Hey guys, just wanted a quick clarification/definition.

"... may take two strain to upgrade ability of [skill name]..."

What does upgrade mean in this context?

• Add a boost die, or,
• Change a green die to a yellow die (or add a green die if all die are yellow)

Thanks

Second answer. Change green to yellow, or add green if all are yellow.

The word “upgrade” always means to change the color of the dice, regardless of which type of dice it is that you’re upgrading.

So, to upgrade the difficulty of a task, you change a purple die into a red one.

To upgrade a skill rank or ability, you change a green die into a yellow one.

If you don’t have any of the type of dice that would be needed to upgrade, then you add another.

So, if you don’t have any more purple dice left and you still need to upgrade the difficulty, then you add a purple die. If you need to upgrade the difficulty again, then you take that purple die you just added and turn it into a red.

Likewise with upgrading green to yellow.

When you get to five red or five yellows and you still need to upgrade, I think that’s where the rules get a bit wonky and I’d have to go check and reconfirm.

The word “upgrade” always means to change the color of the dice, regardless of which type of dice it is that you’re upgrading.

So, to upgrade the difficulty of a task, you change a purple die into a red one.

To upgrade a skill rank or ability, you change a green die into a yellow one.

If you don’t have any of the type of dice that would be needed to upgrade, then you add another.

So, if you don’t have any more purple dice left and you still need to upgrade the difficulty, then you add a purple die. If you need to upgrade the difficulty again, then you take that purple die you just added and turn it into a red.

Likewise with upgrading green to yellow.

When you get to five red or five yellows and you still need to upgrade, I think that’s where the rules get a bit wonky and I’d have to go check and reconfirm.

Characteristics can get up to 6 anyway, so that's not a problem. And I'm not seeing anything in the book about a hard cap for Skill checks.

Difficulty 5 is Formidable, anything past that is Impossible. Which means either the GM just says "Nope, can't be done" or you have to spend a Destiny point just for the opportunity to roll the Formidable check. So I don't think you would add a 6th die.

There is no cap on upgrades, downgrades of course stop when you hit original base Difficulty.

There is no cap on upgrades, downgrades of course stop when you hit original base Difficulty.

That's not quite what I got out of it.

F&D pg 30 says that as you upgrade a dice pool, you turn all the original Greens and Purples into Yellows and Reds. Then if you run out of dice to upgrade, you add an extra, upgrade that, then add another, etc. So upgrades can introduce more dice to the pool than were there originally.

Downgrades however, only say that they convert the Yellows or Reds down to Greens or Purples. But it doesn't say you get to start taking dice away after that. In fact it says "If all of the potential dice are already in their downgraded form, any further downgrades are ignored."

Then right under that is a section talking about having both Upgrades and Downgrades in the same pool. It says you apply all the Upgrades first, which could potentially add more dice. Then apply Downgrades and tone however many dice down, but not necessarily removing any. So you could have started with Diff 2P, apply 4 Upgrades which would give you 3R, then attempt to apply 4 Downgrades to end with 3P (ignoring 1 Downgrade). You added a die to the pool, but the rules don't say you get to take it back later.

All I said was you can't downgrade below original base Difficulty.

All I said was you can't downgrade below original base Difficulty.

Right, but the truth is you can't downgrade below whatever the Difficulty becomes, regardless of what the base was.

Like my example above, Base 2, with 4 Upgrades and 4 Downgrades. You don't get to take away dice once they've been added. You can only change what kind of die they are.

Base Diff 2 - (P) (P)

Upgrade - ® (P)

Upgrade - ® ®

Upgrade - ® ® (P)

Upgrade - ® ® ®

Downgrade - ® ® (P)

Downgrade - ® (P) (P)

Downgrade - (P) (P) (P)

*Ignore Downgrade*

I was just trying to clarify that Downgrading doesn't subtract dice the same way Upgrading adds dice. Otherwise you could potentially get enough Downgrades in there to erase the pool completely. Like Base 2, 3 Upgrade, 5 Downgrades

Base 2 - (P) (P)

Upgrade - ® (P)

Upgrade - ® ®

Upgrade - ® ® (P)

Downgrade - ® ®

Downgrade - ® (P)

Downgrade - ®

Downgrade - (P)

Downgrade - X

All I'm saying is Upgrades can go on forever, downgrades can't ever make a pool zero, if you got no dice that can be downgraded it stops, that's all I'm saying, that's it, nothing more.

(Points out that the game has specific terminology for removing purple and red dice, where it specifically calls out reducing the difficulty instead of downgrading the difficulty)

That should be U-P-G-R-A-Y-E-D-D. The two D's are for a "double-dose of pimpin"

There is no cap on upgrades, downgrades of course stop when you hit original base Difficulty.

DOWNGRADING MORE DICE THAN AVAILABLE

There may be situations in which a player needs to downgrade more Proficiency dice into Ability dice or Challenge dice into Difficulty dice than are available. If all of the potential dice are already in their downgraded form, any further downgrades are ignored.

Note that the sequence is add dice, subtract dice, upgrade dice, downgrade dice... so it's not the base difficulty, it's however many purples you end up with.

Exempli Gratia Extremis: Joe has a YYGG pool and a difficulty of PPPP. The difficulty is upgraded 6 times for a variety of things (including Adversary 4)... so he's now got YYGGRRRR... and downgraded 6 times for a collection of really good reasons involving him being a 1500 XP character... the 6th downgrade is lost, and he's left with YYGGPPPPP.

OK. one last try, I was not commenting on how the dice pool can be affected by both upgrades and downgrades at once in one pool. All I was saying is that upgrades have no ceiling for increases but there is a floor to downgrades.

OK. one last try, I was not commenting on how the dice pool can be affected by both upgrades and downgrades at once in one pool. All I was saying is that upgrades have no ceiling for increases but there is a floor to downgrades.

Right, but your description of the floor was off from what it really is.