Weird idea: what about randomizing the MoV scored for a Bye? Just roll d%.

This would have been a really good idea when MoV influenced pairings within tiers, but now it's just interesting.

Thoughts, hopefully aside from the yawn-worthy "randomness is always bad, mmm-kay"?

Considering that MoV is for tiebreakers, very bad.

What exactly are you gaining from the change? I'm just confused as to the reasoning or purpose the spurred on the suggestion.

Thoughts, hopefully aside from the yawn-worthy "randomness is always bad, mmm-kay"?

"The truth is boring, so please don't mention it to me."

What exactly are you gaining from the change? I'm just confused as to the reasoning or purpose the spurred on the suggestion.

150 MoV is arbitrary anyway, and to some extent a punishment (potential, anyway) to the player who gets the Bye. Why not leave the reward or punishment to the Force?

Before random MoV pairings, it would have avoided the problem (e.g., at Regionals) of all the Byes playing each other in Round 2. Man, did that suck. (But again, not an issue any longer.)

Considering that MoV is for tiebreakers, very bad.

I don't see how that follows. Can you explain?

MoV often decides who goes into top cut and who doesnt. How could you randomize such thing?

So, round 1 you roll one and you're probably out of the cut if you lose a single game? No thanks.

What exactly are you gaining from the change? I'm just confused as to the reasoning or purpose the spurred on the suggestion.

150 MoV is arbitrary anyway, and to some extent a punishment (potential, anyway) to the player who gets the Bye. Why not leave the reward or punishment to the Force?

Before random MoV pairings, it would have avoided the problem (e.g., at Regionals) of all the Byes playing each other in Round 2. Man, did that suck. (But again, not an issue any longer.)

I disagree. While it would have avoided that issue, it would have just gave been trading one problem for another. That initial problem has already been solved by removing MoV from the pairing process entirely.

Assigning a random MoV to byes is untenable. You would absolutely have players making or missing a top cut solely on the basis that thier randomly generated MoV was lower then another players also randomly generated MoV. Why would you ever want to create that situation?

This is just a bad fix, to an already fixed issue.

The only change that would make sense to fix the arbitrary nature of that 150 is to simply have the Bye award no MoV but use your average MoV as a tiebreaker in the end. Take your total MoV and divide it by the games actually played.

Y'all understand that 150 MoV is exactly as arbitrary as a die roll, right? (It's actually 0.5 points less than any win would get you on average, and 6.5 less than a full win -- which a Bye is -- would get you on average.) It is no more, nor less, fair than randomizing.

I suppose you could compromise and just offer the option of the randomized MoV to the Bye player, otherwise awarding 150.

It's TOTALLY less fair. Player X gets 200 points and Y gets 101 just because 1 die roll said so? No, just no. You're assigning players points completely at random.

I would never use an earned bye if that were the case, I'd much rather have skill involved.

150 is not arbitrary. it's exactly what you'd get for winning a game and destroying half the opponent's ships points-wise, which for a bye, is completely fair.

It's important to say bye before you mov away.

What benefit would offering randomised MoV over the standard 150 be? What benefit to the game as a whole would awarding a 200 point MoV be?

If you play a game so well, that you wipe before time with a 100-0 final score, you deserve that 200 MoV. It was hard fought for, and clearly the result of practice and understanding. I walk in at the end of registration and get a first round bye, equivalent in both points and MoV value to your tactical intuition, flying, and decisions, while eating a Snickers and browsing Twitter. Fair?

Randomising it gives no advantage to the player from a base of 150, since it could literally fall either way. All it does is enter an extra layer of needless complexity into a system that works so well because of it's simplicity. A 150 MoV bye exactly the fair middle ground of MoV calculation. Neither too low as to weight the player with the bye as less skillful, nor too high as to punish the bye holder in later rounds. The MoV is literally a player weighting - adding a dice to that is a disservice to the player, regardless of the outcome.

So if it's a "disservice to the player" -- I don't even know what that means -- then there really shouldn't be a problem with allowing a player to choose: randomize or take 150, right? (You're not, you know, anti-freedom, are you!?)

There are already huge decisions made arbitrarily in the rules: I nearly was eliminated from my Store Championship yesterday by the roll of a single red die for initiative. 150 MoV is, itself, an arbitrary number. Random pairings can place a list against its hard counter. And so on.

As far as I can tell, the reaction here is "random-fear," rather than any rational response. That's very common, and thus understandable ... but I'm an optimist, and kinda hoping for more.

It's true that there's no longer a really strong reason to do this -- more astute readers might notice I stipulated that in the OP -- but one thing it would do is let a player make the evaluation. "Does 150 MoV hurt me -- in which case I'll randomize to try to mitigate the damage -- or does 150 MoV help me -- in which case I'll take it."

Sounds like most of y'all think 150 MoV would be a help to you, not a drawback. I honestly don't know where'd I'd come down on it.

(I am bemused by the claim that a 100-0 tabling of an opponent is always "hard fought" and "deserved." That's sometimes true, of course, but (at least as often) a 100-0 victory represents an utter mismatch of some sort. A 12-point win is much more likely to represent a "hard fought" game.)

People already dislike the bye because it can screw you over. This would just make it worse.

