Putting Wired as the third card in the TIE/FO blister (or the T-70 blister) would make a lot of sense, it is the only non-unique upgrade that is limited to a core set.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

Blister size. FFG does do doubles in the larger blisters like the Mist Hunter (x2 Adaptability), K-wing (x2 Twin Laser Turret) and StarViper (x2 Autothrusters), and the large ships almost always have doubles. Guidance Chips appears in both the TIE/v1 and the Punishing One (which has two).

As for the TIE/fo, it has two cards because it has six pilots. Same with the TIE fighter and TIE interceptor blisters.

The only move that FFG made that bothered me was the Tie Advanced fix packed in a 100$ Huge Ship expension. It's always a hard sell when you need to explain to new players that to optimize their brand new Tie Advanced in a tournament, they have to buy this huge ship that they might not need because they don't care about Epic.

As for the Integrated Astromech, I would have prefered a second copy in the pack instead of yet another Advanced Proton Torpedoes that I'll never use, but since I'm pretty sure that 1 or 2 copy will come with the X-Wing fix, I don't really care... but I bought 3 T-70 pack so, unless I plan to run 4 T-70 in a tournament, I don't really need a 4th copy anyway.

I don't think anyone here has said it's a fantastic business model for player support, but it is their model, like it or hate it. I enjoyed Games Workshop games many many years ago, but they turned from a hobby company into a business that does games and now they are suffering for it. I wish FFG would have upgrade boosters, ie have EPT or System Upgrade packs with 10 or so cards in them, not random so the purchaser knows what they are getting. They may lose miniature sales but they would probably get a lot of more people forking out the cash for upgrades they want/need rather than ships they would never use. I love the Defender model, but for a few more points I can get Boba, doesnt make a lot of sense. This goes for the Raider too, ATC is a must on the TIE Advanced, but it is only available in a ship that costs well over 100 dollars, puts people off.

I would point out that it is more a problem that they power crept the game enough that the wave zero ship needed a fix in the first place. It was doing fine for awhile there. And yes I realize that the TIE Swarm was their benchmark. But as a design critic, my critique would be that it is stupid for them to say we won't do errata, when it is the healthiest choice, and going with work around fixes blows up in their face consistently anyway.

If you aren't playing in a tournament it really doesn't matter. Just use the upgrades you want with the rules from your favorite squadron builder. Complete non issue. Christian T Peterson isn't going to show up riding a flying monkey and hex your family.

If you are playing in a tournament, I have little sympathy. I can't think of a single wargame that is inexpensive if you want to play on the bleeding edge in a competitive event. Either pony up(its really not THAT expensive) or borrow cards from your friends who aren't going or using different cards.

I get where you are coming from, but if you are a casual gamer, then it shouldn't matter. You will get it in this package and in the next wave or so, there will be another ship that has it and you will have access to it there, most likely on another faction. If you are a competitive gamer, then it shouldn't matter too much. You likely have already tested out the build you want to take to Store Championship, Regionals, Nationals or Worlds and are going to buy exactly the ships and cards you need (if you don't already have them all).

As this is not a fix, then it should not have multiple copies in a box. Fixes are released in larger boxes (Aces, Veterans, Epic) and have multiple cards. This is an upgrade, just like Autothrusters. Which, had the same outcry and we still expect the same model... that it will be released in another faction in the next wave or two.

So, I guess the question is, which kind of gamer are you? And can your expense account handle that level of committment. And frankly, if you are upset about cost, there are MUCH more expensive hobbies to be involved in with companies that do not have superior customer service. Forums excepted, FFG does a pretty good job in pacing and balance!

You are talking about minis wargames, am I OK ? A "wargame" is usually a.boxed set with no.or little upgrades. If you play The Speed of Heat, Air Force, A bridge too far, etc, no extra options to buy. Games like 40k, Hordes, etc, are another world

you guys are getting pretty butt hurt over nothing...

if they sold the ship in one pack and then an ACTUALLY vital piece such as base chits or pilot cards in another pack then i'd be really upset! however, upgrades cards are choices... sure, IA is good for t65s but, you can fly them without - they aren't essential in any way whatsoever....

I would point out that it is more a problem that they power crept the game enough that the wave zero ship needed a fix in the first place. It was doing fine for awhile there. And yes I realize that the TIE Swarm was their benchmark. But as a design critic, my critique would be that it is stupid for them to say we won't do errata, when it is the healthiest choice, and going with work around fixes blows up in their face consistently anyway.

Also, putting a disclaimer after you misuse the word power creep is... Either willfully deceptive or a sign you really don't understand the word (Sorry if that comes off harsh, but saying you know you're using a negatively charged word wrong but doing so anyway is blatant sophistry). Power Creep occurs when newly released options force a shift in the overall balance. The T-65 was underpowered on release. Fixing it is not power creep.

