Sorry this is late! (stupid all morning long work meeting...)

Our rules are simple. This week we will only consider canon material again. Rogue Group is seen in the Battle of Hoth, and Black Squadron in the Battle of Yavin.

Rogue Group:

The Rebel squadron "Rogue group" was responsible for defending Echo Base in the Battle of Hoth. They flew T-47 Airspeeders and battled against an Imperial force that was superior in numbers and fire power. Some of the notable members are Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antilles, and Wes Janson. They successfully downed several AT-ATs and held off the Imperial forces long enough for the Rebel forces to evacuate.

Vs.

Black Squadron:

Stationed on the first Deathstar and lead by Darth Vader, these pilots were chosen by the Sith lord as the most talented and ruthless of the Imperial Navy. When Grand Moff Tarkin refused to even acknowledge the prescience of the Rebel fighters at the Battle of Yavin, Black Squadron deployed without aid from the rest of the Imperial Navy. Vastly outnumbered, they were responsible for many Rebel casualties.

Who would win and why?

Rogue Squadron sought to destroy the death star, black to defend it. I don't see any death stars

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

Rogue Squadron sought to destroy the death star, black to defend it. I don't see any death stars

We're sticking to canon here today. That was Red Squadron that fought in the Battle of Yavin. Two of its surviving members were a part of Rogue group.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Rogue Group. The 2 veterans (Luke (Rogue Leader) and Wedge (Rogue 3)) are seen shooting down several Black Squadron TIE Fighters with Wedge shooting down Dark Curse (although that pilot being Dark Curse is now Legends I guess). Black Squadron meanwhile shoots down several X-wings and Y-wings in a shooting gallery Trench Run, while failing to do any significant damage in a fair dogfight against a ragtag group of rookie pilots. Meanwhile Rogue Group destroys several AT-ATs in a heroic rear vanguard fight, losing only 4-5 Members (2 speeders shot down, Dak killed).

We also have to remember that while Red Group at the Battle of Endor isn't canonically Rogue Group, it includes surviving members of Rogue Group.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Porkins was a ground battery kill, not a Black Squadron kill. Also, Biggs was killed in a trench with no maneuvering room, and Garven was killed attempting to escape from said trench.

Rogue Squadron sought to destroy the death star, black to defend it. I don't see any death stars

We're sticking to canon here today. That was Red Squadron that fought in the Battle of Yavin. Two of its surviving members were a part of Rogue group.

I didn't realize ROTJ had been decannonized

Rogue Squadron sought to destroy the death star, black to defend it. I don't see any death stars

We're sticking to canon here today. That was Red Squadron that fought in the Battle of Yavin. Two of its surviving members were a part of Rogue group.

I didn't realize ROTJ had been decannonized

Strictly canonically speaking, Rogue Group in ESB, and Red Group in RotJ are considered separate entities, despite Every surviving member of Rogue Group being in Red Group.

Rogue Squadron sought to destroy the death star, black to defend it. I don't see any death stars

We're sticking to canon here today. That was Red Squadron that fought in the Battle of Yavin. Two of its surviving members were a part of Rogue group.

I didn't realize ROTJ had been decannonized

Strictly canonically speaking, Rogue Group in ESB, and Red Group in RotJ are considered separate entities, despite Every surviving member of Rogue Group being in Red Group.

What the =%_€

Imperials will always pretty much auto-lose due to plot reasons, but I'm going to make the best case I can. Going from whats currently canon at the time known members of Rogue group were:

Wedge Antilles -Pilot
Wes Janson -Gunner

Luke Skywalker -Pilot
Dak Ralter -Gunner

Derek "Hobbie" Klivian -Pilot
(unnamed gunner) assumed Rogue Group -Gunner

Zev Senesca -Pilot
(unnamed gunner) assumed Rogue Group -Gunner

Of those pilots Luke and Zev were shot down and Derek purposely ran his T-47 into an AT-AT and ejected. The Battle of Hoth was not kind to Rogue Group.

-50% of the known members were shot down by AT-AT's including its leader Luke.

-Luke shows incredibly abysmal tactical leadership in constantly ordering head-on attack runs at AT-AT's who are armed with only forward facing guns that result in multiple causalities.

- The AT-AT is perhaps the worst anti-air vehicle ever created and they still racked up an impressive amount of kills.

-Only 3 AT-AT's are considered officially destroyed with one being taken out by Luke on the ground. A fourth AT-AT was damaged by Derek's intentional ramming action.

