I don't see this as a problem.

1. FFG need to make some money and I don't think we can really accuse them of cash-grabbing or not caring about customers.

2. 1 of these cards is probably enough for any competitive player as I can't really see anyone really using it on a T-70 (Poe, Red Ace and Ello want other mods like thrusters) and since when does anyone run more than one T-65?

3. If you play casually you can print your own or proxy. No one is going to be too worried.

@squark

I intended no deception, not even reading through my post for a tenth time can I figure out what your referring to. But we can discuss it a bit if you'd like.

Firstly establishing that the 65 was actually doing fine, and showed few signs of faltering right up to the phantom menace days, there were two in Heavers list at worlds the year before that after all, and win the final against the benchmark. Even then it could be argued it wasn't as point efficient as the B-wing which again Heaver was using in the same list. So it can be reasonably concluded that something happened that advanced the power level of the overall game that forced them out of viability. I'd wager it was the phantom followed by Dash that nixed then myself.

As to the usability of errata updates to game content, it does work. Hell the game as it stands, being completely realistic, has at least a few erratas already, like the functional changes for Experimental Interface that actually makes it work, or the timing change to cloaking. And with the advent of smart phones allowing you to access the errata at a moment's notice, download it for future reference, or print it out, it's actually super easy. Wizards has been using the Oracle card database to keep track of their massive card library with all the errata text included and even a comments section. But whether it is difficult or not is a fairly subjective argument. Agree to disagree?

So, the IA upgrade is a fix? or not ?

Really it does not matter. Diferent opinions are good, and of course there are diferent game experiences. Some people come from MTG or L5R backgrounds, original cards are important for them. Other people is more demandind on fine quality models, or balanced scenarios, etc. Or perhaps you only want to play VASSAL and this is a stupid topic.

But perhaps after IA, Chimps, future T 65 fix...the time for X wing 2.0 is coming

I agree with you that the upgrade card business model ends up anti-consumer for players that don't do full wave buys. However, isn't asking for X-Wing 2.0 somewhat hypocritical here? Because let's be clear, a 2.0 does not mean a profit butchering conversion pack for all existing models. Look at all FFG's other 2.0s: it means clean slate, start over.

Firstly establishing that the 65 was actually doing fine, and showed few signs of faltering right up to the phantom menace days, there were two in Heavers list at worlds the year before that after all, and win the final against the benchmark. Even then it could be argued it wasn't as point efficient as the B-wing which again Heaver was using in the same list. So it can be reasonably concluded that something happened that advanced the power level of the overall game that forced them out of viability. I'd wager it was the phantom followed by Dash that nixed then myself.

That was Wave 3.

One T-65 was in there because it was Biggs. The other was there because of point constraints: there was no Z-95 option and the A-wing was in its pre-Rebel Aces state.

The X-wing managed until Wave 4 because it had a monopoly, and having a monopoly means you don't need to provide a good service.

Some people come from MTG or L5R backgrounds, original cards are important for them.

That's their fault. If they're not being made to by tournament rules I have zero sympathy about their insistence on multiple copies. Maybe even less than zero if they also pressure their friends into throwing money on ships they won't use for cards.

There is no excuse for not swapping out Cool Hand for a second Integrated Astromech.

1) For new players, they will have a core set and thus either an original or T-70 x-wing. They probably will still be in the mindset that they "have to" have a "real" card to play and won't use proxies.

Put yourself in this player's shoes. You are just getting into this game and playing with your x-wing, only to discover that there is a 0 point upgrade (a 0 point upgrade ! ) that is necessary to make your ship tournament viable according to the experienced players and it costs $15 a copy. That's your first impression of the game - that purchasing a ship is not enough to play a fair match, you also have to know about and purchase a different $15 expansion. That this is an unfair game where players who spend more get better ships.

However many copes of this pack you buy, you'll still always have one fewer ship than fixes. Not only does this mean that you need to spend $15 for each ship you intend to run (making already having the core set model worthless), but it also feels bad.

1b) Now imagine the pack has 2 copies. You still have that initial sting, but now instead of buying an upgrade and a still having 1 fewer ships than fixes, you have a fix for your new ship and your original.

This extra copy is why aces expansions are so popular. They read as "Buy another copy of a ship you like, and you can update all your copies to the new and improved version!" rather than as "In order to get the balanced version of your ship, you need to buy every one of your copies all over again".

2) You still don't get more than 5 cards per pack. Fantasy Flight games can afford more upgrades. Every rules card costs twice the ink and paper of an upgrade and they cram 2 or 3 of those in a $15 expansion without blinking but if it's important to include just enough upgrades to sell the pack then this works. It also doesn't raise the uncomfortable question of why, if they can afford 6 upgrades, all the other packs are 5 upgrades.

