Sorry this is late! (stupid all morning long work meeting...)

Our rules are simple. This week we will only consider canon material again. Rogue Group is seen in the Battle of Hoth, and Black Squadron in the Battle of Yavin.

Rogue Group:

The Rebel squadron "Rogue group" was responsible for defending Echo Base in the Battle of Hoth. They flew T-47 Airspeeders and battled against an Imperial force that was superior in numbers and fire power. Some of the notable members are Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antilles, and Wes Janson. They successfully downed several AT-ATs and held off the Imperial forces long enough for the Rebel forces to evacuate.

Vs.

Black Squadron:

Stationed on the first Deathstar and lead by Darth Vader, these pilots were chosen by the Sith lord as the most talented and ruthless of the Imperial Navy. When Grand Moff Tarkin refused to even acknowledge the prescience of the Rebel fighters at the Battle of Yavin, Black Squadron deployed without aid from the rest of the Imperial Navy. Vastly outnumbered, they were responsible for many Rebel casualties.

Who would win and why?

Maybe you should have done the 181st vs rogue squadron; maybe I don't know much about black squadron but I think it would be more fair

The most interesting thing to me is the action taking place outside the trench. Its reasonable to assume that the Deathstar's turbolasers were largely ineffectual due to Porkins being the only casualty and only after his systems started failing and also the Imperial officer saying the Rebel craft are too nimble. At the time of the first trench run 5 TIE fighters were facing 25 Rebel craft including Wedge and Luke. I would also say it would be fair to assume that the majority of combat outside the trench was over by the time of the third trench run where Wedge was hit since a few seconds later Luke launched his Proton torp.

That means 18 Rebel starfighters and 5 TIE fighters were killed off screen. Destroying over 3x the amount of enemy craft with inferior technology suggests the Black Squadron pilots were extremely deadly and efficient.

The fate of the unseen pilots is described in Legends material, which is better than blind speculation.

• Red Leader - Garven Dreis (Shot down by Darth Vader)
• Red Two - Wedge Antilles (Managed to retreat after sustaining damage to fighter)
• Red Three - Biggs Darklighter (Shot down by Darth Vader while covering Luke at trench)
• Red Four - John D. Branon (formerly Cesi Eirriss; Shot down by TIE fighters)
• Red Five - Luke Skywalker (formerly Jal Te Gniev; Destroyed the Death Star; saved by Han Solo)
• Red Six - Lt. Jek Tono Porkins (Destroyed; Debris from turret caused computer malfunctions)
• Red Seven - Elyhek Rue (Shot down by TIE fighters)
• Red Eight - Bren Quersey (Shot down by Darth Vader at trench while covering Dreis)
• Red Nine - Lt. Nozzo Naytaan (Shot down by TIE fighters)
• Red Ten - Theron Nett (Shot down by a TIE fighter at trench while covering Dreis)
• Red Eleven - Lt. Wenton Chan (Shot down during combat)
• Red Twelve - Puck Naeco (Shot down by Darth Vader at trench while covering Dreis)

Of those 12, 4 are killed by TIE fighters, which is one more than we see in ANH.

Black Squadron is entirely wiped out by the fighting at Yavin, meaning the other 6 are shot down off-screen. Most of these are attributed to Wedge by more Legends material, such as 'Chaser'.

In the Battle for Hoth, it's a testament to how skilled Rogue Group are that they managed to down a single one. They are flying civilian airspeeders only recently modified for use in such harsh conditions, with blasters incapable of downing an AT-AT alone. I assume the head on attack was used to give a clearer shot at the head of the AT-AT, presuming it's a weak spot.

I see what you are saying but did we ever see the Y-Wing actually engage the TIEs? I'm not entirely sure they ever did, especially since the X-Wings were supposed to be their cover. Even assuming they did, the Y-Wing was vastly inferior to the TIE, so I'm not even sure how you can account for their numbers. Especially because Gold squadron was not really an elite group to begin with. FWIW Red Squadron at Yavin wasn't exactly "Elite" like the later Rogue Groups/Squadrons were either. Also, we never saw exactly how many TIEs there were and only have books/other material to go off of on the count. Even Wookieepedia says "at least 8 TIE fighters". Could there have been a whole squadron? Very possible.

