No, I won my first Armada game by plowing VSDs into an AFMK II Rebel Flagship, the **** thing had Mon Mothma & Advanced Projectors. The thing was shrugging of my non XI7 shots, so I rammed it with 2 VSDs. Imps, with actual military grade vessels, are going to be better structurally. It is yet another weapon in the game. Changing it now would cause serious balance issues.

There you have it. "It worked for me, don't change it." Seriously, Gamey **** is Gamey ****. So what if it works ...it is ridiculous as all get out. If you can't find another way to win...hmmm, too bad to bad, so sad.

Hey!

Don't Push your politics on me, pal!

Old grognards are best seen lurking in the basements of your LGS, not heard. I know, I AM one, but I maintain my youthful approach to life with a steady helping of bourbon!

Except that small ships dont expose themselves to the full arnament of a large ship at close quarters. In effect they can both do about the same amount of damage to each other.

Clearly, you've never driven a Corvette into the gaping maw of a Star Destroyer. Spoiler alert: the Corvette was dead the whole time.

Aah, that's what he meant? That a small ship ramming a large ship isn't likely to be in both arcs, which isn't true the other way around?

Aah, that's what he meant? That a small ship ramming a large ship isn't likely to be in both arcs, which isn't true the other way around?

Speak for yourself - yesterday I parked an ISD in the forward arc of a Gladiator, dodging both side arcs. Was particularly proud about that one.

Aah, that's what he meant? That a small ship ramming a large ship isn't likely to be in both arcs, which isn't true the other way around?

Speak for yourself - yesterday I parked an ISD in the forward arc of a Gladiator, dodging both side arcs. Was particularly proud about that one.

But surely not within one movement distance?

I saw leave it as it is.

It's not perfect as (as has been mentioned) this is a 2D game version of a 3D environment.

My own thoughts:

1. It has relatively simple rules at the moment
2. To make it work (especially with a swarm) takes planing and careful maneuvering - which is what a lot of the game is actually about
3. It's quite cinematic

Were you to replace it with something that tried to represent a glancing blow, you could end up with other "gamey" mechanics available. The first one that comes to mind is where to position the ships after a collision?

At the moment you leave them where they stop based on a temporary speed drop (which is sort of representing a glancing hit) and then they move off again when they can.

Or, you could allow one ship to "pop" out on the other side of the base of the ship that it is ramming so it can continue it's move. On the face of it this sounds good, but it would grant free movement to the ramming ship - that could be very beneficial when ramming ships on large bases.

If you really wanted to modify the rules though, maybe limit the number of damage cards per turn - e.g. ships hit once and then move off?

Any alternative to the current rules wouldn't work. If you have the ramming ship "pop through", it gives a painfully unfair advantage to fast ships. I take Insidious with Engine Techs, you take an ISD. Turn one I fly forward at speed three. You fire your red dice and move forward. Then I fly at speed three, pop engine techs, ram you and pop out the back. Now I'm throwing black dice up your butt until you die, only suffering a single barrage of four red dice and one face down damage card. Now multiply that into three Corvettes. No maneuvering. No strategy. No planning. Just fly your fast ships straight forward, ram, slam the brakes and stay behind the big ships until they die. They also gain the length of an entire large base to their movement, even if they barely clipped it. And how to you decide where they end up? Straight line? As close as they could come to their approximate maneuver ending? Line the short side of the base to the short side of the opponent's brace? What if, in the example above, I ram your ISD with two Corvettes. The first one goes through and stops base-to-base with the ISD. Then I ram again. Does my second corvette get placed on the far side of the first? So it moves an additional large AND small base. Do I ram both? Does the Corvette take two damage for ramming two ships?

Also, Nelson, please grumble somewhere else. Your implication that anyone under the age of 35 can't tell a good game from a bad one is incorrect, divisive and just plain ****-ish. Almost every conversation I've seen on these boards have been civil, but you seem to always come in with a grumpy, divisive opinion. So please, just stop.

A lot of thoughtful responses and some whitty as well.

To the person who complained about the length of my post and the other who complained I didn't clean up my post. True. Unfortunately, I had more than a, "...steady helping of [Gentlemen Jack]" last night so in reading my response again today was surprised I manage something legible at all. Plus managing auto correct when you are drunk is 10 times frustrating and will really through you off your game. So the obvious lesson is don't drink and type...got it, hopefully. Someone attach a breathalyzer feature to the next version of the iPad. To the other who said, "The world looks looks better from bed" you are especially right considering my piercing, behind the eyeball, that serves you right, headache.

I did like the comment that I should learn to fly better. To the other mentioning I should just house rule it since I play at higher points anyway, I will eventually--just haven't gotten around to it. I'll wait for everyone to be on the same page with the rules before adding something. Too many people in my area don't even understand all the rules yet. I finally spent almost half a day reading the rules message board and asking some pros a few last remaining questions. I found three I was getting wrong and got final verdict/confirmation on rules I was attempting to tell others they were getting wrong.