So, the IA upgrade is a fix? or not ?

Really it does not matter. Diferent opinions are good, and of course there are diferent game experiences. Some people come from MTG or L5R backgrounds, original cards are important for them. Other people is more demandind on fine quality models, or balanced scenarios, etc. Or perhaps you only want to play VASSAL and this is a stupid topic.

But perhaps after IA, Chimps, future T 65 fix...the time for X wing 2.0 is coming

Generally I just see this stuff as Competitive Play Tax. If I'm playing casually I don't know anyone who worries about proxies, some people will print out their own cards for testing out. So yeah, annoying and a barrier to entry, but is only really noticeable because the barrier to entry is so very low for X-Wing anyway.

The only move that FFG made that bothered me was the Tie Advanced fix packed in a 100$ Huge Ship expension. It's always a hard sell when you need to explain to new players that to optimize their brand new Tie Advanced in a tournament, they have to buy this huge ship that they might not need because they don't care about Epic.

Isn't that like the whole sales strategy for Epic ships?

Buy this ship you will almost never get to play (epic never seems to have taken off anywhere), get awesome cards for standard play (R3-A2, R5-P9, R2-D2 crew, C-3P0, Palatine, Advanced fix)

you guys are getting pretty butt hurt over nothing...

if they sold the ship in one pack and then an ACTUALLY vital piece such as base chits or pilot cards in another pack then i'd be really upset! however, upgrades cards are choices... sure, IA is good for t65s but, you can fly them without - they aren't essential in any way whatsoever....

That's why I said that the only time it bothered me was with the Tie Advanced fix packed with the Raider.

Sure, you have the choice to run your Advanced without it, but why would you except if you don't have the card available? No matter how you build your Advanced or which pilot you take, it will always be better with the title, without exception. It's not like the title was in a spot competing with another one, it's the only one available and it cost 0 point. In my book, that's pretty close to essential.

you guys are getting pretty butt hurt over nothing...

if they sold the ship in one pack and then an ACTUALLY vital piece such as base chits or pilot cards in another pack then i'd be really upset! however, upgrades cards are choices... sure, IA is good for t65s but, you can fly them without - they aren't essential in any way whatsoever....

That's why I said that the only time it bothered me was with the Tie Advanced fix packed with the Raider.

Sure, you have the choice to run your Advanced without it, but why would you except if you don't have the card available? No matter how you build your Advanced or which pilot you take, it will always be better with the title, without exception. It's not like the title was in a spot competing with another one, it's the only one available and it cost 0 point. In my book, that's pretty close to essential.

But even that isn't 'vital' - you can fly the ship without the title... Competitively, it may be neutered but it sure isnt vital...

The only move that FFG made that bothered me was the Tie Advanced fix packed in a 100$ Huge Ship expension. It's always a hard sell when you need to explain to new players that to optimize their brand new Tie Advanced in a tournament, they have to buy this huge ship that they might not need because they don't care about Epic.

Isn't that like the whole sales strategy for Epic ships?

Buy this ship you will almost never get to play (epic never seems to have taken off anywhere), get awesome cards for standard play (R3-A2, R5-P9, R2-D2 crew, C-3P0, Palatine, Advanced fix)

And I'm okay with all the others, because they are not fixing a ship. They are not auto-include like the Tie Advanced title is. Great options, but not must have like the Advanced title. As it is now, if you don't own a Raider, just don't bother running a Tie Advanced.

I personally think that they should have leave the upgrade for standard play out of the Epic ship, but that's only my opinion.

As for Epic play, we play once or twice a month around here. It's a great format.

Generally I just see this stuff as Competitive Play Tax. If I'm playing casually I don't know anyone who worries about proxies, some people will print out their own cards for testing out. So yeah, annoying and a barrier to entry, but is only really noticeable because the barrier to entry is so very low for X-Wing anyway.

It's interesting; my experience is somewhere in between. Very casual and new players will tend to play exclusively with what they currently own. More experienced players are the ones who are more likely to be willing to print lists from the builder or proxy to test things out before buying.

It's why my favourite piece of advice for new players is 'borrow some stuff, print some lists off the builder, and try stuff out before you play; better that way than buyign stuff you don't enjoy'.

you guys are getting pretty butt hurt over nothing...

if they sold the ship in one pack and then an ACTUALLY vital piece such as base chits or pilot cards in another pack then i'd be really upset! however, upgrades cards are choices... sure, IA is good for t65s but, you can fly them without - they aren't essential in any way whatsoever....

That's why I said that the only time it bothered me was with the Tie Advanced fix packed with the Raider.

Sure, you have the choice to run your Advanced without it, but why would you except if you don't have the card available? No matter how you build your Advanced or which pilot you take, it will always be better with the title, without exception. It's not like the title was in a spot competing with another one, it's the only one available and it cost 0 point. In my book, that's pretty close to essential.

