I think individual posts per section will assist people better

Great information from Rhytbryt and Snipafist, I looked into your posts with great interest ! I think we may be on to something for Vader here with the double rerolls !

10.9 damage from the front arc of an ISD 1 is absolutely insane ! 10.3 damage from an Expanded Launchers VSD 1 is quite crazy as well !

So yeah, any upgrades that add more dice to the front arc (Devastator, Dominator) and any upgrade that can make these kind of attacks even more decisive (XI7, HTT) is probably going to be something fierce.

What about using the blue dice rerolls to fish for accuracies from cards like Dominator and Devastator ? Rather than fishing for more damage, making sure that this stuff goes through...

Great information from Rhytbryt and Snipafist, I looked into your posts with great interest ! I think we may be on to something for Vader here with the double rerolls !

Thanks!

What about using the blue dice rerolls to fish for accuracies from cards like Dominator and Devastator ? Rather than fishing for more damage, making sure that this stuff goes through...

That's my preferred means of using Vader when blue dice are involved. He particularly likes ISD-Is, as he enjoys rerolling blank red and black dice and rerolling all blue dice if no accuracies were achieved in the initial roll. The problem being that ISD-Is aren't currently very meta-favored (but you can make them work!)

Personally, I have found that when I roll 4 red and 4 blue that I get 1 accuracy.

For the times I get too many accuracies, I prioritize the rerolls by not reroll img the red Accuracy if there is one (could end up blank) and depending on the amount of accuracies I am fishing for I will reroll the blues.

ok, I'm sold on Vader now. Completely sold.

thanks much for the informative post, definitely going to try a list out this weekend at a store champs.

Great information from Rhytbryt and Snipafist, I looked into your posts with great interest ! I think we may be on to something for Vader here with the double rerolls !

Thanks!

What about using the blue dice rerolls to fish for accuracies from cards like Dominator and Devastator ? Rather than fishing for more damage, making sure that this stuff goes through...

That's my preferred means of using Vader when blue dice are involved. He particularly likes ISD-Is, as he enjoys rerolling blank red and black dice and rerolling all blue dice if no accuracies were achieved in the initial roll. The problem being that ISD-Is aren't currently very meta-favored (but you can make them work!)

Well, I realized today that I played my ISD2s and VSD2s in ways that would make their 1 counterpart effective. I think the II-classes promote a more paced and tactical gameplay centered around hanging back and making the opponent come while still tanking damage. I did find that the blue dice rerolls weren't super awesome (usually irrelevant and gave enough good damage for a conservative approach already). I did find that when entering ranges where I would be targeted by multiple other ships/squadrons, the defensive retrofit of the ISD2 would matter a lot less, because I was burning tokens like crazy anyways.

Actually, Vader's higher cost would make sense if you downgrade to I variants instead of II variants. A VSD 1 is 13 points cheaper than a VSD 2 and an ISD 1 is 10 points cheaper than an ISD 2. So, just by taking an ISD1 instead of a ISD2, you've paid the difference in poitns between Vader and Screed.

I do agree that the ISD1 is not meta favoured, I'm pretty sure I'll get some good mileage out of that for the Store Champ

EDIT : The question remains though of whether or not it is going to be possible to get those amazing shots to count for something if the opponent can simply Brace them away. Because only taking 5 damage on a Neb or an AFMK2 isn't really a scary prospect. Intel Officers might be decent here (even though I'm starting to feel they're better on smaller attacks but a high number of them, because if it's your one chance to use the Brace then I'd use it before it goes away).

I did find that the blue dice rerolls weren't super awesome (usually irrelevant and gave enough good damage for a conservative approach already). I did find that when entering ranges where I would be targeted by multiple other ships/squadrons, the defensive retrofit of the ISD2 would matter a lot less, because I was burning tokens like crazy anyways.

Actually, Vader's higher cost would make sense if you downgrade to I variants instead of II variants. A VSD 1 is 13 points cheaper than a VSD 2 and an ISD 1 is 10 points cheaper than an ISD 2. So, just by taking an ISD1 instead of a ISD2, you've paid the difference in poitns between Vader and Screed.

I do agree that the ISD1 is not meta favoured, I'm pretty sure I'll get some good mileage out of that for the Store Champ

EDIT : The question remains though of whether or not it is going to be possible to get those amazing shots to count for something if the opponent can simply Brace them away. Because only taking 5 damage on a Neb or an AFMK2 isn't really a scary prospect. Intel Officers might be decent here (even though I'm starting to feel they're better on smaller attacks but a high number of them, because if it's your one chance to use the Brace then I'd use it before it goes away).

I agree on the blue rerolls. I gave up testing after about 100, since it usually takes 1 reroll or less to get what I wanted out of them. There just aren't that many choices on the die, the hit and crit faces are basically the same unless you're trying to trigger a particular crit result, there's no extra damage face, and there's no "negative" face with no value.

