Just a minor delima i thought i could get some advice on.

i'm a rookie GM and in one of my sessions ages ago i had players who were very expereinced in the lore (which is fine) but to what could be too into it if you catch my drift. Examples of such things is (due to most of my knowledge being from Codexes and the DH rule book) i was trying to describe a hive world and made the mistake in assuming they have sewers and immediately got corrected. The question i am asking is, whats the best way to deal with lore nazis? because there is the argument that if they are that anal don't let them play, but by the same token, i can understand trying to stick to the lore.

Cheers

Ryorus

Remind the player that GW do ret-con their matierial, and whilst it is all still considered cannon it also all both correct and incorrect, yes only the current rules are the real "Lore" they should be going by remind them that GW state any number of times that the vast majority of the imperium is run on misinformation and propagander. LEt them know that not every hive is a carbon copy of the last one they visited, remind them that Necromunda is just one type of hive, vastly different from Ambulon the walking hive, vastly different to the hive worlds whoch are sunk DOWN instead of rising UP, these hives are different to the hive worlds where the hive spreads OUT on the planets surface as opposed to Up in to the atmosphere, which again are different to the hives built on to the remains of craters so they are bowl shaped (as indeed featured in some novels), which again are different to the hive worlds build in space and not on a planet at all, which are different to the hives built on mining asteroids and so on.

I've a lore nazi in my game at the moment and i found the best way to combat him is to give him a character With the lore skills, so that way he cannot meta game, and has to roll to see if he "knows" in game as opposed to using metagame knowledge (using outside knowledge of the game and its setting with out in game knowing it). Caught him a croper last night with some Eldar, he said about Dark Eldar and so on, and i corrected him that as far as the Imperium were concerned there were Eldar, some of which were pirates others of which used vast craft to travel space and the webways. Whilst yes the Pirates do take saves and are known for being perticularly viscious there was no real way to tell them apart. He commented on the Dark Eldar having "spikey armour" to which he was told in game his character was not aware of such a thing, was docked XP for meta gaming, and given heavy modifiers in game when trying to talk about such things for the next couple of sessions, the modifiers he doesnt know about as i make some of his lore checks behind my screen to feed him false (or true) information as i see fit.

If your player remains a lore nazi, ask him how many times Lion El'Jonson has had his name changed, and then ask him which of those names are correct, seeing as GW consider them all correct in some manner or other. Ask him about the 5th official chaos god and why GW dont mention him anymore. Ask him about how ALL the squats were killed even thuogh they wasnt on the home worlds when the 'nids came along and snacked on them.

In game throw him a curveball, let him make the assumption and get it wrong, let him kmow that inded this planet doesnt have sewer pipes..

'why yes, you're right they Dont have sewer pipes here. on this planet the officials call them effluent transfer system pipes. They flow from most habs, solid waste goes to a processing plant, eventually, and is turned in to useful things like fuel, clothing, flakboard, sent off planet to agriworlds as fertiliser. the liquid waste is porcessed and fed back to the drinking taps. You want ice with that?'

If they didnt have sewer/waste pipes then the world would be overflowing in bodily waste. tell the player that he's now knee deep in crud and will need to make toughtness checks, minus 20, to stop from catching something or from fainting at the stench of it all.

Whoa thats a great idea. That should fix my problems. Thank you so much for the help. Thats is exactly what i needed.

You might consider tapping this resource in a less game-disruptive way. Consider offering the lore-intensive player a role similar to an Inquisitor's savant, but out of game! They will probably be flattered. Bounce non-spoiler ideas and info requests off this player between games and request feedback, but insist on strict "in character" play during game sessions. Your game gets a nice free infusion of lore-friendly detal and alot of the incentive to disrupt the game with "But on page 657 of the Ultramarines omnibus it clearly states that power armour....." goes away.

Most players will be reasonably content with an arrangement like this. For the true bipedal sphincters of the world there is always "pain therapy". Check local laws before using this method.

I had similiar issues in other gaming systems. Most of the time, the players correct me on "real world things" I wasn´t that wise then they were (or so they believed at last).

My solution is simple. At the start of the game group (or as the issue comes up) I declare (remind) that this is my world they are in. They are allowed, even encouraged, to make suggestion how it could/should be/work different. But as the GM, I have the last word.