3) It would create more goodwill among fans of the original x-wings, as they could buy just 1 or 2 T-70s to get to play with balanced x-wings, instead of 3 - 4.

Point 1: maybe the experienced players should be able to come up with variety instead of jumping to auto-includes.

There is no excuse for not swapping out Cool Hand for a second Integrated Astromech.

It'd mean no Cool Hand.

Disagreed.

Discouraging people from net listing is good, there exists a fairly good balance in this game where people who have enough cards to do something like crack swarm aren't in a position to win every game because of it.

It creates more diversity by having the cards so sparse. People must adapt net lists to their owned cards.

On the other hand, the epic ship upgrade scheme could probably go. I would love to fly s competitive Darth Vader, but I ain't buying s raider. Hey, that rhymes.

There is no excuse for not swapping out Cool Hand for a second Integrated Astromech.

It'd mean no Cool Hand.

Cool Hand... someday we'll see this card used. Tomax Bren will be able to have some fun with it as a support shuttle, but until then... I mean, why not take Crack Shot instead?

Best I can figure is you could potentially line up a really nasty double modified shot on someone out of a red maneuver if combined with Targeting Astromech. But hey, the ship that could do that best can't take an EPT and Targeting Astro... because I'd love to load out a cheap Y-Wing with extra munitions and some torpedoes and let him blast away. Maybe...

Red Squadron Veteran

Cool Hand

Targeting Astromech

Integrated Astromech

That's an acceptable 29 points. Could be bumped up to 32 points to throw on some Plasma Torpedoes if you'd like and possibly exchange the IA for Chips. Maybe Scum with Zuckuss crew could get some mileage out of it? Except I don't think you'd be able to use the Focus token on the same attack that you used Zuckuss, yeah?

HWKs with EPTs, maybe? Hell if I know.

**** it, we want blind booster packs and we want them now!

Just kidding, but it is a compromise business-wise ffg has made: we know what we are buying, but we have to buy it with all this stuff we probably dont need. If life was fair we should be able to buy everything seperate. But we cant.

Would it be more classy to put two IA in the package when they know the t65 is an underachiever?

Probably

Can they always determine what a 'real' fix is and how it works out in the meta?

Probably not

Perhaps we as a community see it as a fix, but FFG sees it as just another upgrade.

For the future I think it would be very classy and cool to sell some loose packages with populair upgrade cards in them. But I doubt it will happen.

I thought such a Red Squadron Vet could be pretty deadly with an APT. After a red maneuver, you end up with a target lock and focus.

@squark

I intended no deception, not even reading through my post for a tenth time can I figure out what your referring to. But we can discuss it a bit if you'd like.

Firstly establishing that the 65 was actually doing fine, and showed few signs of faltering right up to the phantom menace days, there were two in Heavers list at worlds the year before that after all, and win the final against the benchmark. Even then it could be argued it wasn't as point efficient as the B-wing which again Heaver was using in the same list. So it can be reasonably concluded that something happened that advanced the power level of the overall game that forced them out of viability. I'd wager it was the phantom followed by Dash that nixed then myself.

Okay, my apologies. I misinterpreted your post, since it sounded like you were already aware of the T-65's problems. Look at the math. The T-65 was inefficient out of the gate. It wasn't the Phantom or Dash that killed it, it was the release of jousters that could actually compete with the Tie Fighter (The B-wing, Z-95, and Chardann Refit A-wing*). However, this isn't power creep. Releasing more powerful ships would only be power creep if the T-65 was already at the efficiency point.

*Yes, a 15 point prototype pilot is a better jouster than the pre-IA X-wing.

As to the usability of errata updates to game content, it does work. Hell the game as it stands, being completely realistic, has at least a few erratas already, like the functional changes for Experimental Interface that actually makes it work, or the timing change to cloaking. And with the advent of smart phones allowing you to access the errata at a moment's notice, download it for future reference, or print it out, it's actually super easy. Wizards has been using the Oracle card database to keep track of their massive card library with all the errata text included and even a comments section. But whether it is difficult or not is a fairly subjective argument. Agree to disagree?

I think you're mistaken. Wizards doesn't errata cards unless the card doesn't work as intended anymore due to rule changes (And this is only really the case with old cards that were created prior to WOTC developing a standard language for how cards work, or when mechanics get named, i.e. "dies" and "fights")- Which is the same as how FFG changed Daredevil (which didn't give out a stress at the time like it was supposed to). Tactician was a bit different, but was still in the spirit of the original card, and was probably future-proofing for future ships with auxiliary firing arcs. The cloak change, on the other hand, was a change to the official rules in the FAQ- The reference card in the phantom expansion wasn't technically an official source.

Finally, I do have to disagree that keeping up with internet-based errata is universally easy. It's easy enough for you judging by your post, and would actually be pretty easy for me, but it's easy to forget that cell and internet coverage is a lot worse for people off the beaten path- And for those people, having to look up a site to double check the point cost of an upgrade card might actually be fairly difficult if their internet isn't cooperating.

