oh and as an aside - I absolutely loved the mechanics in riddle of steel. Combat was so much fun. I bought that game (along with many others) as research material for writing systems of my own
Cry over WS/BS
NezziR said:
Erik Bauer said:
Yes, you can DEVELOP your character to be different, but 2 starting characters with St Bonus 3 will have the very same combat skill. That's not a lot of variety in my opinion
Unless they purchase different actions. Or one chooses to up his strength to 4, or one chooses to specialize in weaponskill, or ballistic skill. Or one chooses talents that affect combat and one chooses talents that affect social actions. Or one chooses a starting package with more money and buys a better weapon.
Yeah, except for those things, you're right.
Of course, because in V2, on top of differentiate starting stats you could also buy your first advancement, have different starting talents, different starting career to differentiate even further the two characters.
Erik Bauer said:
Of course, because in V2, on top of differentiate starting stats you could also buy your first advancement, have different starting talents, different starting career to differentiate even further the two characters.
Erik, you're of course welcome to think what you want about the game, etc, and I know you're an experienced and thoughtful wfrper. But, to be entirely honest, one of the things I most like about the game, and one of its great assets, is the way you can make a starting character very quickly, and have it show very clear differentiation and interesting idiosyncrasies right from the start.
On the purely statistical side, which I don't believe is that important, but is what you've brought up, a starting characteristic can vary from say 2 to 5 (actually 7 if you're mad), which is a much greater *effective* range than the 22-45 or so of the other versions.
The variety of Actions is especially evocative and serves to give characters a special feel, right from the start, eg, the difference between having a soldier with Double Strike, say, and Thunderous Blow, and the way that immeidately makes you think about your character. The way you can get two or three of these and combine them with a Talent that might enhance them, can really give a starting character a unique feel.
I realise I've been talking about combat only, but the social actions and talents serve the same purpose for non-combat feel for characters, too. Seriously, I find this to be one of the game's strengths. I've never seen cooler characters come straight out of the box, so to speak.
monkeylite said:
Erik Bauer said:
Of course, because in V2, on top of differentiate starting stats you could also buy your first advancement, have different starting talents, different starting career to differentiate even further the two characters.
Erik, you're of course welcome to think what you want about the game, etc, and I know you're an experienced and thoughtful wfrper. But, to be entirely honest, one of the things I most like about the game, and one of its great assets, is the way you can make a starting character very quickly, and have it show very clear differentiation and interesting idiosyncrasies right from the start.
On the purely statistical side, which I don't believe is that important, but is what you've brought up, a starting characteristic can vary from say 2 to 5 (actually 7 if you're mad), which is a much greater *effective* range than the 22-45 or so of the other versions.
The variety of Actions is especially evocative and serves to give characters a special feel, right from the start, eg, the difference between having a soldier with Double Strike, say, and Thunderous Blow, and the way that immeidately makes you think about your character. The way you can get two or three of these and combine them with a Talent that might enhance them, can really give a starting character a unique feel.
I realise I've been talking about combat only, but the social actions and talents serve the same purpose for non-combat feel for characters, too. Seriously, I find this to be one of the game's strengths. I've never seen cooler characters come straight out of the box, so to speak.
Reading the various diaries it is clear that character creation is a strong point of V3, no doubt about it.
My concern is that every version they seem willingly reduce the number of stats you have on your character sheert. That was also one of my concerns about V2. What I do dislike about this is the fact that, in the case of V3, two separate characters that at the end of character creation have the same strenght will have the same basic combat skill, training apart.
What I do mean is that the game mechanics use the assumption that two persons with the same strenght and no martial training have the very same combat skill, while in V1-V2 I could have a S40% WS 24% Beggar and a WS38% S23% Thief for example. This simply mens that by gaming mechanic WS is something innate and not depending upon physical strength. Wich somewhat manages to resemble what happens in the real world and manages to resemble it without using fancy and complicated rules.
My final question being: Why this choice? Why changing one of the things that made WFRP both different from any other RPG and similar to WFB?
