Yeah I don't think people get what I'm trying to say as they keep replying with how great Vaders ability is in X Y Z situations...yeah I get that. What I'm saying is that for the POINT COST and USE COST Vader is over-priced. And in a game where budgeting points is one of the first things you need to do before you even get to a table this is a cardinal sin. I feel if vader was 6-10 points cheaper I would have nothing to say.

When you choose Vader he costs you

-Points

-Tokens to use

-The opportunity to take a cheaper admiral + what the points delta would buy you

I actually believe that Vader was designed and assigned points to stay balanced for FUTURE states of the game. I think there might be ships coming that Vader will super-charge and making him cheaper or more powerful would make those ships OP.

How is Screed a wasted investment if you roll three black dice and they come up blank, hit , hit& criti ? You get to change the black to another hit&crit ...giving you two extra damage. Upping the damage with screed it just as important as fishing for crits.

While am on the subject of screed. Does the opponent get to use the evade token after I change my blank red dice to a critical? I imagine so according to the order (99% sure ) as I understand it because modify dice comes before using defense tokens. Had someone argue that the other day.

In the example you gave, Screed would be an additional 1 damage (as you need to drop a dice to flip to a crit side, which means unless you drop the hit+crit, which would be foolish, you're going to wind up with 2 hit+crits, which is a 1 point damage benefit over the hit+blank+ hit and crit), which certainly helps. Black dice are Screed's specialty and he will always shine brightest with them, especially with small to moderately-sized pools of them (or larger pools augmented with Ordnance Experts).

The attack order goes like this, basically:

1) Attacker gathers up the base battery dice and rolls them

2) Attacker can now use all add/modify/reroll/spend dice effects until they run out or he chooses not to use any more (HERE IS WHERE SCREED HAPPENS)

3) Defender now uses his defense tokens. Evade causes an immediate reroll or removal (depending on range/Mon Mothma), the others will have their effects applied in step 5.

4) If there is still a critical icon in the pool, the attacker now chooses which critical effect he will be using and resolves it (please keep in mind that the base critical effect/the XX-9 Turbolaser critical effect would still resolve now but they tell you that should damage get to the hull in step 5, face up damage cards happen*).

5) Damage is now applied to the ship by the defender, modified by used defense tokens

*This is one of the jankier elements of the Assault Proton Torpedoes, as they resolve after defense tokens are spent but before Brace/Redirect are actually used to deal with the damage, so you can live the dream of flipping over the crit that drops the highest shield value when your opponent wasn't expecting it but after they've already dedicated their defense tokens.

Obviously you are right with stating that Vader is the only upgrade affecting long range shots - I just think that this is a niche which is hardly worth 36 points. In my opinion, imperials are not really blessed with long range power and tend to getting outgunned. It is medium or even close range where we shine. Following this, I tend to be at long range only for a turn max, trying to cross the distance, and even if taking a CF command into account those long range volley are not that impressing - the return fire trumps it, 7/10 times.

Regarding fleet building, I tend to go with Motti a lot since he is the cheapest of the lot. His ability is boring as hell, but since I have to pay for one guy sitting in the command throne all bossy and stuff, why not go with the cheap guy and spend those 12 points difference elsewhere? Same goes for screed but for black dice heavy fleets.

Consider this : Vader's long range niche is just the icing on the cake

You also get the rerolls at medium and close range, which is like you said the distance you should be aiming for. And this is where Vader brings out his hidden card : the ability to have the equivalent of multiple upgrade cards within a single slot

1) In the ion cannon slot, if you take Leading Shots for the rerolls, you can't put Ion Cannon cards that trigger critical effects

2) In the Weapons Team slot, if you take Ordnance Experts, you can't take any other upgrade which are still very solid choices

With Vader, you can in effect have both Leading Shots + a crit effect upgrade, and you can have Ordnance Experts + GT/FC/RS. You don't have that opportunity cost of having to have one or the other, and you actually have a good chance of triggering crit effects because you'll take Vader with large dice pools and the rerolling.

Let's take a look at the probability for an ISD2's front arc to naturally roll a blue critical :

1) Number of blue dice : 4 / Chance of not rolling a crit per dice : 0.75

2) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.75^4 = 0.31 --> Organically, an ISD2's front arc has 69% chance of rolling a single critical hit without any modification. Which is a decent probability, but nothing surefire.

