idea or worthwile mechanic?

Again, compare this to Thaidan Mistpeak, with his ability to straight-up immobilize an opponent that enters an empty space adjacent to him and then move up to 3 spaces. Useful in almost every single encounter.

Thaiden also has a better attribute spread, with more dependable scores, while Ronan of the Wild is at best lukewarm in everything. Thaidan makes a borderline overpowered Treasure Hunter. Ronan makes a useless everything. And it's sad, too, because I really want to love Ronan, and I really want to love Pico. But I can't. It's just awful. Just. Awful.

I'd probably give some bodypart to force Thaidan to need Line of Sight to the things he loots and to allow Ronan of the Wild to send Pico to loot things for him as an Action as well as allowing anyone adjacent to a Pico-occupied Search Token to loot for free. Even just changing Pico's text from "another hero's turn" to "a hero's turn" would be a considerable boon and might make him more fun to play. Ronan not having any personal interaction with his own pet is beyond strange.

But I don't think that any errata could save Ronan's useless Heroic Feat. It's beyond redemption. Maybe rewording it so you move Pico to another hero, and you can freely give items to that hero for as long as Pico's there (and the other hero can give it back during their own turn). I dunno.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Ronan of the Wild amongst the "Worst".

His Hero Ability is near-useless; it gives him Pico , who can be placed on Search Tokens within 3 spaces of Ronan, and allow other heroes that are adjacent to Pico to loot for free.

Compare this to Thaiden Mistpeak , who can choose to cancel a bad attack to effectively straight-up loot anything within 3 spaces in what effectively amounts to a free action (or at least prevents a wasted action, which is essentially the same).

Ronan of the Wild's Heroic Feat is similarly useless and incredibly circumstantial; yes, it could be nice to trade for free with any other hero anywhere, but in the vast majority of cases, all you need to do is to be adjacent (or become adjacent) during a Move Action and you can trade items anyway. It's a complete sucker's deal. Whoever thought this would be a good idea or worthwile mechanic?

Again, compare this to Thaidan Mistpeak, with his ability to straight-up immobilize an opponent that enters an empty space adjacent to him and then move up to 3 spaces. Useful in almost every single encounter.

Thaiden also has a better attribute spread, with more dependable scores, while Ronan of the Wild is at best lukewarm in everything. Thaidan makes a borderline overpowered Treasure Hunter. Ronan makes a useless everything. And it's sad, too, because I really want to love Ronan, and I really want to love Pico. But I can't. It's just awful. Just. Awful.

I'd probably give some bodypart to force Thaidan to need Line of Sight to the things he loots and to allow Ronan of the Wild to send Pico to loot things for him as an Action as well as allowing anyone adjacent to a Pico-occupied Search Token to loot for free. Even just changing Pico's text from "another hero's turn" to "a hero's turn" would be a considerable boon and might make him more fun to play. Ronan not having any personal interaction with his own pet is beyond strange.

But I don't think that any errata could save Ronan's useless Heroic Feat. It's beyond redemption. Maybe rewording it so you move Pico to another hero, and you can freely give items to that hero for as long as Pico's there (and the other hero can give it back during their own turn). I dunno.

You're crazy man !

Ronan of the Wild IS a really good hero. In fact, his hero ability offers possibility to search without spending actions so It would offer up to 4 free actions per encounter

and his feat is another free action exchange with free distance.

Not on the top heroes, but fairly not on the bad ones, for sure !

With him as a thief, you will spare all open and closes doors more.

Sorry to say that, but you don't know how to play it, that's all !

and he is far better than he was in his previous CK version (where he sucks)

You're crazy man !

