Sorry if this has been answered before. We just started playing and didn't immediately find any downside to repeatedly re-rolling your Force power checks, and not spending the points until you get Light Side points (other than the time it takes to make a few Force power checks; which appears to be very quick). I.E., given enough time, you will never have to tap into dark side points if you don't want to; and this is really only an issue in combat or when you have time constraints.

Is that true?

So a Force Rating 1 character with the Basic Seek power can meditate, and re-roll until he gets 2 Light Side Points; meaning he will eventually (always) find the general location/direction of person or object he is hunting for (presuming he knows about it first, per the rules).

I'd say the character couldn't use the power to locate the same target within the same scene.

I wouldn't.

Some applications this makes more sense with than others, but basically, yes, that is how the rules work mechanically.

But lets give an example using move, since its more visual, and gets used this way in the movies some.

Each time you invoke the power, the item you are trying to move wiggles or jostles a little bit. But until you spend a pip, it doesnt do anything meaningful. So, given enough time, you can wait until you have light side points before moving an item. And you see examples, lukes training on dagobah comes to mind, where he tries to move a thing, and it doesnt move at first, but with time and concentration, he can keep using the power until it works.

So, if you had all day, moving a crate to a ledge or something, you could certainly keep trying until it works. But then, by the time it gets up there, it may be a little dinged up from failed attempts, and depending on the patience of the character, after 2 or 3 tries without a light side point, he may get impatient and just take the conflict. Just because its bad mechanically doesnt mean a character wont do it.

For something like seek or forsee I think its a bit more tricky since it is less visual. If you are using seek 3-4 times without result, its possible that you will have false thoughts from the failed attempts to muddy the correct one from the real attempt. Perhaps treat it somewhat like a success with threat, where the number of failed rounds is analogous to the amount of threat. They should get you the right general direction, but perhaps not as clear and direct of a path as if they had gotten it right on the first roll.

My basic rule for these kinds of situations is to never allow a second attempt at something unless the circumstances have changed. New information, expended resources, etc. Occasionally I will allow it with just an increased difficulty, but that isn't really an option for this situation.

We just started playing and didn't immediately find any downside to repeatedly re-rolling your Force power checks, and not spending the points until you get Light Side points (other than the time it takes to make a few Force power checks; which appears to be very quick).

There is no point in rolling at all if you do that, just hand-wave it and move on rather than wasting everyone's time*. Mechanically you are correct, but the game assumes people use common sense.

Rolls outside of structured time should simply represent a longer time period. This is true of most of the skills. If you want to fix a speeder, you don't roll Mechanics for every "turn". Instead, you establish a base duration, and then use one roll to represent the entire result...maybe the job went really well, but took a little longer, etc.

Using Survival for cross-country travel is another example: one roll, against difficulty set by terrain and other hazards, might represent half a day in duration, and enough threat or a despair might trigger a nasty encounter.

So in this case, establish a duration, add a Discipline check, and roll once. Failure means they "never rolled a light side pip", any Threat is applied to Strain, etc.

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* I admit I have a dim view of players who want to leverage that kind of thing...I've had situations where I wasn't the GM, and a player basically hijacked the game while we waited for him to get the results he wanted.

If your players show impatience, entitlement, or a desire to alter fate, remind them they can always use the dark side. You can also point out that you won't make them flip a destiny if they do, since you're such a nice guy.

We just started playing and didn't immediately find any downside to repeatedly re-rolling your Force power checks, and not spending the points until you get Light Side points (other than the time it takes to make a few Force power checks; which appears to be very quick).

There is no point in rolling at all if you do that, just hand-wave it and move on rather than wasting everyone's time*. Mechanically you are correct, but the game assumes people use common sense.

Rolls outside of structured time should simply represent a longer time period. This is true of most of the skills. If you want to fix a speeder, you don't roll Mechanics for every "turn". Instead, you establish a base duration, and then use one roll to represent the entire result...maybe the job went really well, but took a little longer, etc.

Using Survival for cross-country travel is another example: one roll, against difficulty set by terrain and other hazards, might represent half a day in duration, and enough threat or a despair might trigger a nasty encounter.

So in this case, establish a duration, add a Discipline check, and roll once. Failure means they "never rolled a light side pip", any Threat is applied to Strain, etc.

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* I admit I have a dim view of players who want to leverage that kind of thing...I've had situations where I wasn't the GM, and a player basically hijacked the game while we waited for him to get the results he wanted.

I'm kinda onboard with this. Re-rolling until you succeed, no matter how many tries it takes... there's no point in rolling. Just say that "it takes a while, but you succeed". Or, if you still want the dice roll to reflect the chances of success or failure, then adhere to that. "Sorry, you failed. No matter how many times you try right now, it just doesn't seem to be working. Try again later."

