So I'm tempted to exchange my Gunnery Team for a Flight Controller on my ISD and then swap Dengar for IG-88, effectively trading intel for lasers as a strategy. This would let me shove 4 firesprays with 4 blue dice per attack as well as the unrivaled HK capabilities of the IG with no loss in Battery power.

I'm hesitant to lose the Gunnery Team because the ISD can do disgusting things with it - just last game Neith KO'd another ISD before vaporizing a Raider and crippling a Gladiator. She died, but more than earned her place. Without that Gun Team though, the Raider would have lived and probably the Gladiator as well. But on the same token, if the Firesprays had just finished the **** job then I could've deterred him with Bombing runs, etcetc.

I don't care about losing Dengar, really. Intel is neat but more often than not I'm where I want to be anyway. This will simply guarantee the squads at least trade evenly.

Anyway, here's the fleet thus far:

24th Expeditionary Survey - 399pts

Imperial-II - 120 pts

• 
  

  Admiral Motti - 24pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  Wing Commander - 6pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  Flight Controllers - 6pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  Boosted Comms - 4pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  Electronic Counter Measures - 7pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  XI-7 Turbolasers - 6pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts

  
  
  

Raider-II - 48pts

• 
  

  Veteran Captain - 3pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts

  
  
  

Raider-II - 48pts

• 
  

  Veteran Captain - 3pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts

  
  
  

Major Rhymer - 16 pts

• 
  

  IG-88 - 21pts

  
  
  
• 
  

  Firespray-31[x4] - 18pts[72pts]

  
  
  

OBJECTIVES: Precision Strike, Fleet Ambush, Superior Positions

Isd 2=broken with gun teams

Keep them.

At worst if you still need an edge in the squadron game you can use your 2nd shot to Shoot at squads (helped by gunnery letting you shoot out the same arc)

Isd 2=broken with gun teams

Keep them.

At worst if you still need an edge in the squadron game you can use your 2nd shot to Shoot at squads (helped by gunnery letting you shoot out the same arc)

See, I agree with you, but I have a nagging feeling that I can offset that advantage with proper play. Neith is no slouch for damage, especially with SW7s. It's just...the best counter to the Fireball at the moment is massed squads, and letting the Firesprays hit like interceptors is going to rend that plot to bits. They can also clear the escorts faster and get to proper bombing, doing precision damage over mass damage to equalize the loss of the gun team. Effectively it takes the eight dice from my nonexistent second shot and gives them to the Firesprays instead without costing an attack, just pushing it to a different hull.

If you want a carrier, run a VSD with the controllers. You won't miss the ability of using the same arc nearly as much. Leave the ISD to do what it does best: throw ALOT of dice.

If you want a carrier, run a VSD with the controllers. You won't miss the ability of using the same arc nearly as much. Leave the ISD to do what it does best: throw ALOT of dice.

I was tempted to put in a VSD with Chirneau and Controllers, but...that's a major re-balancing of the fleet as is. I will swap Dengar out, cut straight to 400, since there seem to be no objections there.

Although IG-88 throwing five dice...

Isd 2=broken with gun teams

Keep them.

At worst if you still need an edge in the squadron game you can use your 2nd shot to Shoot at squads (helped by gunnery letting you shoot out the same arc)

See, I agree with you, but I have a nagging feeling that I can offset that advantage with proper play. Neith is no slouch for damage, especially with SW7s. It's just...the best counter to the Fireball at the moment is massed squads, and letting the Firesprays hit like interceptors is going to rend that plot to bits. They can also clear the escorts faster and get to proper bombing, doing precision damage over mass damage to equalize the loss of the gun team. Effectively it takes the eight dice from my nonexistent second shot and gives them to the Firesprays instead without costing an attack, just pushing it to a different hull.

I see what you mean about getting the Firesprays to try and win the squadron war. But you are paying all those points for rogue and bomber, and then flight controllers and wing commander on top. It feels inefficient to have to push them around. Dengar lets them fly around and bomb things at will. Surely the Raiders can just spray the enemy fighters with flak while your bombers bomb?