Now, let's look at Vader's ability :

3) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.31

4) Chance of 4 blue dice not rolling a single critical result after rolling all 4 dice because of not getting a single critical result : 0.31*0.31 = 0.10

With Vader on an ISD 2's front arc, you have 90% chance of rolling at least one critical result. Screed gives 100% for every ship, but where Screed's ability is more interesting than Vader's is when you're rolling low dice pools. Let's take the same analysis on an ISD 2's side arc :

1) Number of blue dice : 2 / Chance of not rolling a critical result per die : 0.75

2) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625

3) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result afer rerolling 2 blue dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625² = 31%

Screed is more interesting than Vader when rolling low amounts of dice.

The thing with Vader, and this is why he hard to math compared to Screed or Motti, is the fact that like Garm Bel Iblis he gives options and options are hard to value until you are in a situation on the tabletop where options are needed. Do we look for crits ? Do we look for accuracies ? Do I keep the result as it is now ? Options, options, options are what make him good.

Oviously, he doesn't really belong in all fleets. He likes VSDs and ISDs and that's about it because of large dice pools and he doesn't benefit (as we saw in our ISD2 front vs side arc math time) small dice pools as much. He also likes ships that can stick in the brawl for a decent amount of time and have sufficient range to project damage and trigger Vader's ability. But he requires a specific doctrine for building fleets.

For example, in my last game, I almost "one shotted" a CR90 at long range (1hp remaining) after activating 3 TIE Fighters + TIE Bomber shooting at the rear arc followed by 4 red dice including one Acc that allowed me to block the redirect. If only my fighter's dice throws hasn't been so sucky, that CR90 would have been no more (1 damage overall, from a TIE !) Vader allowed me to do that by ensuring at least 2 double hits, one crit and one acc. Which is pretty impressive in my book at the ISD's least effective range by a large margin and mitigates one of the key weaknesses of medium/large Imperial ships : being outmaneuvered by more nimble ships (against a swarm, you'll only be able to get front arc shots if the opponent fails at maneuvers or suicides one of his ships).

_____

Late disclaimer : I'm not argumenting against your opinion, because I respect the fact that you said that you don't value Vader at 36 points and you're more than welcome to think that, rather than saying "Vader sucks".

I don't care enough about Vader to want him to be used by more people (I actually like the fact that we don't really see much of him, I can surprise my opponents who underestimate him because of his cost ! ).

Options. People are not considering how powerful an option really is in this game.

What a contribution .. people are considering options as powerful, however the outcome of the consideration might differ with regard to the question how much people are willing to invest.

MoffZen, thanks for the write-up. I pressed like already, but since one-liners are a thing I express my like for your well-made explanation one more time.

People treat Armada like X-Wing or even 40k where they consider the list as one of the more important aspects. They don't plan options, they plan their Tactics.

S

When I build a list, I build for versatility first then a plan second. This is a reason why people don't look at objectives in the same way other players do. For example Superior Positions and Precision Strike are amazing objectives even without squadrons

Yeah I don't think people get what I'm trying to say as they keep replying with how great Vaders ability is in X Y Z situations...yeah I get that. What I'm saying is that for the POINT COST and USE COST Vader is over-priced. And in a game where budgeting points is one of the first things you need to do before you even get to a table this is a cardinal sin. I feel if vader was 6-10 points cheaper I would have nothing to say.

When you choose Vader he costs you

-Points

-Tokens to use

-The opportunity to take a cheaper admiral + what the points delta would buy you

I actually believe that Vader was designed and assigned points to stay balanced for FUTURE states of the game. I think there might be ships coming that Vader will super-charge and making him cheaper or more powerful would make those ships OP.

-Only one use per activation.

-You have to lose a die

Let's look at Leading Shots:

-Have to be in Blue range

-Have to lose a die

Let's look at Ordnance Experts:

-Black dice ONLY

Vader is actually has a cheap cost. If you position yourself (which in a game about maneuvering and positioning this is vital) you can limit the amount of attacks you take. I have a good video of this in a rebel vs rebel game from last night)

Points are cheap honestly. People spend points on all kinda of things that they just feel that they 'must have' but can do without.

Ah I have been missing the spend a dice and reading it as flip a dice. That is where I got it wrong. Thanks.

