Because we needed another one of these.

I've been ruminating on these things for a small while now, and came to notice some stunning moments.

1^st: Youngster + Rage can fly with 7 Academy Pilots, and can be very effective in so doing.

​However, this list does restrict its own movement for 2 turns, and actively loses an action for each action it gains with Rage.

This list really wants to Rage in pulses: 4 ships rage, then the other 4 ships rage, so you have a consistent stream of damage.

​2^nd: Youngster + Rage can fly with Epsilon Leader and Wampa, and be even more effective.

Epsilon Leader cuts the stress down to manageable levels, and can do so even when the swarm takes White maneuvers.

Wampa provides a threat to the Aces, and I'll get into this match-up later.

​3^rd: A Rageswarm has no native counter to ships whose expected damage mitigation is >2.

​A trait shared by the Howlrunner swarm: If Soontir Fel and company are going to crop up with 2 evade results every time they're attacked, you need some tricks around this.

Wampa is great for this, as the ships in question are terrified of him.

​4^th: Swarms can block Soontir Fel more effectively than just about any fleet in the game.

​You don't need as much effort to predict where he'll be: he's stuck with Green Maneuvers, and only becomes unpredictable if you fail to block him.

You have ships to spare to the effort, although some rudimentary prediction skills will help to cull the number of blocker potentiates to a more ideal level.

If necessary, you can just plonk your entire formation into his movepath. He's gonna hit one of them!

​5^th: Youngster does not share Howlrunner's greatest weakness.

Yes, when he dies, your fleet should see a dentist as its teeth were catastrophically blunted. This is shared with Howlie.

However, Youngster has a much longer leash.

​A) His ability is Range 1-3, so he can be entirely out of range or far out of arc when your Swarm is at Range 1 of their victim.

B) You've gotten full use of his ability before he activates, as you can even have Epsilon Leader take their action before you flip his dial.

C) You can have your lower PS ships move into range of him before taking their action, before he moves away.

​Therefore, rather than being in the thick of the swarm, he can be well out of range of your opponents, or far out of arc, or hiding in asteroids or what have you.

Play the distance game to keep him alive. Hell, there's a 2 turn cooldown for the 8-ship swarm version of the fleet anyway, so he can range even farther afield.

​6^th: Drawing from the 5th postulate, Youngster can be used as a non-formational Bait ship.

Basically, he's Priority no. 1 for your opponents to kill early. They will chase him.

If they're chasing Youngster, you're dictating where your opponent is moving. With a 16 point ship (or 19 with stealth/hull)

Meanwhile, you're getting full benefit from his ability, as your swarm that are chasing the enemy are moving into range and taking their action before he darts away in another evasive direction!

T​IE Fighters are fairly fragile when your maneuvers leave them in gunsights.

Youngster, however, is basically playing the part of a Rabbit, and has the dial to do so.

Move quickly, aye, but move unpredictably, and never be where the chaser can actually bite you.
​Your hornet friends will take care of the rest.

Meh. TIE fighter is still just a rat in a cage.

Meh. TIE fighter is still just a rat in a cage.

While I appreciate the Smashing Pumpkins reference, I am rather saddened by the diminutive dismissal.

​Are you running an obvious counter to the list?

Imho the youngster rage swarm idea goes best with tie fos. You can still get 6 ships total but most importantly you can hard turn green the following turn combined with ep leader you can rage everyone but youngster each turn. Youngster can hang back and hide behind a stealth device or something just evading. My two cents.

Imho the youngster rage swarm idea goes best with tie fos. You can still get 6 ships total but most importantly you can hard turn green the following turn combined with ep leader you can rage everyone but youngster each turn. Youngster can hang back and hide behind a stealth device or something just evading. My two cents.

Those Green 1s and the Shield are lovely, but I run 7-8 ships in my swarm, rather than 6.

​And notably, vs TLTs, 3hp = 4hp (until you can no-sell one of their attacks, which gives you +1 hp).

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

Meh. TIE fighter is still just a rat in a cage.

While I appreciate the Smashing Pumpkins reference, I am rather saddened by the diminutive dismissal.

​Are you running an obvious counter to the list?

I just think it's too great a sacrifice for the return -- locking in to two green turns of movement and a loss of an action before you can repeat the trick, and while you're running around tokenless with multiple stress your green dice will stab your TIEs in the back.

PTL on an FO nets the same thing with only a turn of movement sacrifice. Yeah, you don't get Youngster sharing shenanigans, but I don't think your sacrifice is worth it.

For the number of times you will pull it off per ship, I think a Crack Swarm is still more effective.

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

I play strictly Imperial and have almost NEVER had a TIE Fighter/ln die in one shot. Often, they are taken to one hull, then that one becomes my primary blocker on the next turn so the ship that just hit it can't hit it again. Sounds like you need better practice in flying TIE swarms.

Meh. TIE fighter is still just a rat in a cage.

While I appreciate the Smashing Pumpkins reference, I am rather saddened by the diminutive dismissal.

​Are you running an obvious counter to the list?