Ravel, I share your analysis about Gunnery Team. I think it's way over rated because the prospect of one shotting 2 ships is amazing.

Realistically, I don't see anything like that happen ever, because the situations were any opponent is going to willingly allow 2 of his ships to be shot at in the optimal range of an ISD 2 are extremely rate because any smart player will do their best to avoid that. And dodging the optimal arc of an ISD 2 isn't that hard with ships that can, and ships that can tank will make sure that you can only shoot at one of them optimally.

The only two situations where I can see it interesting are :

1) At long range, but the firepower of an ISD 2 at long range is nothing extremely amazing

2) If you want to shoot both at 1 ship and an anti-fighter barrage (which is interesting)

Before the "But GT is good because it's good in Ackbar lists", there are 3 différences :

1) The optimal range is much longer than with an ISD2 due to relying on Red dice ( (if it was a pure circle, the formula for the area is Pi * R^2, and considering the Red dice range is 5/3 the length of the Blue dice range, the area covered is about 2.778 times bigger)

2) The hull zone of the Rebel Broadside has a wider arc than an ISD 2's Blue dice range, making the area covered even bigger

3) It throws the same amount of dice or more At long range

So, while it's not a bad choice, it's not enough to be a go to in my opinion.

Flight Controllers works well in lists with average to bad amounts of anti-squadron dice, because really mitigates the counter of low anti Squadron dice Squadrons : being stuck with a good fighter screen and allows to score points.

Example : TIE Fighter average AS damage with Swarm : 1.875

TIE Fighter average AS damage with FC and Swarm : 2.5 (or +33%)

TIE Bomber average AS damage : 0.75

TIE Bomber average AS damage with FC : 1.25 (+66%)

Firesprays average AS damage : 1.5

Firesprays average AS damage with FC : 2 (+33%)

Obviously, it's not going to be enough, but my point was Squadrons need less FC when they're already food with AS

What about Ruthless Strategists ? Firesprays can tank the extra dalage and now each of your AS barrage has a 75% chance to deal 2 damage or more to the squadrons sent to intercept the Firesprays if you don't take Dengar.

Followed up by your Firesprays AS attacks, provided you swarm one target squadron with 2 of them, that's 2 XWings dead per turn (2 damage from the AF barrage, and 2 x 1.5 from the Firesprays) without even factoring in IG88. That's anything from 26 to 39 points per turn by baiting the enemy into intercepting your Firesprays, which isn't insignificant. Not including your Raiders' contribution either.

I feel Dengar is better when bufingt TIE Bomber Squadrons because :

1) Dengar + TIE A/Vader won't be able to protect anyone if the Fireball, so the opponent will focus on nimbling on the Firesprays

2) With 6hp vs 5, Firesprays are marginally harder to kill than Bombers, but yield twice the VP and when dead remove twice the battery armament.

Meanwhile, with RS you bait their interception into doing their job and you won't even care about Counter because the ISD throws More damage as an extra Firesprays AS attack

Isd 2=broken with gun teams

One of the main reasons my Vader Duet works.

Why do people not consider Mithel in areas like this. . .

Why do people not consider Mithel in areas like this. . .

Thanks for reminding me he exists, I think I'll try to include him in my Store Champ list

I see what you mean about getting the Firesprays to try and win the squadron war. But you are paying all those points for rogue and bomber, and then flight controllers and wing commander on top. It feels inefficient to have to push them around. Dengar lets them fly around and bomb things at will. Surely the Raiders can just spray the enemy fighters with flak while your bombers bomb?

I'm swapping Dengar for IG-88, but you're right about the Raiders. They *can* flak, but I have more recently used them to potshot ships. I may need to re-evaluate my maneuvers.

Razel, I share your analysis about Gunnery Team. I think it's way over rated because the prospect of one shotting 2 ships is amazing.

Realistically, I don't see anything like that happen ever, because the situations were any opponent is going to willingly allow 2 of his ships to be shot at in the optimal range of an ISD 2 are extremely rate because any smart player will do their best to avoid that. And dodging the optimal arc of an ISD 2 isn't that hard with ships that can, and ships that can tank will make sure that you can only shoot at one of them optimally.