While we are on this topic of order. When does the assult concussion missles happen. Seem like since step 4 come before step 5 the critical effect of two shields, or two hull damage if no shields are present, would come off the adjacent hull zones after defender uses defense tokens, which can't reduce ACM damage unless the crit is somehow removed, but before the normal damage is assigned. So the defended should take the two shields off (or in case there are no shields take damage cards) first before taking other shields off the defending Hull zone? Is that the correct order for ACM?

One final question for any takers:

I got a question someone was telling me yesterday that I could not up use my extra click from Nav team, or even a Nav command for that matter on movement sections marked -- only on sections of the tool marked l ? Anyone heard of this rubbish?

How is Screed a wasted investment if you roll three black dice and they come up blank, hit , hit& criti ? You get to change the black to another hit&crit ...giving you two extra damage. Upping the damage with screed it just as important as fishing for crits.

While am on the subject of screed. Does the opponent get to use the evade token after I change my blank red dice to a critical? I imagine so according to the order (99% sure ) as I understand it because modify dice comes before using defense tokens. Had someone argue that the other day.

In the example you gave, Screed would be an additional 1 damage (as you need to drop a dice to flip to a crit side, which means unless you drop the hit+crit, which would be foolish, you're going to wind up with 2 hit+crits, which is a 1 point damage benefit over the hit+blank+ hit and crit), which certainly helps. Black dice are Screed's specialty and he will always shine brightest with them, especially with small to moderately-sized pools of them (or larger pools augmented with Ordnance Experts).

The attack order goes like this, basically:

1) Attacker gathers up the base battery dice and rolls them

2) Attacker can now use all add/modify/reroll/spend dice effects until they run out or he chooses not to use any more (HERE IS WHERE SCREED HAPPENS)

3) Defender now uses his defense tokens. Evade causes an immediate reroll or removal (depending on range/Mon Mothma), the others will have their effects applied in step 5.

4) If there is still a critical icon in the pool, the attacker now chooses which critical effect he will be using and resolves it (please keep in mind that the base critical effect/the XX-9 Turbolaser critical effect would still resolve now but they tell you that should damage get to the hull in step 5, face up damage cards happen*).

5) Damage is now applied to the ship by the defender, modified by used defense tokens

*This is one of the jankier elements of the Assault Proton Torpedoes, as they resolve after defense tokens are spent but before Brace/Redirect are actually used to deal with the damage, so you can live the dream of flipping over the crit that drops the highest shield value when your opponent wasn't expecting it but after they've already dedicated their defense tokens.

Yeah I don't think people get what I'm trying to say as they keep replying with how great Vaders ability is in X Y Z situations...yeah I get that. What I'm saying is that for the POINT COST and USE COST Vader is over-priced. And in a game where budgeting points is one of the first things you need to do before you even get to a table this is a cardinal sin. I feel if vader was 6-10 points cheaper I would have nothing to say.

When you choose Vader he costs you

-Points

-Tokens to use

-The opportunity to take a cheaper admiral + what the points delta would buy you

I actually believe that Vader was designed and assigned points to stay balanced for FUTURE states of the game. I think there might be ships coming that Vader will super-charge and making him cheaper or more powerful would make those ships OP.

Once again, you're saying overpriced without referring a standard of measurement with which to assess Vader again. The key idea one needs to understand when judging ships and upgrade cards is : There is no standard metric with which to measure the pertinence of a card/ship. Each player has its own proprietary metrics based on his own interpretation of what is important for him in the game.

Show me something that can do what Vader does : Rerolling all dice at all ranges, while not blocking any upgrade slots on the ships. There is nothing that lets you do that, as of yet. When I take Vader, that's what I'm looking for. I can field ISD 2s with HK 10 and Enhanced Armaments, making extremely mean side arcs and still get the rerolls and annoying crits.

If I want tanky ships, I take Motti. If I want small/medium ships to punch above their weight, I pay for Screed and crit upgrades. If I want security in my maneuvers, I pay for Ozeel. If I want extra tokens for ships, I pay for Tarkin. If I want rerolls on all dice with the ability to field cards that increase the damage and the dice pool, I pay for Vader. It's as simple as that.