I can see fishing for an accuracy if you have an ISD I, and maybe for blue crit results, but I found that for the ISD II, at least, odds are that the initial roll got pretty much the result I wanted (1 crit, 1 accuracy, 2 hits on average). There's not a lot of damage fluctuation either, since there's no big payoff face (doubles), and no result-loss, so the damage stays pretty consistently at 3 (which is what you'd expect). If you don't settle for any accuracies, you can push it closer to four, but if the goal is to get four damage out of blue dice, SW-7s will do that for you 100% of the time, at a cheaper cost than a reroll combo (especially when you consider that Leading Shots costs you a blue die, which means you're giving up 1 damage if you're spending a hit/crit, with no chance to make that damage up on a blue reroll--reds and blacks at least offer the chance to replace that lost value through doubles). Same with blue crits if you take Screed instead of reroll combos (and even H-9s if you want to guarantee an accuracy every attack, though that's a bit pricier and has more opportunity cost--no Xi7s, for example).

The brace is the big question mark (for most ships at least). It's not completely avoidable if you score an accuracy (ECMs and all that), but at least your opponent has to exhaust something to make it work. Raw dice rolls are the starting point. Rerolls are an enhancement (turning a crappy roll into a decent one, and a decent roll into a great one), but Intel Officer, Xi7s, HTTs, Overload Pulse, etc. still have definite roles to play in getting your refined damage through to your target.

Actually, Vader's higher cost would make sense if you downgrade to I variants instead of II variants. A VSD 1 is 13 points cheaper than a VSD 2 and an ISD 1 is 10 points cheaper than an ISD 2. So, just by taking an ISD1 instead of a ISD2, you've paid the difference in poitns between Vader and Screed.

I do agree that the ISD1 is not meta favoured, I'm pretty sure I'll get some good mileage out of that for the Store Champ

EDIT : The question remains though of whether or not it is going to be possible to get those amazing shots to count for something if the opponent can simply Brace them away. Because only taking 5 damage on a Neb or an AFMK2 isn't really a scary prospect. Intel Officers might be decent here (even though I'm starting to feel they're better on smaller attacks but a high number of them, because if it's your one chance to use the Brace then I'd use it before it goes away).

thats my problem with Vader, he doesn't impact the 2 variants enough to be worth 36 points and after you downgrade to the 1 variants Screed has basically the same damage output, for 10 points less...

Had the exact same results as you today in a game wher eI played an ISD 2 with Vader. I usually didn't really need to reroll the blue dice, or the reroll wouldn't change much the outcome of the roll anyways, so it wasn't very useful.

Yeah, the Brace is unavoidable unfortuantely it seems... Intel Officer could help, but i feel it's more of an upgrade for the long game at long-medium range ("Are you really going to lose your Brace for 2 to 3 damage ?"). For large dice pools (and that is what made Ackbar + Home One very powerful) were the accuracies capable of fishing the Brace down.

Had the exact same results as you today in a game wher eI played an ISD 2 with Vader. I usually didn't really need to reroll the blue dice, or the reroll wouldn't change much the outcome of the roll anyways, so it wasn't very useful.

Yeah, the Brace is unavoidable unfortuantely it seems... Intel Officer could help, but i feel it's more of an upgrade for the long game at long-medium range ("Are you really going to lose your Brace for 2 to 3 damage ?"). For large dice pools (and that is what made Ackbar + Home One very powerful) were the accuracies capable of fishing the Brace down.

I can see this being a thing but not always.

I mean, I have had games where negating both Evades on a Scout Frigate won me the game, and I got those by reroll with Vader

So, I did have the chance to try a list with Vader on an ISD 1 with Ordnance Experts and Devastator and a Vic 1 with Dominator, Expanded Launchers. Vader + Ordnance Experts did allow me to secure 10 damage from the ISD's front arc, but the reroll really felt superfluous with Ordnance Experts.

Rather, I think that Vader's real bonus is working on a 1-2 punch combo by freeing up the Weapons Team slot for Squadron-boosting upgrades.

Why the squadron boosting upgrades ? Well, ISDs are carriers and so are Victories. The longer you delay squadron superiority, the longer you delay when your fighters can attack ships to help peck away at the shields. I think that ISDs have to be played at carriers, because they simply prevent your list from having a high number of attacks to be efficient. And 5 squadrons throwing blue dice at shields are always good to take ! If you can throw 5 dice for 2 turns at the shield facing you've targeted, then follow it up by an attack with HTT, you're being completely obnoxious.

So, getting more out of the squadrons in preparation for a large attack is probably a good option By securing your anti-ship damage with Vader's rerolls, you can ensure dominating the squadron battle through anti-squadron upgrades.