Flight Controllers works well in lists with average to bad amounts of anti-squadron dice, because really mitigates the counter of low anti Squadron dice Squadrons : being stuck with a good fighter screen and allows to score points.

What about Ruthless Strategists ? Firesprays can tank the extra damage and now each of your AS barrage has a 75% chance to deal 2 damage or more to the squadrons sent to intercept the Firesprays if you don't take Dengar.

Meanwhile, with RS you bait their interception into doing their job and you won't even care about Counter because the ISD throws More damage as an extra Firesprays AS attack

The strategists are tempting, but I hate adding damage that I know will bite me later. Otherwise, Iwill simply have to maneuver Neith with more care. I keep talking myself into it with five words:

Firesprays that shoot like Interceptors.

Why do people not consider Mithel in areas like this. . .

I had initially, but he ins't nearly as durable as IG-88, and I can afford either.

Ravel, I share your analysis about Gunnery Team. I think it's way over rated because the prospect of one shotting 2 ships is amazing.

Realistically, I don't see anything like that happen ever, because the situations were any opponent is going to willingly allow 2 of his ships to be shot at in the optimal range of an ISD 2 are extremely rate because any smart player will do their best to avoid that. And dodging the optimal arc of an ISD 2 isn't that hard with ships that can, and ships that can tank will make sure that you can only shoot at one of them optimally.

Seeing gunnery team on an ISD makes me excited as Rebel player. My preffered list is 2 MC30 and 3 CR90 with Engine Techs. You will never, ever get value out of that card when you play against me. I've gotten really, really good at avoiding the front arc of an ISD. So I agree with this analysis but I encourage you to run gunnery teams on every ship you field. Please. Do it for me.

Why do people not consider Mithel in areas like this. . .

Mithel + Dengar, or Miley Cyrus' biggest fan duo. Throwing in a TIE A might be even better so he doesn't become a target off the bat.

Thanks for reminding me he exists, I think I'll try to include him in my Store Champ list

@Razel

I can understand the philosophy behind that, no beef from me here

The thing is that you don't have to proc them all the time, only when needed, and Rogue + the odd Wing Commander activation allows you to pick your fights (winning ones obviously). I'd take one damage on the squadrons if I can assure killing off a XWing Which is why I feel RS was an interesting choice.

If you don't want to take it, definitely fine, but I would recommend Gunnery Team just so you can shoot both AF barrages and regular anti-ship

To be 100% honest with you, I personally don't think that Squadrons from the R&V pack are working well as the mainstay of a squadron force, but rather were designed to be added on top of the main force, but that's just me and I won't deter players from playing that if they enjoy playing it. Rather, I think they were designed as support that can operate on top of regular squadron activations (except the Scurrg and Nym, for some reason I can't figure out how they can be effective without being activated)

The current fleet doctrine I have is having each ship manage a number of squadron equal to its squadron activations (and I may be wrong about that but so far I've had good results), with ISD/VSD working on volume of dice from Squadrons and ships having 1-2 Squadrons working with the special ability of the squadrons/aces so that I'm getting returns even if I don't activate them.

Example : I like my Raiders managing TIE A because they're versatile Squadrons when activated, and when not activated you can throw them in the squadron phase to provide Escort to Squadrons on the verge of death (that way you maximizing the tanking capability of both the escort and the escorted) after you know where the enemy is located.

Then I add R&V for extra abilities to be used on top of the regular command chain (or sacrificing an activation to fo so when It is more tactically advantageous to do so).

So, full Firesprays Wings on top of ISDs don't fit well with that doctrine Not saying It can't be worked out, but I feel It burns too many points compared to the lower number of Squadrons you're getting.

Ravel, I share your analysis about Gunnery Team. I think it's way over rated because the prospect of one shotting 2 ships is amazing.Realistically, I don't see anything like that happen ever, because the situations were any opponent is going to willingly allow 2 of his ships to be shot at in the optimal range of an ISD 2 are extremely rate because any smart player will do their best to avoid that. And dodging the optimal arc of an ISD 2 isn't that hard with ships that can, and ships that can tank will make sure that you can only shoot at one of them optimally.