-On screen it appeared Rogue Group enjoyed complete air superiority (obviously not space) and still struggled to be effective.

My conclusion is that Rogue Group got their buts firmly handed to them in the Battle of Hoth despite achieving their strategic goal, especially if you consider all T-47's showed onscreen were part of Rogue Group. But T-47's are not X-wings so we need to take that into account as well.

Meanwhile Black Squadron (+Darth Vader) with 8 confirmed on screen (12 assumed) pilots took on the full force of 30 Alliance starfighters including 22 X-wings and 8 Y-wings. Granted the Deathstar's Turbolasers helped, but these guns were meant for larger craft and were not true AA batteries. While Darth Vader also killed a high number of ships personally, for being in under-powered craft Black Squadron pilots more than held their own against a technologically and numerically superior force.

Rogue Group vs. Black Squadron has Black Squadron slightly in the lead on paper. I say this because Black Squadron fared so well against named Red and Gold Squadron pilots and Rogue Group did not establish itself as well on Hoth. Wedge and Luke would be the real threats to Black Squadron and plot armor would see them through. Take away the plot armor and it would come down to how many Black Squadron pilots would be left by the time Wedge and Luke are the only ones still flying, if there are 4+ I will give the edge to the Imps, anything less than 4 I think Wedge and Luke could handle pretty well on their own.

Rouge group destroyed only 2 AT-AT's in the battle of Hoth. And one of those was taken out by Luke Skywalker after he had been shot down. You could argue that that one doesn't count as a Rouge group kill.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garvin and Biggs were basically in a shooting gallery for arguably the best pilot in the galaxy... and Prokins was shot down by DS crossfire. I would hardly count that as being a stellar track record. The Rebels practically lined up to die to Vader to complete the mission. And in the end, they won and all of Black Squadron, save Vader, was killed.

If we assume a normal space battle between the two, where the Rebels are not sacrificing themselves left and right, I cannot imagine it would somehow go BETTER for Black Squadron. Especially if you take relatively middling pilots like Garvin and Biggs and replace them with Wes, Hobbie,Keyan, etc.

Wait. is Rogue Group flying T-47s against TIEs?

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garven and Biggs were Vader, Porkins was Turbolasers. Black Squadron's main accomplishment was *almost* killing Luke and Biggs, unfortunately for them Wedge was there to blow them up.

Meanwhile, Rogue group is on Hoth tripping up multi-million credit state-of-the-art Siege vehicles with civilian airspeeders and tow-rope.

Rogue would be flying X-wings while the Blacks were on Tie\Ln, that gives Rogues a huge advantage. Both groups have some of the best pilots from each faction: Rogue's from the veterans of the Yavin and Black Squadron mostly hand picked by Darth Vader. Considering the technological advantage I would give the rogues my vote.

BUT

If the BS switches to the Tie Interceptor (that was introduced after Yavin, is a much closer battle. And when we considerer that Vader is probably the best pilot in the galaxy, a veteran from dozens of battles during the Clone Wars, he alone would make short work of half the Rogues

Wait. is Rogue Group flying T-47s against TIEs?

The idea is to ignore "plot armor" and pit the two groups against one another. Skill vs Skill.

Wait. is Rogue Group flying T-47s against TIEs?

The idea is to ignore "plot armor" and pit the two groups against one another. Skill vs Skill.

Well in that case, the TIEs achieve a higher altitude the airspeeders can't match, and begin diving runs over and over until their enemies are all killed.

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garven and Biggs were Vader, Porkins was Turbolasers. Black Squadron's main accomplishment was *almost* killing Luke and Biggs, unfortunately for them Wedge was there to blow them up.

Meanwhile, Rogue group is on Hoth tripping up multi-million credit state-of-the-art Siege vehicles with civilian airspeeders and tow-rope.

8 Black Squadron pilots* vs 30 Rebel Starfighters and Black Squadron lasted longer than 5 seconds and only 2 Rebel ships survived (not counting the Falcon). Under that massed firepower those TIES never should have gotten off a single shot.

Meanwhile, Rogue Group should have taken zero causalities on Hoth and should have downed all AT-AT's and AT-ST's. Fly in from the side = zero return fire. Complete air superiority means they get to choose their attack vector. Getting shot down by an AT-AT is the equivalent of an F-16 getting shot down by a T-72 tank. Pretty much only Wedge was worth anything in the air during that battle.

*Probably more Black Squadrons offscreen. Darth Vader and Deathstar gun emplacements made some kills.