----------------------------------------------------

Why did the T-70 expansion come with Cool Hand and Advanced Proton Torpedoes? So new players would have access to multiple types of torpedoes and epts. Remember, the TFA core set comes with only a single EPT for three ships. I suppose crack shot might have been a better choice just to increase circulation of such an important card, but perhaps FFG has plans for cool hand in a future wave. As for Advanced Proton Torpedoes, FFG seems to feel that every small expansion should include at least one upgrade for each type of slot the ship in it has (With the EPT occasionally getting cut in the case of the HWK and Phantom which needed a diverse selection of other upgrades)

No body cares, but it or don't. If you don't like it then proxy it.

Perhaps we as a community see it as a fix, but FFG sees it as just another upgrade.

Alex and/or Frank said that it wasn't 'the fix' for the X-Wing. While yes I'd like more I'd like more of most every card I get... Expect for proton torpedos. Those I have plenty of.

Look at the math. The T-65 was inefficient out of the gate.

Yeah the X-Wing was never on par with the Tie Fighter, but it worked in Wave 1 because the only other choice was the Y-Wing. It never had much going for it other than a few pilots who were so good they could somewhat overcome the issues with the ship itself.

Finally, I do have to disagree that keeping up with internet-based errata is universally easy.

Myself while I have a phone and tablet... If I had to use them during the game because that was the only way to keep track of the errata, I don't think I'd still be here. Errata to fix something that is broken is fine. But making balance updates? No that's just a nightmare waiting to happen.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

Blister size. FFG does do doubles in the larger blisters like the Mist Hunter (x2 Adaptability), K-wing (x2 Twin Laser Turret) and StarViper (x2 Autothrusters), and the large ships almost always have doubles. Guidance Chips appears in both the TIE/v1 and the Punishing One (which has two).

As for the TIE/fo, it has two cards because it has six pilots. Same with the TIE fighter and TIE interceptor blisters.

The size of the blisters is not the problem. The swedish translated expansions for the vanilla Ties, Xs and Ys come with swedish AND finnish cardboards and cards. Double amount of cardboard and card stuff! Blisters the same size as the english variants.

So its a decision made by FFG.

Why not produce a card pack blister for each wave? Just like the LCG model.

Double post.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

Blister size. FFG does do doubles in the larger blisters like the Mist Hunter (x2 Adaptability), K-wing (x2 Twin Laser Turret) and StarViper (x2 Autothrusters), and the large ships almost always have doubles. Guidance Chips appears in both the TIE/v1 and the Punishing One (which has two).

As for the TIE/fo, it has two cards because it has six pilots. Same with the TIE fighter and TIE interceptor blisters.

The size of the blisters is not the problem. The swedish translated expansions for the vanilla Ties, Xs and Ys come with swedish AND finnish cardboards and cards. Double amount of cardboard and card stuff! Blisters the same size as the english variants.

So its a decision made by FFG.

But is it a decision made "by" them or "for" them due to manufacturing constraints?

I'm not sure if FFG has ever given away an uncut sheet of cards but it would be interesting to see one. With only so much print space on a sheet, there could be actual issues with adding one more card into a wave because there is just not room on the sheet without removing an existing card.

As an aside, when you say "cardboard", do you mean you get doubles of the base chits too? I never really thought about there needing to be language changes on those as well.

Why not produce a card pack blister for each wave? Just like the LCG model.

AFAIK there's some licensing issues with putting out card only packs.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

E-bay... Never buy a model you don't want again.

I would prefer to support my LGS. My problem is less with only one card in a blister than it is having upgrades that help ships not available in every faction after a certain number of waves past the original release, or only having them in huge ships.

Being a mainly imperial player, I for sure won't buy anymore T-70s. 1 Core + 1 Exp is enough for me. Luckily I'm not interested in builds that require more than 1 IA yet. If rebel veterans ever got released then I'll revisit the above statement.

They hust have had to put IA and AT also in the new core set...

(...)The swedish translated expansions for the vanilla Ties, Xs and Ys come with swedish AND finnish cardboards and cards. Double amount of cardboard and card stuff!(...)

(...)

As an aside, when you say "cardboard", do you mean you get doubles of the base chits too? I never really thought about there needing to be language changes on those as well.

Words like Rookie & Academy Pilot are translated. Unique pilot names are if course the same.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

i bet one or two will come in rebel veterans

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

i bet one or two will come in rebel veterans

On the other hand I bought 5 T70s because I wanted to try out weapons guidance on some Tie FOs. I figure that now all my buddies at the Game Shop can get Poe repaints for tournaments.

But really... don't be daft. If you are in a place that requires the card, suck it up and buy it. If you are in a place with people that are ok with you proxying, then proxy away.