Seeing gunnery team on an ISD makes me excited as Rebel player. My preffered list is 2 MC30 and 3 CR90 with Engine Techs. You will never, ever get value out of that card when you play against me. I've gotten really, really good at avoiding the front arc of an ISD. So I agree with this analysis but I encourage you to run gunnery teams on every ship you field. Please. Do it for me.

I get value just by forcing you to fly around it.

I get value just by forcing you to fly around it.

Yep. You can't avoid it all of the time, and with GT you just have to be that much more careful. It also prevents you from cramming multiple ships into one arc - a decent strategy without GT, especially with such a wide arc.

I keep talking myself into it with five words:

Firesprays that shoot like Interceptors.

I had initially, but he ins't nearly as durable as IG-88, and I can afford either.

But Interceptors already shoot like Interceptors, and they are a whopping 7 points less. If you run 3 Firesprays, and flight controllers you get the exact same AS dice as 3 Interceptors - for 21 more points.

Take that 21 points, and go nuts with it, grab Howlrunner. Now you start with 3 AS dice at distance 4, then you get 5 dice with a reroll from each Interceptor - and they all have Counter 3, and you still have 3 points. If you want to absolutely crush AS, you can still grab Flight Controllers for only net 1 point cost (that's now 6 AS dice + reroll, and Counter 3.)

Or maybe 4 AS is enough, and with those Interceptors you don't need Howlrunner or Flight Controllers, you can upgrade one Interceptor to Fel, and get semi-escort (almost everyone elects to attack Fel if they can) and he gets his Counter on that, you'd still have 14 spare points. Or you could take that 21 points and just grab 2 bombers and have 3 points left over.

Now I don't want to seem like I'm trying to tell you to drop Firesprays. I use 3 myself. I just wonder if you aren't a little too fixated on this 4 AS dice thing because it comes up so much, and Interceptors are just plain better at that for much cheaper. It feels like you are spending a lot of points to make dilute the purpose of your Firesprays. You are building around not using Rogue, and trying to accentuate their their only mediocre AS dice.

Personally what I run is:

Firespray x3

Dengar

Vader

Mithel (added after last tournament)

If I can also offer advice about IG 88 (I won't wait for permission, though, lol) I used him in my last tournament (instead of Mithel) and I was very underwhelmed. I took him because he seemed like this super cool, powerful assassin that rolls in and just messes everything up. BLAM! Take out Jan hiding behind 3 X Wings. BLAM! Take out Dutch next to Wedge.

He deals on average 2 damage. He's so expensive, and so geared towards assassination, but I just don't think he's very good at all. Remember that Mithel's ability ignores Escort and Counter, too, and can reliably hit for more than the .5 difference that their dice pools account for.

Ravel, I share your analysis about Gunnery Team. I think it's way over rated because the prospect of one shotting 2 ships is amazing.Realistically, I don't see anything like that happen ever, because the situations were any opponent is going to willingly allow 2 of his ships to be shot at in the optimal range of an ISD 2 are extremely rate because any smart player will do their best to avoid that. And dodging the optimal arc of an ISD 2 isn't that hard with ships that can, and ships that can tank will make sure that you can only shoot at one of them optimally.

Seeing gunnery team on an ISD makes me excited as Rebel player. My preffered list is 2 MC30 and 3 CR90 with Engine Techs. You will never, ever get value out of that card when you play against me. I've gotten really, really good at avoiding the front arc of an ISD. So I agree with this analysis but I encourage you to run gunnery teams on every ship you field. Please. Do it for me.

I get value just by forcing you to fly around it.

But, I was going to do it anyways ? Let's get one thing clear, I'll do everything I can so that an ISD can't get more than one optimal shot on a single ship. And if the ISD manages to target my ship, It wil so so according to my design on a ship that can tank it.

It's really easy to dodge a medium range ISD 2 arc, and cramming 2 ships in it means that you're still allowing the ISD to fire at one if you have the initiative.