Rogue would be flying X-wings while the Blacks were on Tie\Ln, that gives Rogues a huge advantage. Both groups have some of the best pilots from each faction: Rogue's from the veterans of the Yavin and Black Squadron mostly hand picked by Darth Vader. Considering the technological advantage I would give the rogues my vote.

BUT

If the BS switches to the Tie Interceptor (that was introduced after Yavin, is a much closer battle. And when we considerer that Vader is probably the best pilot in the galaxy, a veteran from dozens of battles during the Clone Wars, he alone would make short work of half the Rogues

Only Luke and Wedge survived Yavin out Red and Gold Squadron. Black Squadron was equipped with inferior craft but managed to take on a numerically and technologically superior force (8 TIES vs 30 Rebels). Outside of Wedge and Luke, I would confidently say Black Squadron were the better pilots.

Part of this depends on how you think Wes, Hobbie, Dak and Zev stack up against Garvin, Porkins, Biggs and the rest of Gold and Red Squadrons and by what degree.

Wither it was in the trenches or out in space around the Death Star, the constant scene shown between 30+ X-wings and Y-wings vs. 7 TIEs and an Advanced is:

I think the Rebels were out matched here and on Hoth. The Empire looses two Death Stars to stupid pride, not lack of skill or ability.

Alright I just re-watched the Battle of Yavin. Slight correction at the end of the battle 2 X-wings (Luke + Wedge) a Y-wing and the Falcon survived. After revisiting this I actually think Rogue Group is worse off than before due to how great the Black Squadron pilots are.

Before the first trench run:

-Porkins died due to a possible malfunction and was killed by the Deathstar's gun emplacements

-6 Black Squadron pilots flew in against 21 X-wings and 8 Y-wings (6 vs 29)

-1 X-wing is killed by a Black Squadron pilot (6 vs 28)

-1 Black Squadron pilot is killed by Luke (5 vs 28)

-Gold Squadron Leader and 2 Y-wings break off for the 1st Trench run. (5 vs 25)

-Darth Vader takes 2 Black Squadron pilots and heads to the hangar bar (has not been in the fight yet)

-Luke is hit by a Black Squadron pilot and "can't shake him"

-1 Black Squadron pilot is killed by Wedge (4 vs 25)

>>First Trench run << 3 Imps vs 3 Rebels (2 TIES + Darth v. 3 Y-wings)

-1 Y-wing killed by Darth

-1 Y-wing killed by Darth

-1 Y-wing killed by Darth

>> Second Trench Run << 3 Imps vs 3 Rebels

>4(ish) Black Squadron pilots vs 22(ish) Rebels outside of trench<

-1 X-wing killed by Darth

-1 X-wing killed by Black Squadron pilot (Darth's wingman)

-1 X-wing killed by Darth (Garven)

>>Third Trench Run<< 3 Imps vs 3 Rebels

>4(ish) Black Squadron pilots vs 19(ish) Rebels outside of trench<

-Wedge is disabled by Black Squadron pilot (Darth's wingman)

-Biggs is killed by Darth

-1 Black Squadron pilot is killed by Han Solo

-1 Black Squadron pilot is killed by Han Solo (collision with BS pilot killed by Han)

-Darth is disabled by Han

Score:
Darth = 6 Kills

Black Squadron pilot 1 = 1 Kill (+Damaged Luke)

Black Squadron pilot 2 (Darth Vader's wingmate) = 1 Kill (+Damaged Wedge)

Total onscreen kills = 8

Han Solo = 2 Kills

Wedge = 1 Kill

Luke = 1 Kill

Total onscreen kills = 4

The most interesting thing to me is the action taking place outside the trench. Its reasonable to assume that the Deathstar's turbolasers were largely ineffectual due to Porkins being the only casualty and only after his systems started failing and also the Imperial officer saying the Rebel craft are too nimble. At the time of the first trench run 5 TIE fighters were facing 25 Rebel craft including Wedge and Luke. I would also say it would be fair to assume that the majority of combat outside the trench was over by the time of the third trench run where Wedge was hit since a few seconds later Luke launched his Proton torp.

That means 18 Rebel starfighters and 5 TIE fighters were killed off screen. Destroying over 3x the amount of enemy craft with inferior technology suggests the Black Squadron pilots were extremely deadly and efficient.

Rogue would be flying X-wings while the Blacks were on Tie\Ln, that gives Rogues a huge advantage. Both groups have some of the best pilots from each faction: Rogue's from the veterans of the Yavin and Black Squadron mostly hand picked by Darth Vader. Considering the technological advantage I would give the rogues my vote.