Ronan of the Wild IS a really good hero. In fact, his hero ability offers possibility to search without spending actions so It would offer up to 4 free actions per encounter

Possibility being the operative word here. It is possible that someone other than Ronan himself may be able to save up to 4ish actions per encounter (which on top of everything is highly dependent on the number of heroes). Again, compare this to Thaiden Mistpeak, who can choose to not go through with a failed or bad attack, and instead loot something himself, from three tiles away - effectively saving an action. Then someone may or may not save an action by going up to Pico, the owner of which also has to already be within three spaces of the Search Token anyway.

and his feat is another free action exchange with free distance.

The problem is that several things have to be true for me to even consider using it.

First, whomever I want to trade with has to be well out of reach, and I have to be either unable or unwilling to take any movement actions near the target. And then the target has to be carrying something I really need, or desperately need something I'm carrying (and know in advance, since it must happen on my turn). And finally, on top of that, since the first few criteria are true before I need to consider using the feat, the final criteria is that one of us will have to be able to make do ourselves without whatever is the subject of the trade, since the items would have to be traded back (if applicable) in the normal fashion.

So yeah, no. It may save you an action in the worst of circumstances, but those circumstances are so specific the stars will likely never align.

Not on the top heroes, but fairly not on the bad ones, for sure !

With him as a thief, you will spare all open and closes doors more.

Spare all open and closes doors more?

Sorry to say that, but you don't know how to play it, that's all !

and he is far better than he was in his previous CK version (where he sucks)

Well I can't say anything about his previous CK version, but based on the Wikia entry, at least Pico seems useful and at least his Heroic Feat accomplishes something that is likely to be consistently useful, if not at all stellar in any way.

As it is, though, I can't see Ronan of the Wild accomplishing anything that other heroes (such as, again, Thaiden Mistpeak) doesn't essentially do better already.

There is one way in which Ronan's feat can be game-saving.

If a quest requires you to move an object from point a to point B, and allows it to be traded, you can zoom it along using Pico, provided Ronan is far from the person with the quest item/receiving the quest item (but not a token, since I'm not sure he could trade a non-item, even if the quest rules say it can be transferred to another hero)

There is one way in which Ronan's feat can be game-saving.

If a quest requires you to move an object from point a to point B, and allows it to be traded, you can zoom it along using Pico, provided Ronan is far from the person with the quest item/receiving the quest item (but not a token, since I'm not sure he could trade a non-item, even if the quest rules say it can be transferred to another hero)

Granted, but the number of quests where this can be set up reliably (such as having Ronan by the exit while the other heroes secure the item, the quest no requiring all heroes to leave, the item in question actually being a "Shop item card, Relic card or Search card") is.. not many. It essentially comes down to "Yes, it coooooooooould conceivably be useful.. but it's not." It's too restricted and too circumstantial.

Had it been more open, such as having free transfer as long as Pico is on another hero's card (so, until you move it to yourself or a search token) it might've been useful (since you could practically share some items for a while) but as it stands, it's not something that could be easily fixed by errata. The ability would probably have to be completely reworded.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Ronan of the Wild amongst the "Worst".

I've spoken about Ronan before. As rugal has already stated, I think you're completely wrong about Ronan being bad. I have used him in campaigns and in co-ops, and I've always been very happy with the results.

I consider him one of my favorite scouts. When played properly and with good team work and synergy with other heroes (particularly mobile heroes like Skirmisher make a great "search buddy"), he will consistently grant several free actions every encounter. By making searching 'free', save for the movement, he provides extremely good value.

He is the kind of Scout that doesn't make me regret picking a class like the Wildlander or Bounty Hunter - because he makes up for the classes' lack of good token-searching abilities through his pet. Thus he can fill one of the critical jobs a Scout is ideally supposed to excel at - which is efficiently picking up search tokens.

You claim Thaiden's ability is better. I just disagree. Thaiden's ability requires that he be able to make an attack while within 3 spaces of a search token. What if no monsters are around a search token, which is a not uncommon situation? Then he must be forced to waste a precious action searching that token by going right adjacent to it, losing his 3 space savings. Even if there is a monster around, then he still has to use an action to search the token - he simply gets to save a botched attack - something that may not occur! If the attack isn't botched, he has a lousy choice of: Do I take out the monster, or do I grab the loot from 3 spaces away?