Have you tried my Vader Duet list?

I know it sounds like I am tooting my own horn but I have found that the list works really well with Vader.

Have you tried my Vader Duet list?

I know it sounds like I am tooting my own horn but I have found that the list works really well with Vader.

I only own 1 ISD, but I'm pretty sure it's a very solid way to run Vader Perhaps the best way ! What's worse than 1 ISD rushing at you ? Being forced to split shots between 2 of them.

I'm going to try playing a IGR list with Vader for the Store champs, focusing all on squadron superiority to peck away at shields for a big punch by the ISD.

Have you tried my Vader Duet list?

I know it sounds like I am tooting my own horn but I have found that the list works really well with Vader.

I only own 1 ISD, but I'm pretty sure it's a very solid way to run Vader Perhaps the best way ! What's worse than 1 ISD rushing at you ? Being forced to split shots between 2 of them.

I'm going to try playing a IGR list with Vader for the Store champs, focusing all on squadron superiority to peck away at shields for a big punch by the ISD.

Hmmm you will have to time the shots and make sure your ISD is not. Taking the worst of the attacks.

The only other concept I can think of is IVV with Vader. . . Wonder if I can make it work. . .

Best I could come up with is an IVG list. . .

+++ (18FEB) IVG Vader (397pts) +++

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (71pts) [Assault Proton Torpedoes, •Demolisher]

Kitted out Imp deuce - Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (169pts) [Gunnery Team, XI7 Turbolasers, •Darth Vader]

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (98pts) [Gunnery Team, XI7 Turbolasers]

+ Squadrons (59pts) +

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

TIE Advanced Squadron (12pts)

•"Mauler" Mithel (15pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Precision Strike]

Defense Objective [Fire Lanes]

Navigation Objective [intel Sweep]

IVV can work but I'm not sure it can with Vader. Because of the low speed of the Victories, you're looking at playing the long game and do sustained damage, while Vader likes some decisive action. If you play your ISD at Speed 3, it's going to be separated from the pack quite early on and will get focused unfortunately.

A CHUNK of the arguments here pro-Vader have been for the whole Red-Die-Reroll thing...

IVV should work then. Don't speed 3 the Imperial just because it can. Red-Die Reroll with everything concentrating together, perhaps?

A CHUNK of the arguments here pro-Vader have been for the whole Red-Die-Reroll thing...

IVV should work then. Don't speed 3 the Imperial just because it can. Red-Die Reroll with everything concentrating together, perhaps?

A CHUNK of the arguments here pro-Vader have been for the whole Red-Die-Reroll thing...

IVV should work then. Don't speed 3 the Imperial just because it can. Red-Die Reroll with everything concentrating together, perhaps?

Fair point

___

To go one step beyond with Vader and range, there's one thing that I've barely seen discussed here : what about using Vader to both reroll red dice as well as fish for blue crits ?

When we think crits, we think Screed and righfully so. But he is much better when fishing for black crits than he is blue crits. At best, Screed can add 2 damage and at worst he adds no damage but triggers the crit.

When it comes to blue dice though, and when considering a red + blue roll, at best he adds nothing but triggers the crit, at worst he adds no damage but triggers the crit at the expense of an accuracy.

Could Vader, on the other hand, be useful for fishing blue crits on top of fishing for blue accuracies while increasing the damage from the red dice ? The hypothesis is the following : Vader increases Red dice damage by 37.5% if you reroll both blanks and accuracies. can we take advantage of that to reroll all blue hits in order to fish for crits and accuracies ?

If rerolling only regular blue hits, Vader's ability yields a 43.75% chance per blue dice to get either an accruacy or a crit which is 75% increase over the regular acc/crit chance.

Assuming an average ISD 2 roll of 3 damage and 1 blank on the reds and 3 damage and 1 Acc on the blues, Vader will push this up to 4 damage on the reds and 2 damage and 2 accs on the blues; Overall it's not a worse damage roll but the multiple accs can help push damage through much better. Same gos for trigerring these annoying blue crits (Overload Pulse, Ion Cannon Batteries, NK7 Ions)

A CHUNK of the arguments here pro-Vader have been for the whole Red-Die-Reroll thing...

IVV should work then. Don't speed 3 the Imperial just because it can. Red-Die Reroll with everything concentrating together, perhaps?

Fair point

___

To go one step beyond with Vader and range, there's one thing that I've barely seen discussed here : what about using Vader to both reroll red dice as well as fish for blue crits ?

When we think crits, we think Screed and righfully so. But he is much better when fishing for black crits than he is blue crits. At best, Screed can add 2 damage and at worst he adds no damage but triggers the crit.

When it comes to blue dice though, and when considering a red + blue roll, at best he adds nothing but triggers the crit, at worst he adds no damage but triggers the crit at the expense of an accuracy.