My basic rule for these kinds of situations is to never allow a second attempt at something unless the circumstances have changed. New information, expended resources, etc. Occasionally I will allow it with just an increased difficulty, but that isn't really an option for this situation.

Yeah, that ^

I would rather allow them to use Darkside pips without conflict then just keep rolling

I look at it as the result on the dice indicates the sum total of the PCs attempts to do something. Each roll encompasses the entirety of the attempt. So no re-rolls. You just have to, ahem, roll with the results.

I look at it as the result on the dice indicates the sum total of the PCs attempts to do something. Each roll encompasses the entirety of the attempt. So no re-rolls. You just have to, ahem, roll with the results.

^This is the gist of it. In Structured time re-rolling makes sense because each attempt is an Action during an encounter and the repercussions are immediate (at least for most things, though for some things I definitely require some kind of change or increased Difficulty).

For between encounters though one roll generally represents all the PC's attempts during that time period. So unless something changes (the PC gets a new clue, or makes some kind of discovery) there really is no reason to roll again, they just failed.

However, if you as the GM feel that a positive result for the action is inevitable (and/or desirable) then just narrate it without a roll at all.

I look at it as the result on the dice indicates the sum total of the PCs attempts to do something. Each roll encompasses the entirety of the attempt. So no re-rolls. You just have to, ahem, roll with the results.

The flip side to this is a huge portion of the game is set up to be narrative. As long as the character has the Force rating to succeed, they succeed (in an unstructured time frame).

Examples of this are found with other skills - landing a ship doesn't require a roll normally. Landing a ship in structured time may - you don't have the time to dot your Is and cross your Ts because you need it on the ground this round.

Structured time is really only used as an "under pressure" mechanism. You normally don't have dinner in structured time, it's narrative. Getting the last steak before the Wookie would be structured.

Things where there are potential consequences for failure should require rolls. There is no consequence for failing to move a box this round when you are practicing. In a fight - consequences. Blocking the hallway in a firefight - consequences. Sitting on the floor in a ships hold when you have 3 days of hyperspace travel - no consequences.

There are technically even consequences for trying to use heal to cure a critical injury - you can only do 5 healings a day so you have to count them.

Using sense while stuck in a jail cell. No consequences - unless there is a force sensitive guard.

The exception to this would be for things that would include an opposed roll - if there is a discipline or other check that's supposed to be made with the force roll, then there should probably be only the 1 check.

Agree if you are going to allow someone to roll over and over yet the time taken to re-roll doesn't have consequences or cost to it you might as well just let them succeed to begin with or don't allow the re-rolls.

Also in my games I don't add conflict to non aggressive actions that use Darkside pips as long as there are any equal amount of light side and Darkside pips used.

Agree if you are going to allow someone to roll over and over yet the time taken to re-roll doesn't have consequences or cost to it you might as well just let them succeed to begin with or don't allow the re-rolls.

Also in my games I don't add conflict to non aggressive actions that use Darkside pips as long as there are any equal amount of light side and Darkside pips used.

My group does something similar, except we don't get conflict at all. It's part of the story so if something happens that will shake a character to their core we role play it out.

We also use the Force Balance rules I wrote, so every light and dark pip that is used is totaled at the end of the session. The lower pips are subtracted from the higher pips. The light/dark side scale is moved appropriately. That scale goes -70 (Full Dark Side) to 70 (Full Light Side). The goal is to stay around 20 points of zero to maintain balance.

Sorry if this has been answered before. We just started playing and didn't immediately find any downside to repeatedly re-rolling your Force power checks, and not spending the points until you get Light Side points (other than the time it takes to make a few Force power checks; which appears to be very quick). I.E., given enough time, you will never have to tap into dark side points if you don't want to; and this is really only an issue in combat or when you have time constraints.

Is that true?

So a Force Rating 1 character with the Basic Seek power can meditate, and re-roll until he gets 2 Light Side Points; meaning he will eventually (always) find the general location/direction of person or object he is hunting for (presuming he knows about it first, per the rules).

Mechanically? Sure, but as a GM would I allow that? Absolutely not.

I'd deal with this in one of two ways, first if it was not time sensative and needed to occur for plot progression then I'd not even require a roll, I'd just narrate that after some amount of time they managed to do what they wished.

However if I did call for a roll and they failed they wouldn't be able to roll it again because to do so is very meta game thinking. Ie if you where trying to tap into the force to say find someone you where looking for with seek and failed then basically your character would conclude after x amount of time that the person was clouded to you, the roll out of combat represents not just them sitting there and trying once but them trying over some duration of time and finally deciding they can't do it yet. At best if I where to allow another roll it would be during another scene but not just roll after roll after roll in a single scene.