Meanwhile, Pico is snatching up that token for the party without an action used at all.

And yes, his heroic feat is circumstantial, and there will certainly be quests where you do not need it. That is always a strike in my book. But it really is not like Thaiden's is that much better - it is the kind of feat a good Overlord will play around.

I find Ronan's feat incredibly valuable in many situations. You claim that trades are trivial to arrange, because all it takes to perform a trade between party members is a move action. In intense encounters, there are many situations where the heroes cannot spare *ANY* actions in order to move. They need to be fatigue-moving and double attacking, resting and using abilities. Being able to spend a move action and brushing up adjacent to another hero can be a luxury.

Imagine a situation where one of the heroes is looting the secret room while the rest of the party is completing the objective. If that hero manages to loot the Treasure Chest from a Challenge Token and finds a great weapon for Thaiden, then he doesn't have to wait till he leaves the secret room, gets to Thaiden, and spends a move action in his vicinity. Instead, Ronan just has to start his turn, yank the item from that hero from across the map, and equip it on the spot - not to mention exchange any potions that might be crucial to the party's survival.

In my view, Ronan is a solid mid/upper tier hero and I'm always happy to see the cute lil red panda in my hero teams I also love high Willpower - it is often the worst check to fail in.

First, whomever I want to trade with has to be well out of reach, and I have to be either unable or unwilling to take any movement actions near the target. And then the target has to be carrying something I really need, or desperately need something I'm carrying (and know in advance, since it must happen on my turn). And finally, on top of that, since the first few criteria are true before I need to consider using the feat, the final criteria is that one of us will have to be able to make do ourselves without whatever is the subject of the trade, since the items would have to be traded back (if applicable) in the normal fashion.

So yeah, no. It may save you an action in the worst of circumstances, but those circumstances are so specific the stars will likely never align.

I think this happened at least 5 times in our last campaign.

A hero in desperate need of a health potion (search card) that is in your possession, even standing right next to you, but you both really need to be able to perform 4 useful actions, and not waste one action on a useless move action just to trade.

I never thought of Ronan as particularly bad. His stats are good (5 fatigue, 10 HP), his attributes are very good (only lore is below 3, that's nearly Lindell-like; willpower is even 4, imo very good for a scout). His hero skill basically makes searching free for every other hero, this might be a bit worse if you don't play with 4 heroes, but these kind of skills that up your gold-income are among the best imo. Heroic feat mybe is situational, but it doesn't require an action and given that you probably pick up all the search tokens when playing with him, I imagine this feat to be very valuable and hard for the OL to play against.

The only downside of this hero is that he requires good cooperation and although he is utility-based, he would really shine with the scout classes that don't give you utility (because the hero covers it by hmiself). But you need a good party composition to not let the drawbacks of utility based hero-skills haunt you in the later stages of the game.

Compared to Thaiden he imo has more valuable attributes and I find his hero skill better, because you are not just scratching a bad attack action (while still technically spending an action) but your party-members don't need to spend actions to search at all.

Still imo most "speed 3" heroes are worse than him and harder to build a party around.

I think this happened at least 5 times in our last campaign.

A hero in desperate need of a health potion (search card) that is in your possession, even standing right next to you, but you both really need to be able to perform 4 useful actions, and not waste one action on a useless move action just to trade.

In that one particular situation involving potions and heroes that are already next to each other, don't forget that stamina and healing potions can always be applied to an adjacent ally - no trades required

Oh right, then it was probably something else. Can't remember exactly

I think this happened at least 5 times in our last campaign.

A hero in desperate need of a health potion (search card) that is in your possession, even standing right next to you, but you both really need to be able to perform 4 useful actions, and not waste one action on a useless move action just to trade.