Ii do see your point in a way. WS/BS as stats was one of the defining things about wfrp. But I always thought it odd, stats to me are a character's baseline innate abilities - I don't think combat skill is an innate ability, I think it's due to training and practice - that puts it into the Skill category for me. Talents can represent innate talents for things (obviously i've not seen the talents etc, so I don't know what's available there)
I think that's possibly the reason behind the change, to detach the attack rolls from just 1 stat, to a combination of a stat and a skill - and putting WS and BS in the skills section where their very names would imply that they belong.
though by the looks of it they've rolled the attack roll and damage roll into a single roll, so it looks like overall the complexity remains the same - but i have to admit, the idea of WS having an effect not only on your chance to hit, but also on how much damage you can inflict makes me smile.
the statline in wfrp 1 and 2 was bloody huge, probably bigger than any other mainstream RPG at the time. With some stats having very very specific uses. But then, wfrp 1 and 2 were more stat weighted than skill. v3 looks to be more balanced/skill and action focussed. Therefore, the vastness of the statline is less useful - and can be rolled into skills instead. I kind of like the way that's going to be working.
If I had any money left after buying this game, I'd bet it on the fact that there's probably going to be a Talent/Feat whatever that allows a particularly Dextrous character to use his or her Agility instead of Strength for Melee attacks.
Like D&D, it's use might be limited to lighter weapons (fencing swords, rapiers, daggers, whips etc...).
barefootwanderer said:
Ii do see your point in a way. WS/BS as stats was one of the defining things about wfrp. But I always thought it odd, stats to me are a character's baseline innate abilities - I don't think combat skill is an innate ability, I think it's due to training and practice - that puts it into the Skill category for me. Talents can represent innate talents for things (obviously i've not seen the talents etc, so I don't know what's available there)
I think that's possibly the reason behind the change, to detach the attack rolls from just 1 stat, to a combination of a stat and a skill - and putting WS and BS in the skills section where their very names would imply that they belong.
though by the looks of it they've rolled the attack roll and damage roll into a single roll, so it looks like overall the complexity remains the same - but i have to admit, the idea of WS having an effect not only on your chance to hit, but also on how much damage you can inflict makes me smile.
the statline in wfrp 1 and 2 was bloody huge, probably bigger than any other mainstream RPG at the time. With some stats having very very specific uses. But then, wfrp 1 and 2 were more stat weighted than skill. v3 looks to be more balanced/skill and action focussed. Therefore, the vastness of the statline is less useful - and can be rolled into skills instead. I kind of like the way that's going to be working.
I see... but the fact is that basic WS-BS ARE innate. Two different people with no combat training and same phisical strenght will combat in two different ways, maybe one better than the other. That is why having them as stats felt right, because it mirrored how things actually work without complicated and fancy rules.
Erik Bauer said:
I see... but the fact is that basic WS-BS ARE innate.
I find that "fact" debatable.
Are some people actually born with an innate knowledge of fencing or archery? I doubt that.
EDIT: I could believe that someone is naturally better at fighting due to a good mix of intuition, cleverness and a genetic predisposition to athletic ability.
Necrozius said:
Erik Bauer said:
I see... but the fact is that basic WS-BS ARE innate.
I find that "fact" debatable.
Are some people actually born with an innate knowledge of fencing or archery? I doubt that.
EDIT: I could believe that someone is naturally better at fighting due to a good mix of intuition, cleverness and a genetic predisposition to athletic ability.
Note my word basic . In fact fencing and archery are not basic skills but a non trained person with some predisposition (higher starting WS) will be more capable in using a sword in combat that a non trained person without any basic predisposition. That is what basic WS is to me.
Now, the fact that V3 adds Actions, Skills and Talents to differentiate different combat trainings is good, too bad they crippled a good idea they could have just kept.
I still think that if a kid is naturally good at swinging a sword around it means that he has well developed hand-eye coordination and physical finesse. That same kid would probably be kick ass at baseball or other sports too.
But I can't really provide any evidence to disprove the claim that some humans are born with a genetic makeup that intrinsically make them good killers. I don't believe in a "killer" gene, so to speak.
I mean, other than being born a psychopath.
So I'll step out of this argument!
Terwox said:
If you want to play a game that simulates reality as a priority, go buy Riddle of Steel.
Yeah, yeah. This isn't the point of this discussion.
I'm saying that with all the designer/old experiences/potentials something more could be achieved.