Let's look at the true opportunity cost of a cheaper Admiral like Motti :

1) 24 points

2) No damage added to your ships, so you have to spend on upgrade cards

3) No flexibility added for Commands

4) No speed manipulation

5) No critical hits manipulation through rerolls or commander ability

6) No rerolls at long range

( 7) No saying : "You don't know the power... of The Dark Side !" when you cripple a ship, nor "I find your lack of faith disturbing" when killing a Motti ISD)

My father used to say "People think justly, but incompletely" and this is because they are limiting their analysis within a framework of what they're trying to achieve, rather than looking at things for what they really are. Which is why, for example, I feel that Gunnery Team/XI7/Intel Officer ISD 2s are over rated. Sure, in the situation where you manage to have 2 ships at your optimal range then this is absolutely great ! But I take into accounts what opponents are going to try and do : counter my lists and exploit my weaknesses rather than my strengths.

Example : when I faced 2 ISD 2s with that exact loadout (and Motti as an Admiral), I threw 2 Neb Bs (yes, I play Neb Bs, I play Garm Bel Iblis, I play Raiders and I play Vader, I guess I have a problem with common sense and netlists ) in one of the ISD 2's front arc to taunt him and one was even on the side. The only thing he gained from that shot was doing a few damage to my Neb Bs and making one lose a Brace token through Intel Officer. You can imagine how distraught I was when that happened. He never got another shot from its front arc for the rest of the game, and did not even destroy the Nebs with his other ISD.

In my framework, min/maxing lists have very limited returns, because the more points you invest into something efficient, the more points are wasted when your opponent prevents you from taking advantage of it and that has got to do with the rules and mechanics of Armada (alternating deployment and activation that allows players to counter and counter counter each ship and move). I don't underestimate my opponents and I always expect them to prevent me from being able to use my list at full efficiency.

So, yeah. Vader being a good generalist works for me

While we are on this topic of order. When does the assult concussion missles happen.

At the start of Step 5. Before you Total the Damage. Because it happens before you total and suffer the Damage, it is not affected by Brace or Redirect defense tokens.

So you have it correct.

Roll the Dice, do all your Modifying Mumbo Jumbo. Get your Crit Icon, but don't decide what to do with it yet.

Defender spends their defense tokens. They ahve to decide what to spend here, and they resolve any choice of "Evade" immediately.

Hope you have a Crit at the end of the Evades. They would also have to decide to spend a Contain here or not as well, if they were expecting to take a face up card because you had no other effects, or to force you into choosing a Critical Trigger effect that might actually lessen the damage... (for example, ACMs where your defending zone has no shields, but the adjacents are loaded)

Then, activate your Crit effect. ACMs immediately do damage to the adjacent hull zones. APTs immediately do their face-up card.

There is no respite here.

Only NOW do you tally up the amount of Damage you have on your dice. Brace takes effect here and halves that number.

NOW you suffer damage one point at a time. Here is where you resolve the Redirect Defense Token, and assign them point by point to either the defending hull zone, or an allowed redirect zone.

So, in short, you had it right.

(Edited for formatting)

One final question for any takers:

I got a question someone was telling me yesterday that I could not up use my extra click from Nav team, or even a Nav command for that matter on movement sections marked -- only on sections of the tool marked l ? Anyone heard of this rubbish?

That person was entirely wrong. I don't have a page number for reference, but you can add clicks of yaw anywhere you want provided you don't go above 2 clicks per segment.

Dras already answered the other question before me .

Dras already answered the other question before me .

I answered the question you answered here even before this one, as it was also asked in the Ozzel+Nav Team Thread, and I got it there

While we are on this topic of order. When does the assult concussion missles happen.

At the start of Step 5. Before you Total the Damage. Because it happens before you total and suffer the Damage, it is not affected by Brace or Redirect defense tokens.

So you have it correct.

Roll the Dice, do all your Modifying Mumbo Jumbo. Get your Crit Icon, but don't decide what to do with it yet.

Defender spends their defense tokens. They ahve to decide what to spend here, and they resolve any choice of "Evade" immediately.

Hope you have a Crit at the end of the Evades. They would also have to decide to spend a Contain here or not as well, if they were expecting to take a face up card because you had no other effects, or to force you into choosing a Critical Trigger effect that might actually lessen the damage... (for example, ACMs where your defending zone has no shields, but the adjacents are loaded)

Then, activate your Crit effect. ACMs immediately do damage to the adjacent hull zones. APTs immediately do their face-up card.