In that one particular situation involving potions and heroes that are already next to each other, don't forget that stamina and healing potions can always be applied to an adjacent ally - no trades required

I didn't even think of that, so that makes him even worse.

I think "Best" and "worse" can be measured in different ways. I think the best classes/heroes are thoses that facilitate the most fun gaming experince.

Hence, my favorites:

Warrior:

Knight, Champion, Beastmaster are all really cool i think (haven't tried marshall)

Mage:

Conjurer

Scout:

Haven't really played scout yet, but i like the idea of the Shadow walker and the bounty hunter.

Healer:

Apothecary - i love this class. Bard comes in second.

Worst classes:

Warrior:

Berserker. Just klonky and borring

Mage:

Have not yet had a bad experience being mage.

Scout:

Treasure Hunter - i really like the idea behind him, but this class just seems to good. But then again, if it is a weak group alltogether, it might be fine.

Healer:

Spiritspeaker. I like the theme, but it seems, besides Vigor, that it doesn't make much of a difference to the group..

For heroes i dont have much to say, other that to me theme/identification is equally important to skill.

I don't know why people are calling berserker a bad class. He has one of the best AOE in the game. If a party has both berserker and common blaster (runemage for example) overlord will have to do tremendeous job to avoid splashing. Yes, you can go for strong minions. But when Berserker gets good act II weapon he easily kills any monster in 1-2 attacks with his free surge.

The berserker is not a bad class, but it is a bit underwhelming next to the other warrior classes. The berserker can hit, yes. But knight can hit and move. And protect. The skirmisher can hit and move or hit and never miss. The champion can help everyone else hit and sometimes hit REALLY hard. The beastmaster has a wolf. The marshal can mess with the overlord. (Almost) every skill the berserker has, some other class has a better or more interesting version of that skill.

and the base card of the Beserker is really is a joke ! Useless ...

and the base card of the Beserker is really is a joke ! Useless ...

A skill that gives you the exact same result as the surges on your weapon, but at the cost of one fatigue is pretty hilarious.

Why did they not make it cost 0, or give him a free surge, or... make it double the extra damage from one surge if he spends a surge to increase damage?

The only thing I can think is that the berserker is really straightforward, and makes a good class for someone new to the game. "What would you like your character's main strength to be?" "I just want to kill stuff." "Have I got the class for you!"

Personally I really like the Stalker class. It may not be the best but I think it's a lot better than people give it credit for. Easy Prey + Poison Barbs is a rather nasty combination that can poison a LOT of monsters all at once and the OL doesn't have very many answers. As far as I know only Dark Remedy can really counter that. Our group just did the Endless Night quest and this combo put a literal timer on nearly all his reinforcements forcing the OL to go on the offensive before he was ready. While the OL recognized that he could have done a coule things better, this move was a bit of a game changer for our group. To be sure, everyone made some epic plays and all contributed to the victory. This was mine that I feel highlights the benefit of the stalker class.

For reference:

Easy Prey (1 Stamina): *action* : Exhaust this card to perform an attack. Before rolling dice, place 1 trap token in the closest empty space adjacent to the target. While this card is exhausted, each attack targeting a monster adjacent to a trap token gains Pierce 1.

Poison Barbs (2 Stamina): Exhaust this card during your turn to choose a trap token on the map. Roll the blue attack die for each monster within 3 spaces of the chosen trap token. Each time you do not roll an X, the monster is Poisoned. Then, discard the trap token.

To be sure, there's definitely some problems with Stalker but I think that there's a lot of fun to be had with it for those who are willing to try it out.

So whether you hit with your attack or not - the trap remains. This is great for positioning of the trap and to get it in an area where it can affect many monsters.

Then you have Poison Barbs. And Poison barbs doesn't care. It doesn't care if you have LoS. It doesn't care if you're on the other side of the map. All it cares about is whether a monster is within 3 spaces. That you can accomplish both moves on a single turn using only one action is pretty awesome imo.