I think combining that with the fact that the rebels lost >6 ships in the trench itself when they weren't able to do anything but be a shooting gallery says a lot right there. And in the end, despite all of the free kills (>4) the X-Wings gave up, all of Black squadron was killed/disabled by the end.

Am I saying the Rebels would walk away unscathed? Of course not. But you have a laundry list of members of what was considered the most elite Rebel pilots in the Galaxy flying their preferred/superior ship against a presumably equal number of elite TIE pilots in their TIE/lns, and I don't think there is much hope for Black Squadron unless Vader carries the load pretty heavily.

I don't think you can take Hoth as an example of how a space battle would go. Honestly, you downplay it, but I think the fact they managed to kill as many AT-ATs as they did a pretty remarkable feat. Sure, their tactics were... questionable... but it's a movie, not a military documentary. The Empire would not have struck back at all if they had lost at Hoth....

I going off of what is currently considered canon where only Black Squadron out of the thousands of TIE fighters stationed on the Death Star engaged the rebels. Squadrons as I understood them contained 12 ships (but that is old EU stuff). Squadrons in the movies are far more nebulous. I'm using movies as my main reference which is where I'm pulling the 8 Black Squadron pilots from.

30 Rebel ships

-7 killed in the trenches

-1 (Porkins killed by turbolasers)

-3 (Survivors, 2 X-wings, 1 Y-wing)

= 19 Rebel Starfighters

vs

13 Imperial Ships (Giving you the benefit of the doubt and making Black Squadron 12 fighters)

-1 in Trench only (Darth Vader)

-2 in Trench only (Darth Vader's Black Squadron wingmen)

=10 Imperial TIE Fighters

19 vs 10. Even inflating Black Squadron's to numbers twice their onscreen amount they are still greatly outnumbered. This automatically takes away one of the very few advantages TIE Fighters have and they still manage to kill 19 Rebel craft off screen which is quite a feat no matter how you slice it.

Hoth is the only thing we have to gauge the skill of Rogue Group's pilots outside of Luke and Wedge and they suffered heavy losses by AT-ATs which isn't exactly a gold star in my book.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garven and Biggs were Vader, Porkins was Turbolasers. Black Squadron's main accomplishment was *almost* killing Luke and Biggs, unfortunately for them Wedge was there to blow them up.

Meanwhile, Rogue group is on Hoth tripping up multi-million credit state-of-the-art Siege vehicles with civilian airspeeders and tow-rope.

8 Black Squadron pilots* vs 30 Rebel Starfighters and Black Squadron lasted longer than 5 seconds and only 2 Rebel ships survived (not counting the Falcon). Under that massed firepower those TIES never should have gotten off a single shot.

Meanwhile, Rogue Group should have taken zero causalities on Hoth and should have downed all AT-AT's and AT-ST's. Fly in from the side = zero return fire. Complete air superiority means they get to choose their attack vector. Getting shot down by an AT-AT is the equivalent of an F-16 getting shot down by a T-72 tank. Pretty much only Wedge was worth anything in the air during that battle.

*Probably more Black Squadrons offscreen. Darth Vader and Deathstar gun emplacements made some kills.

The 30 Rebel Starfighters aren't attempting to engage Black Squadron, they are trying to destroy the Death Star before it can blow up Yavin IV.

A task they succeeded at.

The times Black Squadron fight Red squadron as Starfighter units, we see 2 TIEs killed vs 1 X-wing, who was caught by surprise.

Darth Vader and Black Squadron's kill in the Trench are rendered somewhat moot by the trench leaving no room for evasive maneuvering. I'm not sure how skilled one has to be to blast apart a Y-wing from behind while it makes no attempts to engage you or evade your fire.

A task I hope the would succeed at considering they outnumbered the Imperials at likely a 5:1 ratio and minimum of 2:1.

Remember the Rebels only went into the trench 3 at a time will the rest engaged the 6 TIE Fighters we saw on screen. Also note I'm not counting any ships that participated in the trench run and am mostly focusing on the action that happened outside of it and off-screen where 19 Rebels should have had no problem mopping up 6 TIE Fighters. By the end of the battle 18 of those Rebels were dead and one Y-wing survived at the cost of 6 TIE Fighters. That's among the best canon sourced Kill Death Ratio's I've heard about for the Imperials.

The fate of the unseen pilots is described in Legends material, which is better than blind speculation.