Could Vader, on the other hand, be useful for fishing blue crits on top of fishing for blue accuracies while increasing the damage from the red dice ? The hypothesis is the following : Vader increases Red dice damage by 37.5% if you reroll both blanks and accuracies. can we take advantage of that to reroll all blue hits in order to fish for crits and accuracies ?

If rerolling only regular blue hits, Vader's ability yields a 43.75% chance per blue dice to get either an accruacy or a crit which is 75% increase over the regular acc/crit chance.

Assuming an average ISD 2 roll of 3 damage and 1 blank on the reds and 3 damage and 1 Acc on the blues, Vader will push this up to 4 damage on the reds and 2 damage and 2 accs on the blues; Overall it's not a worse damage roll but the multiple accs can help push damage through much better. Same gos for trigerring these annoying blue crits (Overload Pulse, Ion Cannon Batteries, NK7 Ions)

Yes, he could. It's less precision than Screed (guarantee of a crit, vs. good chance at a crit), but it's less damage lost potentially (as Screed requires you to cancel a die, whereas rerolling a hit to get a crit results in no net damage loss).

On four blue dice, you have good odds at getting 1 blue crit anyway on your initial roll. Reroll 2-3 non-crits again, and you again have excellent odds to get 1 blue crit out of them. It's not a guarantee, but it's a great chance, along with boosting your overall damage outcome on your red dice.

This assumes, of course, that you need a blue crit to trigger something on an ISD II's front arc. If you're trying to trigger a blue crit from a side arc, the front arc of an ISD I, or a smaller vessel (Raider II, for example), Screed might be the safer play--less overall damage output on your red dice, but Screed will be a more dependable crit trigger than Vader (the fewer blue dice you roll and reroll, the lower your odds at triggering a crit).

To rewind the convo a bit,

the reason I think collecting at least some rudimentary data from actual games is important is because math and theory are great, but it matters what lands.

My Sensei always said that the cleanest, most perfect technique in the world won't help one bit if you can't land the blow. If you somehow guarantee you get 5 ISDII front arcs out of 6 rounds X 2 ISDs I would say take Vader every time or you are crippling yourself. But in my experience I have won games where my lone ISD II shoots out the front arc 1 time, maybe 2, sometimes never or only at red range, so for that list and play style, Vader is a waste and it would be silly to take him.

To that end, basic list makeup, how many dice you rolled, how many rerolls you did and actual effectiveness is such better objective data!

even if all you do is keep a scratch pad with a few columns where you make a hash mark for every die you roll in the first column, how much unmodified damage in second column, how many dice rerolled in the third column and how much final damage in the last column.

You would end up with numbers that gave you a rough idea of ​actual impact which I think would be extremely interested. For example you might have a game where you see

50 | 36 | 22 | 45 which would give you an idea of how much more damage you did over base

The challenge is to collect enough data to be statistically significant and relevant to a commanders advantage while not being burdensome to record or introducing too much opportunity for error.

It all comes down to speed control. . . I really need to write an article on this or do a video. . .

The problem with on table performance to gauge whether upgrade cards are valuable is that you factor in the skill of the commanders and we are never always perfect logicians all the time.

We need theorycrafting to understand what to expect from a ship or an upgrade card if we are skilled enough to take advantage of their capabilities in a battle.

Example : people say the Neb Bs suck. Yet, I've won most of my Rebel games fielding 1 to 2 Neb Bs.

The problem with on table performance to gauge whether upgrade cards are valuable is that you factor in the skill of the commanders and we are never always perfect logicians all the time.

We need theorycrafting to understand what to expect from a ship or an upgrade card if we are skilled enough to take advantage of their capabilities in a battle.

Example : people say the Neb Bs suck. Yet, I've won most of my Rebel games fielding 1 to 2 Neb Bs.

I won a 400 point wave 1 tournament with 5 Nebs

Example : people say the Neb Bs suck. Yet, I've won most of my Rebel games fielding 1 to 2 Neb Bs.

It's been my experience that whenever someone makes a sweeping statement that broad, it's best to simply interpret it as "I've tried using X, and I didn't do very well with it."

I've been around long enough to hear that B-Wings suck, except then they didn't and everyone loved them.

I've heard about how Nebulon-Bs suck, except they don't (and were a linchpin ship for fending off the Gladiator-a-palooza of wave one).

I've heard about how Raiders suck most recently, except clontrooper5 just won the international Vassal tournament with them.

I've heard about (and for a while even believed) how squadrons suck except then Worlds was won by a guy with 8 A-Wing squadrons and the community consensus nowadays in wave two is you need a game plan for dealing with bomber blobs or else you're going to be very sad.

About the only thing I believe sucks nowadays is the pricing on some of the upgrade cards. Otherwise, take everything you hear with a big heaping spoonfull of salt.