Hey, if you like the rule cool. I was asked to explain why I thought it was gamey and I thought I did. I'll take one last stab at explaining why I think it is "gamey" and why out of all the abstract rules it is the only one that bothers me at all. Not even the silly abstract space station rule bothers me because it doesn't interfere with the most fundamental and important aspect of the game: navigation.

1. Ships would glance off each other 95% of the time.

2. While I understand the need for simplicity, I believe a reasonable solution exists to represent the glancing collision while still causing damage (remaining a viable and important tactic) that would still be simple. I do like the idea of the damage being proportional to the size of the ship. Even if nothing else was changed, adding one extra damage for each size class of ship above you would be both easy and realistic. A corvette hitting a VSD would get two damage and 3 if it hit an ISD.

3. Ships are often held in place for two to three rounds when they collide and collisions causing something in game terms to come to a dead stop just doesn't feel right to me. It feels gamey. To me it feels and looks silly. I don't like traffic jams in what is a supposed 3D environment. Yes it happened in the movie, but that is because it make great theatrics. If you feel the current ramming rules offers great fun worth more than maintaining the flowing movement of ships, then I understand if you like the sacrifice. It can, and does, offer some intense game moments so I understand where you are coming from.

4. Yes, the abstract rules of the space station et al are extremely abstract. The collision of ships is the only rules issue I have issue with because in my opinion it causes massive traffic jams where fast moving objects just stop too many times in 3D space. The other day I had my ISD and VSD1 flanking the front arc of an MC80 to where there was just enough space for it to get by going perfectly forward. I activated my Raider first and came up and closed the hole/gap. The MC80 was stuck between the front arc of my three ships and got rammed and shot to death all because it couldn't push a Raider out of the way or glance off of it either by shear force. It was suspending in space until removed from the board. Was I proud of the tactic? Yes. Do I think the game would be better off without such tactics? yes.

5. Sounds like most people like it the way it is. Great. Seems you like the drama it brings to the table or believe there is not a simpiliar way. However, it would be nice if FF flight play tested an optional rule for those who don't like it. A lot of games produce optional rules to either add realism or make the game play faster in spite of realism. I honestly think there is an easy solution involving placing the ramming ship at the same angle it approached touching the nearest corner allowing it to clear. Someone mentioned that this might in itself prove gamey.... Possibly! Having not played it, I can't honestly say it wouldn't be. However, my gut says that the extra movement gained is a price I would be willing to overlook if it meant that ships would no longer be halted to the equivalent of a dead stop.

Cheers

Real friends don't let friends drink and post.

My largest agreement is on your third point. I agree that traffic jams are probably the most annoying aspect of the current set of rules. However, I am willing to accept it as a least of all evils. I am curious if anyone else has home-ruled the collision system, but frankly, if it never gets changed, it will not be a deal-breaker for me.

My home rule is say a ISD shoots then jump in front of the mc80. Both mc 80 and ISD take a dmg card. On the mc80 turn if it cant clear the ISD both ships take dmg.then depending on the ships speed and angle their given just the little bit extre needed to clear the other ship or brought along broadside it.

So smaller ships will general pop out the other side.

,

Clearly, you've never driven a Corvette into the gaping maw of a Star Destroyer. Spoiler alert: the Corvette was dead the whole time.

You do have to question the star destroyers captain who chose to shoot long range at a frigate rather than take out the corvette....

The current way ramming is implemented + the lack of any boarding actions are the weakest aspects of armada imho. I would personally like to see ramming changed/tweaked into something more interesting. Small ships taking 2 damage from ramming larger ships would go a long way, plus a way for ships to spend an evade token to, well, evade a ram. Not everything needs to be streamlined into abstraction.

I can't help but notice that your proposed rule changes are also abstractions. I'm pretty sure that every facet of this game requires some level of abstraction. The game is not intended to accurately simulate the reality of commanding a space fleet locked in battle with another space fleet. Can you imagine the actual work that would go into commanding even one corvette? Much less a fleet of them and larger ships? Abstraction is every part of this game, because it has to be.

The current way ramming is implemented + the lack of any boarding actions are the weakest aspects of armada imho. I would personally like to see ramming changed/tweaked into something more interesting. Small ships taking 2 damage from ramming larger ships would go a long way, plus a way for ships to spend an evade token to, well, evade a ram. Not everything needs to be streamlined into abstraction.

I mean if it really bothers you that much that the ships take equal amounts of damage, why not use a house rule like...

"(blah blah blah when overlapping, blah blah blah) each ship involved in the overlap rolls a number of black dice equal to its size (1 for small, 2 for medium, 3 for large). Apply these results directly against the opposing ship's hull. Criticals count as damage and if at least one critical is rolled, the first damage card will be face up."