There is no respite here.

Only NOW do you tally up the amount of Damage you have on your dice. Brace takes effect here and halves that number.

NOW you suffer damage one point at a time. Here is where you resolve the Redirect Defense Token, and assign them point by point to either the defending hull zone, or an allowed redirect zone.

So, in short, you had it right.

(Edited for formatting)

https://youtu.be/ZkEQATZXbxE

I saw it last night, but thought you might have been explaining the ACM a little unclear with regard to the exact timing. If Recall you lumped in the ACM damage with the damage at the end instead of the effect taking place immediately after defense tokens where spent. Thanks for the video. I might be misremembering as my wife was working on my sore hamstrings and calf muscles while I was watching the video on the massage table.

While we are on this topic of order. When does the assult concussion missles happen.

At the start of Step 5. Before you Total the Damage. Because it happens before you total and suffer the Damage, it is not affected by Brace or Redirect defense tokens.

So you have it correct.

Roll the Dice, do all your Modifying Mumbo Jumbo. Get your Crit Icon, but don't decide what to do with it yet.

Defender spends their defense tokens. They ahve to decide what to spend here, and they resolve any choice of "Evade" immediately.

Hope you have a Crit at the end of the Evades. They would also have to decide to spend a Contain here or not as well, if they were expecting to take a face up card because you had no other effects, or to force you into choosing a Critical Trigger effect that might actually lessen the damage... (for example, ACMs where your defending zone has no shields, but the adjacents are loaded)

Then, activate your Crit effect. ACMs immediately do damage to the adjacent hull zones. APTs immediately do their face-up card.

There is no respite here.

Only NOW do you tally up the amount of Damage you have on your dice. Brace takes effect here and halves that number.

NOW you suffer damage one point at a time. Here is where you resolve the Redirect Defense Token, and assign them point by point to either the defending hull zone, or an allowed redirect zone.

So, in short, you had it right.

(Edited for formatting)

I have a Critical Effects video. . .https://youtu.be/ZkEQATZXbxE

Dras already answered the other question before me .

I answered the question you answered here even before this one, as it was also asked in the Ozzel+Nav Team Thread, and I got it there

Hey no need to rub it in, rules ninja

Dras already answered the other question before me .

I answered the question you answered here even before this one, as it was also asked in the Ozzel+Nav Team Thread, and I got it there

Hey no need to rub it in, rules ninja

No Rubbing in, in fact, quite thankful for it, as I'm not cross-quoting myself, which is entirely too meta for me most days

One thing I really liked about the Lyr video is pointing out why it is a good idea to order the defense tokens from the top to bottom as evade, brace, redirect.

Seems like according to drasnighta' post the order with a contain should be evade on top, then contain, then brace, then redirect for clarity

Thanks snap, drag, and Lyr!

I actually believe that Vader was designed and assigned points to stay balanced for FUTURE states of the game. I think there might be ships coming that Vader will super-charge and making him cheaper or more powerful would make those ships OP.

Super star destroyer for the win!!

Where are all these long range dice Vader is so crucial and unique for modifying?

If all you are getting on your ISD 2 is red dice you're playing the (rightfully) vaunted positioning game wrong! So do i take Vader who is only better than the alternatives at long range or do I use my current fave Ozzie, get my 16 points worth of flexibility and use Ozzie expertly to make sure my ISDs get plenty of medium range front arcs? With those 16 points I can put Leading shots on 2 ISDs and have points left over, leave my **** defense tokens alone (which in these low activation big-dice-throwing lists Vader is "for" you will certainly get peppered by many ships and you likely won't get "free" use of def tokens for Vader unless your opponent is equally low activation or incompetent).

If Vader works for you, great, have fun. I'm trying him out in various lists to figure out if he really is worth it rather than just theorizing that he is/isn't. So far it's a fail. I mean, usually I can tell if something is bad because I suck at it and need to "get" it (Raider) or if it just does not compute. It took me a while to figure out Ozzel but i could TELL there was a angle there. With Vader I can't see it.