Black Squadron is entirely wiped out by the fighting at Yavin, meaning the other 6 are shot down off-screen. Most of these are attributed to Wedge by more Legends material, such as 'Chaser'.

In the Battle for Hoth, it's a testament to how skilled Rogue Group are that they managed to down a single one. They are flying civilian airspeeders only recently modified for use in such harsh conditions, with blasters incapable of downing an AT-AT alone. I assume the head on attack was used to give a clearer shot at the head of the AT-AT, presuming it's a weak spot.

I politely disagree that Legends is better than "blind speculation". Legends is even more unbalanced in the Rebels favor rendering any discussion moot. I'm not taking any Legends sourced material into my argument for that reason; Rebels auto-win vs anything.

EU Wedge + EU Luke vs the entire Separatist, Clone and Imperial armies at the same time and the Rebels win. Boring and who cares?

As for the AT-AT vs T-47 argument. Luke should have realized after the first head on pass that their armor was too strong even at the head and should have committed to side or rear attacks with the tow cables. The fact that he doubled-downed on the head on attack even after learning the danger and ended up costing the lives of several Rogue Group members suggests he was simply an unskilled commander at the time.

I'm not hating on the Battle of Hoth mind you. It's my favorite scene in all of Star Wars for the specific reason that it doesn't show the Rebels as an invincible force that is only slightly threatened by Darth Vader. Instead it shows a dynamic battle between two skilled opposing sides and the plot armor appears at its thinnest.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garven and Biggs were Vader, Porkins was Turbolasers. Black Squadron's main accomplishment was *almost* killing Luke and Biggs, unfortunately for them Wedge was there to blow them up.

Meanwhile, Rogue group is on Hoth tripping up multi-million credit state-of-the-art Siege vehicles with civilian airspeeders and tow-rope.

8 Black Squadron pilots* vs 30 Rebel Starfighters and Black Squadron lasted longer than 5 seconds and only 2 Rebel ships survived (not counting the Falcon). Under that massed firepower those TIES never should have gotten off a single shot.

Meanwhile, Rogue Group should have taken zero causalities on Hoth and should have downed all AT-AT's and AT-ST's. Fly in from the side = zero return fire. Complete air superiority means they get to choose their attack vector. Getting shot down by an AT-AT is the equivalent of an F-16 getting shot down by a T-72 tank. Pretty much only Wedge was worth anything in the air during that battle.

*Probably more Black Squadrons offscreen. Darth Vader and Deathstar gun emplacements made some kills.

The 30 Rebel Starfighters aren't attempting to engage Black Squadron, they are trying to destroy the Death Star before it can blow up Yavin IV.

A task they succeeded at.

The times Black Squadron fight Red squadron as Starfighter units, we see 2 TIEs killed vs 1 X-wing, who was caught by surprise.

Darth Vader and Black Squadron's kill in the Trench are rendered somewhat moot by the trench leaving no room for evasive maneuvering. I'm not sure how skilled one has to be to blast apart a Y-wing from behind while it makes no attempts to engage you or evade your fire.

A task I hope the would succeed at considering they outnumbered the Imperials at likely a 5:1 ratio and minimum of 2:1.

Remember the Rebels only went into the trench 3 at a time will the rest engaged the 6 TIE Fighters we saw on screen. Also note I'm not counting any ships that participated in the trench run and am mostly focusing on the action that happened outside of it and off-screen where 19 Rebels should have had no problem mopping up 6 TIE Fighters. By the end of the battle 18 of those Rebels were dead and one Y-wing survived at the cost of 6 TIE Fighters. That's among the best canon sourced Kill Death Ratio's I've heard about for the Imperials.

Dunno where this 19 ships is coming from- There are ~12 Red Squadron Pilots if you source the number from either the Roll Call in the film or EU material.

And EU says there are 6 or so Y-wings. The film says 3 in the trench + 1 that survived. Let's call it 6

That makes 18 Rebel craft tops, with 7 killed in the trench (3 + 3 + 1), with 3 survivors, meaning only 8 are killed outside the trench. Porkins bites the Turbolaser, so really only 7 are killed by a mixture of TIEs and ground fire, and that's being generous and giving you the EU Y-wings we never see. Meanwhile Black Squadron's survivors (I assume the 4 Han + Luke Killed earlier were part of the initial 12) are solely wiped out by ship to ship engagements, and none of them killed from behind in a trench.