BUT

If the BS switches to the Tie Interceptor (that was introduced after Yavin, is a much closer battle. And when we considerer that Vader is probably the best pilot in the galaxy, a veteran from dozens of battles during the Clone Wars, he alone would make short work of half the Rogues

Only Luke and Wedge survived Yavin out Red and Gold Squadron. Black Squadron was equipped with inferior craft but managed to take on a numerically and technologically superior force (8 TIES vs 30 Rebels). Outside of Wedge and Luke, I would confidently say Black Squadron were the better pilots.

Part of this depends on how you think Wes, Hobbie, Dak and Zev stack up against Garvin, Porkins, Biggs and the rest of Gold and Red Squadrons and by what degree.

I see what you are saying but did we ever see the Y-Wing actually engage the TIEs? I'm not entirely sure they ever did, especially since the X-Wings were supposed to be their cover. Even assuming they did, the Y-Wing was vastly inferior to the TIE, so I'm not even sure how you can account for their numbers. Especially because Gold squadron was not really an elite group to begin with. FWIW Red Squadron at Yavin wasn't exactly "Elite" like the later Rogue Groups/Squadrons were either. Also, we never saw exactly how many TIEs there were and only have books/other material to go off of on the count. Even Wookieepedia says "at least 8 TIE fighters". Could there have been a whole squadron? Very possible.

I think combining that with the fact that the rebels lost >6 ships in the trench itself when they weren't able to do anything but be a shooting gallery says a lot right there. And in the end, despite all of the free kills (>4) the X-Wings gave up, all of Black squadron was killed/disabled by the end.

Am I saying the Rebels would walk away unscathed? Of course not. But you have a laundry list of members of what was considered the most elite Rebel pilots in the Galaxy flying their preferred/superior ship against a presumably equal number of elite TIE pilots in their TIE/lns, and I don't think there is much hope for Black Squadron unless Vader carries the load pretty heavily.

I don't think you can take Hoth as an example of how a space battle would go. Honestly, you downplay it, but I think the fact they managed to kill as many AT-ATs as they did a pretty remarkable feat. Sure, their tactics were... questionable... but it's a movie, not a military documentary. The Empire would not have struck back at all if they had lost at Hoth....

Black Squadron wins - snowspeeders would just float dead in space.

The counter argument is that Black Squadron was already mostly dead by the time Rogue Group was formed...

Rogues win in X-Wings vs. Black Squadron, even if Vader is present. Luke, Biggs, Hobbie, Wes... it's a who's who of Rebel Pilots in Rogue Group. Vader/Backstabber/Mauler/Curse lost at Yavin to Luke + Wedge + Derps. Adding more star power only makes it worse for the Empire.

Tell that to Garvin, Porkins, and Biggs. All confirmed kills for Black Squadron.

Garven and Biggs were Vader, Porkins was Turbolasers. Black Squadron's main accomplishment was *almost* killing Luke and Biggs, unfortunately for them Wedge was there to blow them up.

Meanwhile, Rogue group is on Hoth tripping up multi-million credit state-of-the-art Siege vehicles with civilian airspeeders and tow-rope.

8 Black Squadron pilots* vs 30 Rebel Starfighters and Black Squadron lasted longer than 5 seconds and only 2 Rebel ships survived (not counting the Falcon). Under that massed firepower those TIES never should have gotten off a single shot.

Meanwhile, Rogue Group should have taken zero causalities on Hoth and should have downed all AT-AT's and AT-ST's. Fly in from the side = zero return fire. Complete air superiority means they get to choose their attack vector. Getting shot down by an AT-AT is the equivalent of an F-16 getting shot down by a T-72 tank. Pretty much only Wedge was worth anything in the air during that battle.

*Probably more Black Squadrons offscreen. Darth Vader and Deathstar gun emplacements made some kills.

The 30 Rebel Starfighters aren't attempting to engage Black Squadron, they are trying to destroy the Death Star before it can blow up Yavin IV.

A task they succeeded at.

The times Black Squadron fight Red squadron as Starfighter units, we see 2 TIEs killed vs 1 X-wing, who was caught by surprise.

Darth Vader and Black Squadron's kill in the Trench are rendered somewhat moot by the trench leaving no room for evasive maneuvering. I'm not sure how skilled one has to be to blast apart a Y-wing from behind while it makes no attempts to engage you or evade your fire.