But even that isn't 'vital' - you can fly the ship without the title... Competitively, it may be neutered but it sure isnt vital...

True. And you can take Soontir in a tournament without any EPT. But why would you? Better to just take another pilot or ship. Just like an Advanced without the title now. You can take an Advanced without the title. But why would you? It will be even worst when the Tie Advanced prototype come out.

But if you are okay with running a Tie Advanced without the title to your next tournament, be my guest.

It is not about money, number of waves or related. It is about vital upgrade cards. Example : Integrated Astromech

Cost 0 upgrade quite critical to x wings. Something to fix it a little ok. You must buy T 70 blisters, Ok. It is a x wing fix in a x wing blister.

You open it and...ONE CARD. ONE. Perhaps you own many T 65, plus at least one T 70. Or more. And you buy a ship with ONE fix card. As I say very often, buy ships, not cards. But this is a little joke. Here your little fix. One per blister.

And the Tie / FO comes with TWO upgrade cards. Ohhhh man. Don't kid me.

E-bay... Never buy a model you don't want again.

People being condescending about people having issues with FFG's business model is part what drove me away from this community. Yes, it's a luxury model but other companies, e.g. Wyrd, which also releases fixes for their models in the forum of upgrades, manage to do it in a way more friendly way to their customers. Snarking at people for having legitimate grievances with the business model is not the right way to go. (Like, please, defend the Tie Advanced fix, it'd cost me 130 euros to get the Raider at the LGS here, for a ship I don't even care about just to get the fix. I can have a full malifaux crew for that price. And don't mention secondary market since having to go to the secondary market by itself shows that there's something wrong with the business model. )

Look, even I would've liked to see another copy of IA in the T-70 pack. Best case scenario is I'm able to fly more X-Wings sooner without proxying/borrowing more cards. At the very least it would cut out complaint threads like these. (Make no mistake, however: people would just find something else to complain about.) I'll admit I have no idea how Wyrd does its thing, nor do I care. Fact is, there are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many viable builds in X-Wing miniatures, that not being able to fly one ship at the highest tiers just yet* is a pretty minor gripe.

*Again, it'll be reprinted. Patience, young padawaans.

Too many "o" to my taste. Sarcasm is a blunt weapon, not an argument. One hundred "o" does not add weight to an argument.

Complaint thread ??? Yeah, sure. 100%

Proxy? For tournaments borrow from friends?.

They are just cards, and I assume you play with others since its not a solo game my guess is someone you play with gas extra copies of any card you need for official tournaments.

Too many "o" to my taste. Sarcasm is a blunt weapon, not an argument. One hundred "o" does not add weight to an argument.

Complaint thread ??? Yeah, sure. 100%

People being condescending about people having issues with FFG's business model is part what drove me away from this community. Yes, it's a luxury model but other companies, e.g. Wyrd, which also releases fixes for their models in the forum of upgrades, manage to do it in a way more friendly way to their customers. Snarking at people for having legitimate grievances with the business model is not the right way to go. (Like, please, defend the Tie Advanced fix, it'd cost me 130 euros to get the Raider at the LGS here, for a ship I don't even care about just to get the fix. I can have a full malifaux crew for that price. And don't mention secondary market since having to go to the secondary market by itself shows that there's something wrong with the business model. )

Look, even I would've liked to see another copy of IA in the T-70 pack. Best case scenario is I'm able to fly more X-Wings sooner without proxying/borrowing more cards. At the very least it would cut out complaint threads like these. (Make no mistake, however: people would just find something else to complain about.) I'll admit I have no idea how Wyrd does its thing, nor do I care. Fact is, there are so many viable builds in X-Wing miniatures, that not being able to fly one ship at the highest tiers just yet* is a pretty minor gripe.

*Again, it'll be reprinted. Patience, young padawaans.

OK, then what do you have to say about the argument now?

Too many "o" to my taste. Sarcasm is a blunt weapon, not an argument. One hundred "o" does not add weight to an argument.

Complaint thread ??? Yeah, sure. 100%

It was 149 "o".

I have to say, I'm a little saddened that if I want to get more copies of Juke/Comms Relay I'll probably need to buy more TIE/Fos. I got two TFA Cores and one TIE/Fo expansion, so I'm really about as rich in the little buggers as I could ever really want. With Wave 8 where it is and me not being the richest X-Wing player, it's tough to justify that purchase. I guess maybe if I knew how to sell off the bits I don't want and get some of my cash back, but who the heck is going to want TIE/Fos without any of the upgrades they come with? (Seriously, if you know, let me know!)

But I'll survive. I'll get my cards eventually and can proxy until then.

Still, Sensor Jammer carrier and three Jukin' Fos: I really want to run this.