Dunno where this 19 ships is coming from- There are ~12 Red Squadron Pilots if you source the number from either the Roll Call in the film or EU material.

And EU says there are 6 or so Y-wings. The film says 3 in the trench + 1 that survived. Let's call it 6

That makes 18 Rebel craft tops, with 7 killed in the trench (3 + 3 + 1), with 3 survivors, meaning only 8 are killed outside the trench. Porkins bites the Turbolaser, so really only 7 are killed by a mixture of TIEs and ground fire. Meanwhile Black Squadron's survivors (I assume the 4 Han + Luke Killed earlier were part of the initial 12) are solely wiped out by ship to ship engagements, and none of them killed from behind in a trench.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Yavin

Material is sourced only from the Canon tab and what is shown in the movie.

From the movie an Imperial officer declares "We count 30 Rebel ships Lord Vader."

@ the 3:14 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8

Probably best if we agree on the numbers/source material before continuing.

Dunno where this 19 ships is coming from- There are ~12 Red Squadron Pilots if you source the number from either the Roll Call in the film or EU material.

And EU says there are 6 or so Y-wings. The film says 3 in the trench + 1 that survived. Let's call it 6

That makes 18 Rebel craft tops, with 7 killed in the trench (3 + 3 + 1), with 3 survivors, meaning only 8 are killed outside the trench. Porkins bites the Turbolaser, so really only 7 are killed by a mixture of TIEs and ground fire. Meanwhile Black Squadron's survivors (I assume the 4 Han + Luke Killed earlier were part of the initial 12) are solely wiped out by ship to ship engagements, and none of them killed from behind in a trench.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Yavin

Material is sourced only from the Canon tab and what is shown in the movie.

From the movie an Imperial officer declares "We count 30 Rebel ships Lord Vader."

@ the 3:14 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8

Probably best if we agree on the numbers/source material before continuing.

When I click on the 'Red Squadron' tab, it gives me this:10 ships. The Gold Squadron tab gives me 3 ships

The source for the values of Red Squadron being 22 ships and Gold being 8 is just 'A New Hope', which is very vague, because the number isn't mentioned.

**** it! How are we supposed to argue about fictional combat units when the made up facts don't match up? I blame Stone37 for picking such a confusing set of squadrons.

Dunno where this 19 ships is coming from- There are ~12 Red Squadron Pilots if you source the number from either the Roll Call in the film or EU material.

And EU says there are 6 or so Y-wings. The film says 3 in the trench + 1 that survived. Let's call it 6

That makes 18 Rebel craft tops, with 7 killed in the trench (3 + 3 + 1), with 3 survivors, meaning only 8 are killed outside the trench. Porkins bites the Turbolaser, so really only 7 are killed by a mixture of TIEs and ground fire. Meanwhile Black Squadron's survivors (I assume the 4 Han + Luke Killed earlier were part of the initial 12) are solely wiped out by ship to ship engagements, and none of them killed from behind in a trench.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Yavin

Material is sourced only from the Canon tab and what is shown in the movie.

From the movie an Imperial officer declares "We count 30 Rebel ships Lord Vader."

@ the 3:14 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8

Probably best if we agree on the numbers/source material before continuing.

When I click on the 'Red Squadron' tab, it gives me this:10 ships. The Gold Squadron tab gives me 3 ships

The source for the values of Red Squadron being 22 ships and Gold being 8 is just 'A New Hope', which is very vague, because the number isn't mentioned.

**** it! How are we supposed to argue about fictional combat units when the made up facts don't match up? I blame Stone37 for picking such a confusing set of squadrons.

Well I would say the movie itself trumps all source material. The youtube link I provided is where the 30 Rebel ships come from. I highly doubt George Lucas imagined anyone caring about that one line of dialogue nearly 40 years later! But its the number I'm sticking to.

Dunno where this 19 ships is coming from- There are ~12 Red Squadron Pilots if you source the number from either the Roll Call in the film or EU material.

And EU says there are 6 or so Y-wings. The film says 3 in the trench + 1 that survived. Let's call it 6

That makes 18 Rebel craft tops, with 7 killed in the trench (3 + 3 + 1), with 3 survivors, meaning only 8 are killed outside the trench. Porkins bites the Turbolaser, so really only 7 are killed by a mixture of TIEs and ground fire. Meanwhile Black Squadron's survivors (I assume the 4 Han + Luke Killed earlier were part of the initial 12) are solely wiped out by ship to ship engagements, and none of them killed from behind in a trench.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Yavin

Material is sourced only from the Canon tab and what is shown in the movie.