I just think it's too great a sacrifice for the return -- locking in to two green turns of movement and a loss of an action before you can repeat the trick, and while you're running around tokenless with multiple stress your green dice will stab your TIEs in the back.

An admitted flaw with the 8-ship variant, I'll grant you. Still, it's an 8-SHIP variant we're talking about there, and there's not a lot that can survive 15 expected damage in a single round.

The 7-ship swarm uses Epsilon Leader, who clears out the stress very effectively, rendering your argument moot, and Wampa, who takes care of the one class of ship that can survive the onslaught of the regular swarmery.

Using TIE/FOs only locks you into a 6-ship swarm, and using PTL on an FO, as you suggested, locks you in at only 5.

I think it safe to say that my 7-ship swarm will murder your 5-ship swarm handily, particularly if the match winds up going to time. I outdamage you heartily.

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

I play strictly Imperial and have almost NEVER had a TIE Fighter/ln die in one shot. Often, they are taken to one hull, then that one becomes my primary blocker on the next turn so the ship that just hit it can't hit it again. Sounds like you need better practice in flying TIE swarms.

TIE Fighters have 3 agility dice, and are likely to be focused (which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round).

​That's an expected damage mitigation of appx 2 for the first attack, and slightly better when spread over multiple.

You regularly face attacks of 5 expected damage? I think you need better dice, my friend.

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

I play strictly Imperial and have almost NEVER had a TIE Fighter/ln die in one shot. Often, they are taken to one hull, then that one becomes my primary blocker on the next turn so the ship that just hit it can't hit it again. Sounds like you need better practice in flying TIE swarms.

TIE Fighters have 3 agility dice, and are likely to be focused (which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round).

​That's an expected damage mitigation of appx 2 for the first attack, and slightly better when spread over multiple.

You regularly face attacks of 5 expected damage? I think you need better dice, my friend.

Odds viewed another way: The odds of rolling 0 evades or foci on 3 dice are only appx 5%. 19 times out of 20 you can dodge at least 1 damage when holding a focus token, so 19 times out of 20 you'll survive 3 incoming damage.

TIE Fighters have 3 agility dice, and are likely to be focused (which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round).

​That's an expected damage mitigation of appx 2 for the first attack, and slightly better when spread over multiple.

Except you won't be focused in this case, since you'll be stressed after the first shot. And that beautiful focus + reroll is being applied to a whopping two red dice.

I think a Raging Crackswarm could be fun too, but you do get limited to 6 ships. But then crackshot

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

Ahh, but the possibility of a spike increases over multiple attacks, as you do not spend the focus token when you gain no benefit from doing so.

Math explanation here, by VorpalSword.

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

Ahh, but the possibility of a spike increases over multiple attacks, as you do not spend the focus token when you gain no benefit from doing so.

Math explanation here, by VorpalSword.

If you're going to link to math, at least link the correct version, a later update from VorpalSword: link

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

Ahh, but the possibility of a spike increases over multiple attacks, as you do not spend the focus token when you gain no benefit from doing so.

Math explanation here, by VorpalSword.

The math there is interesting but it's not being presented in an accurate way. The argument is cleverly constructed to look solid but is sneakily twisting things in the favor of focus being better, thus being a self fulfilling conclusion. The actual math should discount rolls of both 1 eye and 0 eyes as the same since the question is NOT 'when is focus the same as evade' but rather 'when is focus better than evade'. To discern that you ignore the obvious benefit focus has on offense since that's immaterial the the defensively facing question. In 1 attack there is a 14.5% chance of rolling 2+ eyes and 85.5% chance of rolling 1- eyes. In 2 attacks the breakdown is 73.1% of 1- on both, 12.4% chance of 2+ on one and 2.1% chance of 2+ on both. To exceed a 50% chance of rolling only 0-1 eyeballs you actually need to be attacked three times where the % becomes 39.1% all 1- and 61.9% some combination involving 2+.

While 1 attack is a seemingly minor difference in scope it's a pretty big deal since many lists cap at 3 or 4 ships. And against 2 ship lists it would be implied that defensively focus will never be better than evade for 3 agility.

Well it is nice to get more action EPT that Youngster could use. You could save it for when Ties get inside range 1 to get the most out of the rerolls.

Oh also on topic I'm excited by the idea of 8ball rage swarm especially with the consideration that during off duty cycles youngster can be hiding away from his friends due to range 1-3 leash.

I think a Raging Crackswarm could be fun too, but you do get limited to 6 ships. But then crackshot

Bath salts?

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

Ahh, but the possibility of a spike increases over multiple attacks, as you do not spend the focus token when you gain no benefit from doing so.

Math explanation here, by VorpalSword.

Vorpal's analysis is wrong. The actual damage received, and likewise the relative damage mitigation difference when taking focus vs evade on defense, will depend on the kind of incoming attacks that you are defending against. It is also further complicated by the ship's limited hit points. If the defender has infinite health, then eventually focus will indeed be better than evade if enough attacks come your way. However, a TIE Fighter only has 3 hull. For example, if the incoming attack is 3 dice with focus, you need to be attacked three times for focus to break even with evade.