Maybe for me, re-rolling is not something I personally put a lot of reliance on, I prefer to put overwhelming force on a point and evaporate, overwhelming force + X is pointless. Last nights game I had a double arc (front /side) with a raider 1 with APT at close range to the opponents MC80, I rolled my side arc and got blue crit, black blank, vader evade token: Blue crit, black blank (started wishing for screed at this point). Rolled my front arc, 1 blue hit, an accuracy and 2 black hits. Vader the evade, re-rolled exact same thing...

Yes this particular list is better with Screed, but i explained my reasoning above. I just can't come up with a list where Vader is substantially better than another commander, tbh. I like Ozzel for balanced lists, Tarkin for flexibility, Motti for when you are afraid that you forgot how to position and fly or are new, Screed to activate crits...Vader?

I think I'm going to try 2 more lists. 1: 2 ISDs with decent squadron screen (not sure if fireball or mixed threat or pure anti-squad), and a virtually naked 3 ISD list where the rerolls could make a serious difference in burning down enemy ships, but if the later is the one he works in, I wan't no part in it as its very min/max

As for the passive-aggressive condescension about me not using Vader right because I don't know how to position or whatever? Please, I'm on an 8 game winning streak because I don't know how to control the board?? Ha! I will remind that I WON the game I played with Vader. I made it WORK. I just felt dirty doing it cause it sucked.

As for the passive-aggressive condescension about me not using Vader right because I don't know how to position or whatever? Please, I'm on an 8 game winning streak because I don't know how to control the board?? Ha! I will remind that I WON the game I played with Vader. I made it WORK. I just felt dirty doing it cause it sucked.

I don't usually have problems catching my opponents faster ships. It takes a lot of practice and patience, but the most important thing is speed control.

May I suggest that equally important to speed control is good deployment when you're trying to catch opposing fast ships?

Edit: Not trying to say Hastatior isn't controlling the board, just that I don't think good speed control alone is going to catch many fast ships without good deployment.

I've stated my thoughts on this in more detail elsewhere, but just to recap, I feel like Vader's a poor choice if you're using him as an "insurance policy" (there are cheaper--and often better--options for most imperial ships, and for large ships like ISDs, there are seldom going to be catastrophically bad rolls if you're bringing your full dice complement to bear). The real value comes from double- and even triple- selective rerolls, by pairing him with other reroll options like Ordnance Experts and Leading Shots (and maybe even a CF token), so I'd be curious if the OP took Vader in lieu of Ordnance Experts or paired Vader with Ordnance Experts.

Ironically, I played a similar list last night-- two GSD Is with Ordnance Experts and Expanded Launchers, three Raider Is with Ordnance Experts (one with Expanded Launchers, two with APTs), with Vader and a ton of Intel Officers. The Expanded Launcher ships in particular are beastly: got 10 damage from the front arc of a wounded Raider I, and over 30 damage out of four consecutive Demolisher volleys (7/10/8/8), with a couple accuracies and Intel Officer exhausts thrown in. The raiders are still a bit squishy for my taste, but the Glads are nasty, especially if you have double-arc shots lined up.

That said, I really committed at the outset of the list building to a list that was pure offense, with a focus on modifying (Vader + Ordnance Experts) lots of dice (Expanded Launchers) and stripping defense tokens (Intel Officers), and invested a lot of points into that (36 for Vader, 26 for Expanded Launchers, 20 for Ordnance Experts, 28 in Intel Officers). Definitely not the sort of thing for every list. And I did have a couple whiff rolls, even with OEs and Vader (one was a true whiff, rolled blanks and rerolled blanks twice; the other I got blanks that I turned into hits, but got greedy going for double-hits on a reroll and reverted back to blanks--go big or go home, right? ). So nothing's guaranteed.

I've stated my thoughts on this in more detail elsewhere, but just to recap, I feel like Vader's a poor choice if you're using him as an "insurance policy" (there are cheaper--and often better--options for most imperial ships, and for large ships like ISDs, there are seldom going to be catastrophically bad rolls if you're bringing your full dice complement to bear). The real value comes from double- and even triple- selective rerolls, by pairing him with other reroll options like Ordnance Experts and Leading Shots (and maybe even a CF token), so I'd be curious if the OP took Vader in lieu of Ordnance Experts or paired Vader with Ordnance Experts.