From the movie an Imperial officer declares "We count 30 Rebel ships Lord Vader."

@ the 3:14 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8

Probably best if we agree on the numbers/source material before continuing.

When I click on the 'Red Squadron' tab, it gives me this:10 ships. The Gold Squadron tab gives me 3 ships

The source for the values of Red Squadron being 22 ships and Gold being 8 is just 'A New Hope', which is very vague, because the number isn't mentioned.

**** it! How are we supposed to argue about fictional combat units when the made up facts don't match up? I blame Stone37 for picking such a confusing set of squadrons.

Well I would say the movie itself trumps all source material. The youtube link I provided is where the 30 Rebel ships come from. I highly doubt George Lucas imagined anyone caring about that one line of dialogue nearly 40 years later! But its the number I'm sticking to.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

Well I would safely (I hope) assume that the Imperial officer was referring to 30 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and not say 15 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and "like 15 kinda just hanging out on the other side of Yavin".

http://imgur.com/pSQvr9m Excuse the crappy Paint job, but I count 27 in that screenshot. Coupled with the Imperial officer claiming 30 I feel pretty confident in sticking with that number.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

Well I would safely (I hope) assume that the Imperial officer was referring to 30 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and not say 15 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and "like 15 kinda just hanging out on the other side of Yavin".

http://imgur.com/pSQvr9m Excuse the crappy Paint job, but I count 27 in that screenshot. Coupled with the Imperial officer claiming 30 I feel pretty confident in sticking with that number.

Excuse my crappier paint job, and we'll see the original version, before Geroge spaffed CGI over his magnum opus.

http://i.imgur.com/1U2l8Xb.jpg

14 X-wings, 3 Y-wings. The ones in the 'Special editions' can be chalked up to Prequelitis.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

Well I would safely (I hope) assume that the Imperial officer was referring to 30 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and not say 15 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and "like 15 kinda just hanging out on the other side of Yavin".

http://imgur.com/pSQvr9m Excuse the crappy Paint job, but I count 27 in that screenshot. Coupled with the Imperial officer claiming 30 I feel pretty confident in sticking with that number.

Excuse my crappier paint job, and we'll see the original version, before Geroge spaffed CGI over his magnum opus.

http://i.imgur.com/1U2l8Xb.jpg

14 X-wings, 3 Y-wings. The ones in the 'Special editions' can be chalked up to Prequelitis.

For the record: I'm still counting 30 rebel ships for my main argument.

However, even allowing for your very.... specific number of Rebel ships and NOT counting EU source material.

18 Rebels

-1 X-wing (Porkins downed by turbolaser)

-3 Y-wings (Trench 1)

-3 X-Wings (Trench 2)

-3 X-Wings (Trench 3 Biggs KIA Luke + Wedge survive)

-1 Y-wing (Survivor)

= 7 Rebels killed by off screen and out of trench by Black Squadron

vs

9 Imperials

-1 Darth Vader (Hanging out in Trench)

-2 Black Squadron pilots (Hanging out in Trench)

=6 Black Squadron pilots killed outside of trench

By the time of the first Trench run 1 X-wing and 2 TIE Fighters have been shot down not counting Porkins.

3 Y-wings break off for the trench run

Darth and 2 BSP pilots pursue Y-wings in trench

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 14 Rebel fighter CAP including Wedge and Luke.

By the time of the second trench run the 14 Rebel fighter CAP is reduced by 3 as 3 of the X-wings begin their attack.

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 11 Rebel fighter CAP including Wedge and Luke.

By the time of the third trench run the 11 Rebel fighter CAP is reduced by 3 as Wedge, Luke and Biggs begin their attack.

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 8 Rebel fighter CAP including the surviving Y-wing.

Somewhere off screen between the start of the trench runs up until the Death Star is destroyed Black Squadron is ALWAYS outnumbered yet manage to end up with a positive KDR. Which against X-wings is practically unheard of.