(which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round)

An off topic aside I think this statement is blatantly false unless the math is assuming the statistical benefit of the focus token applies to all attacks which would be hilariously faulty.

3 raw dice evade 1.125, 3 focus dice evade 1.875 and 3 evaded dice evade 2.125. The number of attacks received doesn't matter since holding a focus token doesn't make your averages better it just provides the possibility of a spike (one which you may not live to see or see at all).

Ahh, but the possibility of a spike increases over multiple attacks, as you do not spend the focus token when you gain no benefit from doing so.

Math explanation here, by VorpalSword.

The math there is interesting but it's not being presented in an accurate way. The argument is cleverly constructed to look solid but is sneakily twisting things in the favor of focus being better, thus being a self fulfilling conclusion. The actual math should discount rolls of both 1 eye and 0 eyes as the same since the question is NOT 'when is focus the same as evade' but rather 'when is focus better than evade'.

Fine, I'll break it down for you.

In a single attack, there is a 27/64 chance that the focus token will not be used, a 27/64 that it can evade 1 damage, a 9/64 chance that it will evade 2 damage, and a 1/64 chance that it can evade 3.

However, spread over the two attacks, the second attack gets to use the odds of the first if the token was unused.

Therefore:

27/64 of evading 1 on attack 1

09/64 of evading 2 on attack 1

01/64 of evading 3 on attack 1

(27/64)x(27/64) of evading 1 on attack 2

(27/64)x(09/64) of evading 2 on attack 2

(27/64)x(01/64) of evading 3 on attack 2

(27/64)x(27/64) of failing to spend the focus token on either attack.

​Altogether, that's appx a 1.066 expected evades from that Focus token, when spread over 2 attacks.

The more attacks you're subjected to, the lower the expected odds of being unable to use your focus token go.

The odds of being unable to spend the focus token shrinks exponentially.

​1 attack = (27/64)¹

2 attack = (27/64)²

3 attack = (27/64)³

et c.

As those odds of failure shrink, the worth of the Focus Token approaches its limit, which is a worth of appx 1.297 Evade tokens (with 3 agility).

Meh. TIE fighter is still just a rat in a cage.

While I appreciate the Smashing Pumpkins reference, I am rather saddened by the diminutive dismissal.

​Are you running an obvious counter to the list?

The one liner diminutive dismissals in theory crafting posts are totally a pain in the rear.

Fine, I'll break it down for you.

Unless I'm hallucinating I broke it down for me in the remainder of my post and discussed how it actually takes 3 attacks for focus to beat evade rather than tie or worse. Focus is always more flexible but in terms of raw evade results provided a 3 agility ship must be attacked 3 times for focus to break 50% chance of being better than evade rather than just being as good or worse. I can go into that math too but it's not complex and you are fine at math. Just shift your percentages such that 1 and 0 are counted the same and 2 and 3 are counted the same.

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

I play strictly Imperial and have almost NEVER had a TIE Fighter/ln die in one shot. Often, they are taken to one hull, then that one becomes my primary blocker on the next turn so the ship that just hit it can't hit it again. Sounds like you need better practice in flying TIE swarms.

I have been playing for 3+ years, with probably 4-5 tournament wins to my credit, but thanks for the condescension in assuming that I don't know how swarms or blockers work. For the record, I don't play swarms and would rather lose an eye than play a swarm list as they are on par with a PWT for sheer boredom, so that's 100% missing the point. It's not about them colliding or not having tokens, they just die. I can have a focus and still roll all blanks like a champ. I can have an Evade and sure enough I will take a hit/Direct Hit. Note, this doesn't apply to Interceptors, Bombers, Defenders, Advanced, etc., just Fighters and F/Os, and yes, my probably curve is unusual. But since it is my experience, they are crap and this frustration is from over 3 years of consistently terrible performance. They may be an "efficient" ship based on math, but for me, they are garbage.

Sounds interesting, but I have sworn off the TIE Fighter as trash, at least for me. All the **** things ever do is blow up in one shot. Literally every time. I haven't had one with a damage card in months, just one and done over and over. F/Os merely last 2 shots. I can't stand the **** things; they ruin my gaming high, lol.

That being said, for someone who doesn't experience this, your second option seems best.

I play strictly Imperial and have almost NEVER had a TIE Fighter/ln die in one shot. Often, they are taken to one hull, then that one becomes my primary blocker on the next turn so the ship that just hit it can't hit it again. Sounds like you need better practice in flying TIE swarms.

TIE Fighters have 3 agility dice, and are likely to be focused (which on 3 agi translates to slightly more than an evade token if you're defending against 2 or more attacks in a round).

​That's an expected damage mitigation of appx 2 for the first attack, and slightly better when spread over multiple.

You regularly face attacks of 5 expected damage? I think you need better dice, my friend.

Could be the dice, absolutely. Except that they completely disappear ONLY for TIE Fighters. As noted above, other TIE variants? No problem. A-Wings, Aggressors, StarVipers, other 3-Agi ships... no problem. TIE Fighters just die, token or not. I have given up trying to understand it, I just don't take the stupid things anymore.