See, there's a different between arbitrary and random. Arbitrary would be a number chosen without any purpose. Random is a number which is chosen without the ability to predict it. There's a few problems with random MOV:

1) The 150 rule is not arbitrary. The idea is basically that a 101-point MOV is an incredibly close (modified) win, while 200 MOV is a full-out win. So 150 is chosen as a middle ground. It's not fair to reward a poor player with a free win with max MOV, and it's also not fair to punish a good player with minimum MOV. The median value of 150 is the best compromise.

2) Random MOV introduces randomness that cannot be mitigated by player skill. This is contradictory to the game and creates a negative play experience. X-Wing is fundamentally skill-based; any luck inherent to the game can be reduced via skilled flying and list-building. You are now rewarding or punishing players without regard for their own skill, which is the same reason that people had a problem with Strength of Schedule as a tiebreaker. What's more, you can't pretend you wouldn't be a bit bitter if a random die roll kept you from making the cut, especially if the standard 150 MOV would've let you in.

3) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's nothing wrong with the status quo. It's therefore hard to make an argument for changing it.

So . . . I like the idea of adding a bit of whimsy to a game, but not in this way, and definitely not at a competitive level.

Jeff Wilder,

You're creating a solution to a problem that you stipulate no longer exists and has already been fixed. So on face value your proposed solution is entirely pointless. You yourself said as much.

So what's the benefit from it?

You harp on how just as arbitrary a die roll is compared to the current 150, but that isn't a valid comparison. Even assuming FFG picked 150 out of a hat, which isn't necessarily true at all, that it is simply a consistent score is what's more important. One players SC Bye should not be worth more then another players SC Bye. There is no reason to make those two byes unequal, and that is what you are suggesting.

You would be creating a situation, as I mentioned above an you ignored, in which two players with an equal record are ranked on the basis of a random pre-tournament die roll. Now that die roll wouldn't just be breaking a tie between two players deadlocked on MoV it could very well erase a demonstrable earned advantage that one player actually gained through thier play over another. Under your (revised) suggestion a player could be at a (at least) 50 point disadvantage in MoV for no reason at all. Because there is no reason to introduce a die roll into the situation.

You hinted in your OP that your contribution in this thread would be nothing if not belittling to others who didn't agree with you. That is clearly proving to be the case. I don't know what your issue is so I'll put it plainly.

You're attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist by introducing an uneeded random element that would hurt the competitive integrity of the event by having discernable advantage gained through actual play invalidate by a die roll that serves no purpose.

Not trying to be that guy but.. the op is either a troll or has never really never had much time any many tournaments or something.

A random MoV award for winning with the bye? A terrible idea.

That 150 may seem arbitrary but it is the value for destroying half on a non-existant squadron at no risk to yourself. Good or bad at least you always know what it would be. Ok sure, you miss out on the possibility of picking up a 200 point MoV victory but if that's how you play then what are you worried about? It is beyond stupid to have it be completely random especially when that random value could be fewer points than you might get for a modified win.

If you are looking at it for all of the first round bye awards there is a simple solution it you have one of those and don't want to get 5 points and a 150 point MoV: JUST DON'T USE YOUR BYE and instead play out that first round. If you're so good that you're going to get a win and something greater than 150 points then by all means play it out.

Still no rational responses. Just "random-fear" (and personal insults directed at me, of course).

You've given not a single reason why your idea is a good one. You just keep saying that the current 150 is as arbitrary as a random roll, but you keep ignoring that it is the consistency from Bye to Bye that is of paramount importance.

I'm still trying to sort out your agenda on this one. You usually don't just troll to troll, though maybe you are just more bored tonight for some reason.

Still no rational responses. Just "random-fear" (and personal insults directed at me, of course).

I gave you one already. 150 is right in the middle points-wise. Fair to a person who gets a bye.

Though yeah, you're trolling us now.

Still no rational responses. Just "random-fear" (and personal insults directed at me, of course).

Since you're the one proposing a change to the status quo, why don't you answer some questions:

1. Why is awarding 150 MoV for a bye a problem that needs fixing.

2. Why is a random number that can grant a considerable advantage or disadvantage to a player preferable to a system where all byes are of equal value?

Y'all understand that 150 MoV is exactly as arbitrary as a die roll, right? .

You keep using that word. I do no think it means what you think it means.

I'll bite - why do you think 150 is arbitrary?

Still no rational responses. Just "random-fear" (and personal insults directed at me, of course).

I've yet to see a rational reason why a dice roll is better than the defined midpoint between a win and a loss.

it is the consistency from Bye to Bye that is of paramount importance.

I'm still trying to sort out your agenda on this one. You usually don't just troll to troll, though maybe you are just more bored tonight for some reason.

I don't accept your assertion that "consistency from Bye to Bye is of paramount importance." Can you support the claim? I mean, if consistency is truly of paramount importance, then "150" is really, really arbitrary.

I don't have an agenda. As I said in the OP, I simply think it would be more interesting. And as I developed the idea later in the thread, I also think it would be more interesting to give the player -- who did, at least in some cases, earn the Bye (and I'd be okay with stipulating it only works on an earned Bye) -- the ability to assess his or her strengths and decide whether to risk some of the value of his Bye.

No agenda. Not married to the idea or anything. I just, as I said, think it would be more interesting.