Even gimping them as much as possible I wouldn't discount Black Squadron so easily.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

Well I would safely (I hope) assume that the Imperial officer was referring to 30 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and not say 15 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and "like 15 kinda just hanging out on the other side of Yavin".

http://imgur.com/pSQvr9m Excuse the crappy Paint job, but I count 27 in that screenshot. Coupled with the Imperial officer claiming 30 I feel pretty confident in sticking with that number.

Excuse my crappier paint job, and we'll see the original version, before Geroge spaffed CGI over his magnum opus.

http://i.imgur.com/1U2l8Xb.jpg

14 X-wings, 3 Y-wings. The ones in the 'Special editions' can be chalked up to Prequelitis.

For the record: I'm still counting 30 rebel ships for my main argument.

However, even allowing for your very.... specific number of Rebel ships and NOT counting EU source material.

18 Rebels

-1 X-wing (Porkins downed by turbolaser)

-3 Y-wings (Trench 1)

-3 X-Wings (Trench 2)

-3 X-Wings (Trench 3 Biggs KIA Luke + Wedge survive)

-1 Y-wing (Survivor)

= 7 Rebels killed by off screen and out of trench by Black Squadron

vs

9 Imperials

-1 Darth Vader (Hanging out in Trench)

-2 Black Squadron pilots (Hanging out in Trench)

=6 Black Squadron pilots killed outside of trench

By the time of the first Trench run 1 X-wing and 2 TIE Fighters have been shot down not counting Porkins.

3 Y-wings break off for the trench run

Darth and 2 BSP pilots pursue Y-wings in trench

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 14 Rebel fighter CAP including Wedge and Luke.

By the time of the second trench run the 14 Rebel fighter CAP is reduced by 3 as 3 of the X-wings begin their attack.

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 11 Rebel fighter CAP including Wedge and Luke.

By the time of the third trench run the 11 Rebel fighter CAP is reduced by 3 as Wedge, Luke and Biggs begin their attack.

That leaves 4 BSP's vs 8 Rebel fighter CAP including the surviving Y-wing.

Somewhere off screen between the start of the trench runs up until the Death Star is destroyed Black Squadron is ALWAYS outnumbered yet manage to end up with a positive KDR. Which against X-wings is practically unheard of.

Even gimping them as much as possible I wouldn't discount Black Squadron so easily.

Well you're assuming that all the X-wings killed offscreen die due to the actions of Black Squadron. However, as has been established, a Turbolaser is perfectly capable of hitting and destroying an X-Wing. With a laser of that size, it only has to get lucky once.

And if we want purist 'film only' 100% to the max, there is no difference in combat capability between an X-wing and a TIE fighter. They both have no trouble one-shotting each other, and in fact the TIE is more maneuverable, making the kills worth less.

Most of our preconceptions regarding the various flight mechanics and firepower of the two ships comes from non-canon sources.

Well you're assuming that all the X-wings killed offscreen die due to the actions of Black Squadron. However, as has been established, a Turbolaser is perfectly capable of hitting and destroying an X-Wing. With a laser of that size, it only has to get lucky once.

And if we want purist 'film only' 100% to the max, there is no difference in combat capability between an X-wing and a TIE fighter. They both have no trouble one-shotting each other, and in fact the TIE is more maneuverable, making the kills worth less.

Most of our preconceptions regarding the various flight mechanics and firepower of the two ships comes from non-canon sources.

Porkins was only hit due to suffering a malfunction. No other Rebel ships were shown hit and an Imperial officer is quoted as saying "but they're so small their avoiding our turbolasers" to which Darth Vader replied "Then we'll have to destroy them ship to ship"

I still maintain the Turbolasers were large ineffectual especially since the first part of the attack was taking out the Turbolasers around the engagement zone cutting their effectiveness even further.

I also disagree that they is no difference in combat capability. TIE Fighters shot anywhere blow up and die in one shot throughout the entire movie. Meanwhile X-wings need to be shot in a specific spot in the rear to be one shot. Luke is shown taking multiple hits and Wedge gets merely damaged taking a direct hit. Plenty of examples of the X-wings increased damage resistance.

Well you're assuming that all the X-wings killed offscreen die due to the actions of Black Squadron. However, as has been established, a Turbolaser is perfectly capable of hitting and destroying an X-Wing. With a laser of that size, it only has to get lucky once.