The same goes for nearly any other kind of roll, failed mechanics check to fix the ship? You run into a problem you can't fix because you don't have the necessary parts for yet or you just get frustrated and give up for the time being figure you've done your best. Fail that negotiation roll to find an item? You've searched high and low throughout the town with no luck and decide you're simply not going to find it here. Fail a knowledge check to find out more about someone or something? After pouring over books and data-files for hours you come up with nothing and decide you're not going to get anywhere anytime soon and so should move on for the time being before you pull your hair out.

As others have said allowing for tons of rolls instead of making a single roll span the free time frame makes the rolling pointless and at that point you might as well handwave it instead of making a roll at all.

Here's a similar discussion with (what are, in my opinion) some good insights:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189489-force-heal-repeatedly/

I'd say it really depends on the situation at hand. Don't make a blanket houserule; just take it on a case-by-case basis. I applaud the developers for refraining from trying to create hard and fast rules for this, because it's much better left to GMs and players to take the responsibility of playing out their Force usage in the context of the current scene.

Also remember that a check, even one that gained no LS pips, was considered "successful" in the sense that the Force was called upon. With this in mind, and the idea that some can sense Force use, it's not advisable to do it all the time.

Also remember that a check, even one that gained no LS pips, was considered "successful" in the sense that the Force was called upon. With this in mind, and the idea that some can sense Force use, it's not advisable to do it all the time.

Ah! Maybe that's why that piece of rules is in there I've been trying to figure that out for a long time.

That's my thinking. And the last thing you want to do is keep using the Force over and over when hiding from an Inquisitor... or worse.

Also remember that a check, even one that gained no LS pips, was considered "successful" in the sense that the Force was called upon. With this in mind, and the idea that some can sense Force use, it's not advisable to do it all the time.

While this is a good point in terms of storytelling, it's not a solution for the mechanics. They are not related.

Agreed, but it is a reason for why most players I know of are hesitant to wantonly use the Force, even if doing so would eventually guarantee them a light side pip or two.

Another thing to keep in mind is that using a Dark Side Pip isn't a sign of being evil, it basically means that you are not necessarily in a positive state when you try and draw on the Force. You may be feeling some fear or anger because of the stress of the situation, or maybe your are so invested or pressured at that time you succumb to a moment of weakness, especially with PCs that are weaker (1-2 Ranks) in the Force. One Conflict Pip does not a Sith Lord make, so tell your players to lighten up a bit on Conflict avoidance, you're not murdering people after all, it's okay to get a few per session.

The Big Deal though is the Destiny Point expenditure. I don't mind gaining a bit of conflict, but the DP is a steep price to pay in a lot of circumstances. This is why I feel it's best to limit the number of Force checks (or ANY action) that can be performed during "downtime." No hard and fast rule, but just make it reasonable. Tell them "you have time for X skill checks or Force powers, if you want to attempt to heal yourself up or meditate on the future or install a mod on your gun." That way, the Destiny Point & Conflict combo becomes more of an attractive option

I would approach it one of two ways. 1) that one roll represents your total attempts to do something (which was mentioned). Even if you had all day, that 1 roll represents whether it happened or not (so in this sense, 1 roll is not 1 actual action, but the eventual result of some thing, even if it took a while)

or 2) I kinda like the idea of applying strain to every failed attempt (maybe even additional strains if Threats are generated). This way, they can attempt as many times as they want before their character is too tired or incapable of continuing and needs rest.

or, 3) I guess just call it a success outright without rolling if success is inevitable and no consequences would come of failure (aside from stress, I guess)

These assume an abundance of time at hand. Obviously, in the heat of the moment, only 1 roll would be allowed.

or 2) I kinda like the idea of applying strain to every failed attempt (maybe even additional strains if Threats are generated). This way, they can attempt as many times as they want before their character is too tired or incapable of continuing and needs rest.

This is okay unless you've got the Heal control upgrade that allows for strain to be healed. 1 light side pip and *poof,* those last 3 or 4 checks' worth of strain are gone.

This is why I am a fan of not limiting it "only 1 check and that's it for the day," or any other houseruled patch, but rather setting a reasonable limit as the GM is supposed to do. Maybe they have 8 hours of downtime, and each skill check they perform represents an hour of work. They can either take a rest and benefit from natural healing, or perform several skill checks with the possibility of losing needed sleep (and now they're going to be making Resilience checks to avoid the effects of sleep deprivation). The possibilities are endless if you just keep it centered in the narrative and don't apply a hard and fast rule in an attempt to "fix" a perceived problem.