Certainly makes the maneuver a lot more damaging for small ships to do and makes conga lines a bit better (because the fast ships that can stop it just get wiped), but if it makes you happy then go on ahead and use it. I know I wouldn't, but there's apparently a need for some people?

_{Snip- wouldn't it depend on the size of what you are hitting. If a CR90 hits/is hit by a ISD- surely the CR90 would take the more catastrophic damage, while the ISD would take meh damage .....}

_{Again the two dimensionality of the rules (and the "space" that each ship takes) is the disfunction. When the rules reward ramming tactics (or a ramming fleet), then the rules have gone off the rail.}

_{Like the idea I can ram an A-wing into a super star destroyer and kill it. Wait!...that has been done.....}

I like the house rule idea of bigger ships just pushing the smaller one out of the way. Just slide the ship to the end of its movement and the smaller ship just goes from where ever it ends up from the push. seen sea going ships do just that when they run into each other. most damage is done to the crew of the smaller ship by being slammed into bulkheads a 25+ knots

_{Snip- wouldn't it depend on the size of what you are hitting. If a CR90 hits/is hit by a ISD- surely the CR90 would take the more catastrophic damage, while the ISD would take meh damage .....}

It would. The results are applied against the opposing ship.

I still prefer the base rules of 1 damage card each, but the house rule allows for people who get really bent on the base rule an option.

A more interesting one would be a die roll (pick a color): blank=nothing, accuracy=shield damage, critical=damage card, a double hit= face up damage card.

To intentionally ram would require a maneuver command, otherwise it would just be a glancing blow or one hit to the smaller of the two ships.

Again- ramming in space is silly- these are spaceships not galleys!

Ramming allows the Vic 1 a chance to really deliver a solid beat down...I put an IMP 2 to ground by ramming it with two VSD's keeping it locked in allowed me to hurt it with my squadrons and my ships to the point of killing it.

As much as it irks me the thought of ramming each other in space, there really is no simple solution to change it, so it is what it is.

Otherwise you would need a whole section on ramming on purpose, covering how it works, how ship sizes effect the ram, how speed effects the ram, a specific order to complete a ram maneuver, a counter order to evade a ram maneuver it would be a real headache.

So they picked the cleanest solution, collisions happen if you cannot move sufficiently to clear a ship base, elegant and simple.

Again- ramming in space is silly- these are spaceships not galleys!

From a strict realism perspective, every single rule in this game is silly. Ships can only activate squadrons at medium range? That's like a mile. I can go to Walmart right now and buy walkie talkies that can outrange Armada comm technology, apparently.

I've mentioned the absurdity of asteroid belts already.

The rules are simplified to make a relatively simple, fun game. Not a realistic space commander experience.

Plus, I'm sure ramming rules were made the way they were to add depth of strategy - it's another tool to use or mistake to exploit.

So they picked the cleanest solution, collisions happen if you cannot move sufficiently to clear a ship base, elegant and simple.

Move back one speed tick until you don't overlap, boom, simple.

Did someone get Rieekan'd by Triple Engine Tech'd CR90B's!?! The End of many an ISD

Double Arc and double ram each ... ouch!

That is the other thing that is questionable for me, Engine Techs...is just an extension of your maneuver, basically boosting engine performance to get some extra distance, using them to trigger a double ram. I'd be much happier if the Engine Tech maneuver was added to the check to see if you can make it past a ship or not.

But I ain't going to send a big letter to FFG suggesting it, it is not something I'd do with my own ships, but it is is perfectly within the rules as written.

Reducing ships to 2d planes

Ships bypass each other fine, it's only when the models would actually land on one another that collision actually takes place. As an abstraction, this is could be considered to be nav teams being incapable of countering their momentum as the chaos of battle muddies everything around them and that enemy ship makes a move they hadn't anticipated/didn't think they'd do, which leads to a collision. As for 'glancing off' one another, that's debatable, as it really depends on angles, and wouldn't necessarily be without structural damage: as they fire at each other, they'd create holes and such that could quite easily catch and tear.

So really, while it could be modified, I do think that changing it would lessen the impression of old world naval style that the game (and somewhat the universe in general) seems to want to utilise.

I blocked a VSD with my Neb B rather than give up my flank. I didn't have the speed to jump over so got ground to death. I thought it was great, the bigger ship won and it only lasted two turns.

I say leave it as is... but if I was to change anything, it would be to stack obstructions.

Naboobo2000

I swear. . M I put my picture of Michael Jackson eating popcorn somewhere around here. . .

So my thoughts. Leave well enough alone.

Ramming helps balance the Rebels current play of the conga line, it can punish a player it can save a player.

I had a player Park his Gladiator in front of his ISD to keep the ISD on the board. Freaking ingenious!