Ironically, I played a similar list last night-- two GSD Is with Ordnance Experts and Expanded Launchers, three Raider Is with Ordnance Experts (one with Expanded Launchers, two with APTs), with Vader and a ton of Intel Officers. The Expanded Launcher ships in particular are beastly: got 10 damage from the front arc of a wounded Raider I, and over 30 damage out of four consecutive Demolisher volleys (7/10/8/8), with a couple accuracies and Intel Officer exhausts thrown in. The raiders are still a bit squishy for my taste, but the Glads are nasty, especially if you have double-arc shots lined up.

That said, I really committed at the outset of the list building to a list that was pure offense, with a focus on modifying (Vader + Ordnance Experts) lots of dice (Expanded Launchers) and stripping defense tokens (Intel Officers), and invested a lot of points into that (36 for Vader, 26 for Expanded Launchers, 20 for Ordnance Experts, 28 in Intel Officers). Definitely not the sort of thing for every list. And I did have a couple whiff rolls, even with OEs and Vader (one was a true whiff, rolled blanks and rerolled blanks twice; the other I got blanks that I turned into hits, but got greedy going for double-hits on a reroll and reverted back to blanks--go big or go home, right? ). So nothing's guaranteed.

Ah! Some interesting ideas!

Hmm so stacking re-roll options to always get a very high chance at very optimal results from large pools of dice...this is something that could have merit.

Naturally you will have wildly varying returns but should normalize on the higher end of the average damage curve.

You will get diminishing returns for each subsequent re-roll point investment but if you can focus fire enough each ISD front arc is virtually guaranteed to be painful AF.

I was thinking of trying Needa on an ISD 2 with TRC, add Vader and leading shots and you have a virtually guaranteed crippling medium range front arc and a painful long range one. Maybe add the devastator title so the minute you lose a token even your front arc long range will get a leading shots reroll.

OK I have to try this.

Ryth has got some good points especially on smaller ships !

It'd be great if you posted the math about the average damages without Vader, with Vader, with the reroll upgrades, with both.

I foresee that they might be redundant, but still worth exploring to get the proper data.

Example : on the Red dice from an ISD 2´s front arc (rerolling all non damage facings) :

1) No reroll : 4 * 0,625 * 1,2 = 3

2) Vader : 4 * ( 5/8 + 3/8 * 5/8 ) * 1,2 = 4,125 (+37.5% )

3) Additional reroll from Leading Shots : 4 * (5/8 + 3/8 * 5/8 + 3/8 * 3/8 * 5/8) * 1,2 = 4.55 (+51%) but losing one Blue dice

What if like Rhytbryt said, we were rerolling only the non double damage (keeping on Red dice for the moment) :

1) No reroll = 3 dalage

2) Vader reroll : 4 * (1/8 * 2 + 7/8 * 1/8 * 2 + 7/8 * 7/8 * 0,5714) = 3,62 damage

3) Additional reroll from Leading Shots : 4 * (1/8*2+7/8*1/8*2+7/8*7/8*1/8*2+7/8*7/8*7/8*0,5714) = 4,1718

So, being too greedy is a bit risky I May have messed up the calculations in my iPhone's calculator so please correct if I'm wrong.

It might work better with Black dice due to a 2/8 chance of rolling the double hits, but I'm concerned being too greedy with the rerolls actually increases the chances of rolling blanks :/

I've stated my thoughts on this in more detail elsewhere,

fun fact, This^ eventually lead to my current build in the world cup. ( i ended up switching Vader for Screed)

But at least a small part of my success is owed to Ryth

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to start a sort of crowd-sourced data based analysis of the different commanders. This "better commander" thing comes up a lot but there are ways to quantifiably measure at least some of the impact and compare.

I mean, you can easily count up how much extra damage you cause thanks to "using" non passive abilities like Vader or screed, you can count how many hull points beyond basic Motti actually afforded you, you can count how many speed changes were thanks to Ozzel, you can count how many tarkin bucks you used (and how many were wasted). Sure there would be data outliers but with enough data it would start forming a picture of effectiveness v.s. cost. I mean, Vader is 8% of your list, Tarkin slightly more, Ozzel is 5%. Naturally you wouldn't be able to calculate opportunity cost of taking a Tarkin over an Ozzel (1 firespray difference) or list efficiency for a given commander, but again, the more data the more accurate, especially if collected with a basic list outline (numbers of what ships and how many upgrade points total and squad points total).

pipe dreams.

If you want I can keep track of my attacks and see what the averages works out to be.