I don't know what else to say, not only it is easy to avoid it's also the strategy one should be looking for anyways

But, I was going to do it anyways ? Let's get one thing clear, I'll do everything I can so that an ISD can't get more than one optimal shot on a single ship. And if the ISD manages to target my ship, It wil so so according to my design on a ship that can tank it.

It's really easy to dodge a medium range ISD 2 arc, and cramming 2 ships in it means that you're still allowing the ISD to fire at one if you have the initiative.

I don't know what else to say, not only it is easy to avoid it's also the strategy one should be looking for anyways

Yep, that's often the theory, and the goal. Reality doesn't always work out perfectly, though.

In any case, Gunnery Teams actually applies to all arcs, not just the front arc.

I prefer gunnery team, but like most other upgrades, you have to have a plan for it. Just hoping that two ships will land in your forward arc will work sometimes... and not others. But an ISD does move at speed 3 and its front arc is huge, so even the mere threat of gunnery teams is often enough to get opposing fleets to spread out (especially if you have initiative), which means less concentrated firepower being brought to bear on your ISD. Which is usually a win, even if it never triggers.

You're also not running a whole lot of fighters or Ordnance Experts, so your Raiders are potentially free to take Flight Controllers. You don't get nearly the same bang for your buck with them on a Raider (1-2 activations, instead of 4-5), and it looks like your ISD is set-up to be your main carrier, but if you were looking to selectively push some squadron-damage through early, and take advantage of Gunnery teams on your ISD late, the Raider with a banked squadron token (and/or expanded hangers) can do that for you (you also only have two squadrons that need a squadron command to move and shoot, so your list seems better equipped than others to rely solely on a Raider as a primary carrier). Again, not the most efficient, but it allows your ISD to be more versatile than just a squadron-pusher. Just a thought if you're struggling with whether to drop one for the other.

I also second the Ruthless Suggestion, but probably not if you have Firesprays--they're too good and too versatile and too expensive to self-destruct them, you want to milk every last bit of hull out of them before they pop. What you really want are a couple 9 point TIE bombers--they'll be the lowest priority of enemy squadrons in your set-up by far, and you can milk 10 extra damage out of them if you set them up right. You probably want that on a Raider, as well, which means either Ruthless or Flight Controllers on a single Raider. But again, I'd be hesitant to use them with your current squadron set-up, unless you add a cheap fodder unit or two.

@DerErlkoenig

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but anyone letting 2 of his ships caught by an ISD 2's front arc at medium range with GT should really go back to the practice table to work on his deployment and maneuvers. It doesn't take much skill in spatial awareness to figure out the path an ISD is going to take and plan a strategy around that I'm no expert in maneuver or planning but the only time an ISD 2 with GT could target 2 ships at medium range was when I was baiting it to draw its attention away from the critical area I wanted to secure.

@DerErlkoenig

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but anyone letting 2 of his ships caught by an ISD 2's front arc at medium range with GT should really go back to the practice table to work on his deployment and maneuvers. It doesn't take much skill in spatial awareness to figure out the path an ISD is going to take and plan a strategy around that I'm no expert in maneuver or planning but the only time an ISD 2 with GT could target 2 ships at medium range was when I was baiting it to draw its attention away from the critical area I wanted to secure.

@Lyr : Well, in my area, since GT on Vic 2s were a thing, I've never seen that happen more than twice over the course of several months. Perhaps in other places people are less considerate with regards to the safety of their crews

It's probably got to do with a cultural bias more than anything. In France many people prefer to win 6-4 securely than taking huge risks for an 8-2 (and by huge risks I mean giving the opponent the chance of getting an 8-2 as well if the plan goes terribly bad).

Responses! Ooh boy.

@Lyr : Well, in my area, since GT on Vic 2s were a thing, I've never seen that happen more than twice over the course of several months. Perhaps in other places people are less considerate with regards to the safety of their crews

It's probably got to do with a cultural bias more than anything. In France many people prefer to win 6-4 securely than taking huge risks for an 8-2 (and by huge risks I mean giving the opponent the chance of getting an 8-2 as well if the plan goes terribly bad).