If I say the Emporer is female and all Space Marines are homosexual and that a all daemons of nurgle are skinny... so it then will be.

P.S: Do not overdue this, so. I use this mainly for occasions where my plot will crumble otherwise.

My response if a player said there were no sewers in a hive after I just said there were?

"There are in my game."

(And, for what it's worth, there are indeed sewers in Hives in my game.)

(Where the hell does sewage go then?)

I had a player who was a big fan of Abnett. I, however, really don't care for his writing and, from what I've read, i don't care for his interpretation of the 40k universe. However, our differing views didn't pose much of a problem.

Being a fan of Abnette, he made a character which was, of course, from the Scurius (sp?) sector who had been press-ganged onto a navy boat and ended up in the Calixus sector. Any time there came to be a divergence in Abnett and his own view of the 40k universe that clashed with my own in-game descriptions or take on things, all I had to do was add into the narrative "...and indeed, that is how it was back home for Dackard and witnessing this obvious affront to how he thought things were supposed to be is just another reminder of how far away from home he now is; this 'Calixis Sector' is a strange place indeed." Bottom line, the galaxy is mindbogglingly huge. Most everything relating to the Imperium can be answered with the oft-hated phrase "depends on what planet..." and most anything can happen somewhere. Remind the player of this. There is no one kind of imperial world, one kind of IG regiment, and no one kind of hive.

Cardinalsin said:

OFT. The GM is always right.

As long as you keep away from very specific pieces of fluff like say the inner workings of the Dark Angels or the command structure of the Ultramarines then 99% of the WH40K universe has only been covered in general terms.

Graver said:

This a hundred times over!

It's actually really, really, really, really hard to be wrong about fluff in 40k. There are some many exceptions to the rule that you could, metaphorically, choke on them.

"Hives don't have sewers? Well, that's only Hives in the Telchines Sub-Sector where they were outlawed by Sector Overlord Ulys! We have them here in the Iris Sector where we are ruled by good nobles! "

Ryorus said:

That's ridiculous! Of course, a hive has sewers...It's called the underhive!

Although a new GM to Dark Heresy I have had a significant amount of experience DM'ing for my DnD group. Overall the easiest way to deal with anyone that knows to much is to:

A) Force them to roll a skill check (almost put down knowledge check). The PCs are acting out relatively brand new initiates, much of the information they know is probably what they have been told to them by the elders on their home planet, their inquisitor, and their ordos. This information could be extremely vague or completely inaccurate. The skill check will be the best way for the PC to short out what information is correct.

B) What Cardinalsin, and many of the other people on this thread have said, this is your game (and probably your planet) you can have it designed in any way you see fit. This goes back to one of the most basic rules of any PRG, the GM should define what cannon is appropiate at any given time and make up their own as they see fit. If we did not have this rule GM's would be limited to information only in source books and directly from GW.

Just remember that you are the GM, you have the final say in the world you are painting for the PCs.

Good luck and happy gaming.

One thing to keep in mind is except for very speciffic details, Imperial homogeneality is utterly mythical. Yes, every Imperial world worships the Emperor, but each brings it's own distinctive (and often contrary) spin to the Imperial Cult. An entire branch of the Ecclesiarchy exists simply to reconcile the varied and disparate sects into some sanctioned (thus non-heretical!) hash of ideas and orthodoxy.

The Space Marine chapters are all the same and follow the Coxex Imperialis as written by Robutalle Guilliman 10k years ago as sacred and rigid... No, actually far from it! Most chapters of Astartes have minor differences of tradition and organization, calling on ancient rituals passed down by the Chapter that often date back to when the Emperor walked on his own feet. Some more radical Chapters depart quite radically from the Codex: Black Templars and Space Wolves come to mind. Even the every definition of a "Codex Chapter" has undergone change: The Ultramarines themselves have undergone some structural changes in the face of their battles with the Tyranids. Consider that in early SM army lists ALL marines could wear a jump pack for 2 points each (cheap!) an in tactical squads it was possible to replace a single trooper's boltgun with a shuriken catapult (back then they were slightly superior to a storm bolter!). Digital weapons were freely available to Terminator Sergeants. Times change.