And if we want purist 'film only' 100% to the max, there is no difference in combat capability between an X-wing and a TIE fighter. They both have no trouble one-shotting each other, and in fact the TIE is more maneuverable, making the kills worth less.

Most of our preconceptions regarding the various flight mechanics and firepower of the two ships comes from non-canon sources.

Porkins was only hit due to suffering a malfunction. No other Rebel ships were shown hit and an Imperial officer is quoted as saying "but they're so small their avoiding our turbolasers" to which Darth Vader replied "Then we'll have to destroy them ship to ship"

I still maintain the Turbolasers were large ineffectual especially since the first part of the attack was taking out the Turbolasers around the engagement zone cutting their effectiveness even further.

I also disagree that they is no difference in combat capability. TIE Fighters shot anywhere blow up and die in one shot throughout the entire movie. Meanwhile X-wings need to be shot in a specific spot in the rear to be one shot. Luke is shown taking multiple hits and Wedge gets merely damaged taking a direct hit. Plenty of examples of the X-wings increased damage resistance.

I say that was Plot Armour. All the other X-wings such as Garven, Biggs, or any of the others + the Y-Wings pop into nice orange fireballs after one shot.

I say that was Plot Armour. All the other X-wings such as Garven, Biggs, or any of the others + the Y-Wings pop into nice orange fireballs after one shot.

Luke? Sure, plot armor all the way. Wedge? Didn't really need it, he wasn't any more of critical character in ANH than any other rebel pilot with 0-5 lines.

Luke? Sure, plot armor all the way. Wedge? Didn't really need it, he wasn't any more of critical character in ANH than any other rebel pilot with 0-5 lines.

Ah, but Wedge's hit was so damaging he couldn't maintain a straight line, pretty critical hit, and only one laser hit did it.

Either that, or George had already planned Wedge to be a recurring character.

But the '30 ships' line could describe anything, including the numerous other attacks described in the EU material (which got more and more ridiculous as each one tried to out do the other). The fact is, Red Squadron roll-calls up to 11 pilots, so unless there were 19 Y-wings trundling around, there can't be 30 rebel fighters attacking the trench.

Well I would safely (I hope) assume that the Imperial officer was referring to 30 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and not say 15 Rebel ships attacking the Death Star and "like 15 kinda just hanging out on the other side of Yavin".

http://imgur.com/pSQvr9m Excuse the crappy Paint job, but I count 27 in that screenshot. Coupled with the Imperial officer claiming 30 I feel pretty confident in sticking with that number.

Excuse my crappier paint job, and we'll see the original version, before Geroge spaffed CGI over his magnum opus.

http://i.imgur.com/1U2l8Xb.jpg

14 X-wings, 3 Y-wings. The ones in the 'Special editions' can be chalked up to Prequelitis.

But in that case an extra Y wing pops into existence durign the battle. Because all three Ys on the trench run get vaped, and an unnamed one goes home with luke and wedge... or is the surviving Y an addition? Either way, love it or hate it, the most recent version with all of its spangly tat is the cannon verison, and the version which agrees with the nice man with the smart uniform and all the lovely scanning equipment.

Another great Friday Fights! I'm already looking forward to next week's.

Another great Friday Fights! I'm already looking forward to next week's.

Do you have an idea or should I say something belligerent again?

We should turn these Friday night fights into actual combat simulations: Agree on squad number, ships, pilots, and upgrades for each faction, and have people pair up to play them out, and then report back. We could aggregate the data to compare KDR and W/L, and the only [in]dependent (? could never keep those straight in high school) variable would be player skill, which as we all know is not as important as dice rolling or net-decking.

We should turn these Friday night fights into actual combat simulations: Agree on squad number, ships, pilots, and upgrades for each faction, and have people pair up to play them out, and then report back. We could aggregate the data to compare KDR and W/L, and the only [in]dependent (? could never keep those straight in high school) variable would be player skill, which as we all know is not as important as dice rolling or net-decking.

Love this idea.

Looking online I found a list of Black Squadron pilots. How's this:

TIE Advanced: •Darth Vader (33)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/x1 (0)

•Squad Leader (2)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

TIE Fighter: •"Mauler Mithel" (20)

Marksmanship (3)

TIE Fighter: •"Dark Curse" (16)

TIE Fighter: •"Backstabber" (16)

TIE Fighter: •"Wampa" (14)

Total: 99/100