Surely the Imperial Guard are more cookie-cutter then? They lack the traditional exemptions against Ecclesiarchy and Departmento Munitorum oversight, after all! Nope, far from it! Even the ubiquitous lasgun is not a given. Imperial Guard regiments are raised and equipped to the best of their homeworld's abilities. Cadian Shocktroops are highly trained professionals with abundant quality wargear. Catachan jungle fighters lack the professional polish and are barely even uniform except for the red bandana and big-@ss knife, but they are brutal fighters. Vostroyans have an unusual relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus and sport beautiful antique lasguns and fancy gilded carapace plates. More unfortunate backwater IG units might lack the ability to prodice lasguns, and so they issue autoguns, shotguns or even (Emperor help them!) crossbows. Other units might have ready and plentiful lasgun production, but an utter inability to produce modern body armour, leading to the rather awkward sight of several battalions of troopers marching to war in chainmail and overcharged lasguns.

It is already established canon that because of the widespread use of STC construction methods and the frequenty seen case of worlds being able to mass produce a product but have absolutely no understanding of HOW the items work. Understanding is not important, simply that it DOES work and that you respect the machine spirit! There are worlds in the Imperium that can easy churn out repulsorlift driven Landspeeders and mighty plasma cannons, yet are utterly incapable of producing internal combustion engines. It is not a matter of reverse-engineering, for that is the path of tech-heresy! If the patterns and templates have been lost and the factory destroyed, then that item simply ceases to be.

As for the hundreds of millions of hive-dwellers NOT having sewage conduits? Such epic level foulness is only appropriate if Nurgle has ruled over the world for far too long. EEEEEWWWW!

Same as all the above. Some hives have sewers, some just stink, some are painted orange. It's whatever your world is in your head.

One of the hard things to do is make sure you do not contradict yourself.

e.g. In the official game Edge of Darkness, Hive Sibellus where you are operating (Coscarla sector) is described as spread out, but in Rejoice For You Are True the hive is a great spire piercing the clouds.

My way around this possible confusion was for when they returned to Sibellus in RFYAT I mention that Corscarla was many hours away from the central spire (think downtown and suburbs).

Baldrick said:

I use the materials here . They are of outstanding quality.

In my games we have effluaries . Rivers of sewage and other matter... lovely stuff. I'm not sure where one would get the idea that there weren't sewers in a Hive City. My players (who are very versed in the lore) never even blinked. It's a role-playing game... it HAS TO HAVE SEWERS!

Jephkay said:

I can't believe nobody said this before. Defence rests!

Jephkay said:

And all those sewers are flowing towards a spaceport, so that the agri-worlds can get their fertiliser.

Ryorus said:

'Corrected'?!?!?

You're the GM...what you say goes.

What is this 'lore master' layer's source for all hives lacking sewers?

Aside from being utter nonsense it is also practically and narratively unthinkable.

Practically unithinkable because without sewerage, where does all the sewage go? Collection and treatment is vital to prevent immediate and lethal outbreaks of cholera, thyphoid, staphiloccochal infections and bacteriological nightmares of all types...(i like the idea of the solids being piped to a spaceport for shipping to the agriworlds by the way... )

Narratively unthinkable because...well...sewers are essential for the grimdark adventures to have a useful backdrop...

Ryorus said:

Smile ploitely and tell them that in YOUR 40k or on THIS world...what you're saying is THE TRUTH.

Ryorus said:

In 40k terms this is quite literally impossible .

There is no 'canon'...

This cannot be expressed enough.

There is no 'canon'... except the stuff that is. Which isn't canon, and in any case can change or be retconned at any time...and may in fact not have been right in the first place...or may have just been propaganda...or the musings of a madman (*ahem*Squats*ahem*)...heck, even space marines could be nothing more than elite Imperial Guard with a REALLY good Public Relations arm...whose to say?

So really, don't worry.

Whatever YOU AS GM decide is right...in 40k...is in fact right *.

So if you say there's are no ORks...there are no Orks.

If you say hives have sewers...by jimminy...they have sewers!!

*Note: this is the GM fiat in all games it just applies doubly to the 40k IP.

Woh...what happened to the text in my post above ?!?!?!

Wierdness ensues...

Sorry, i rolled a 9....