Managed a win, didn't like it one bit.

I decided to try 2 things i am bad at/don't like: Spam lists and Vader

Used 5 raiders and a demolisher. My theory was that since your crappy little raiders want to get their black crits they will be in short range while shooting and won't need their crappy evade tokens anyway so Vader away baby!

It sucked. It sucked so hard. Screed is clearly a better choice on a list like this. Also: i still suck at raiders. How I won 7-3 i'll never know.

Next up: Vader on a 2 ISD list. Still not sold. If you could vader ace squadron dice he would be worth his points, as it stands I still feel he is way over priced.

And Raider IIs? a corvette with leia and Jainias light is cheaper (IIRC) than a naked raider 2. add in ion cannons (only reason to take a 2) and the point cost SNAFU becomes so much more pronounced...

And again, I'm not saying "Raiders Suck" (they don't) or "Vader sucks" (he doesn't) but that whoever put the point cost values on the raiders and Vader wasn't on his meds that day.

Do not rate Vader as an Admiral, spending defense tokens for a reroll, is poor. Especially considering a lot of Imperial ships get black dice and can take Ordnance Experts.

I guess if you did a dual Imp II build Vader might shine, but then you are going to have the issue of actually getting something in your front arc to fire all 8 dice at, with only 2 ships that is going to be a big ask, most of the time if you are facing a competent rebel player, your going to be red dice only in that front arc, and get your blue dice side/rear time. So a reroll on 4/3 dice? I'd rather have an extra 6 hps from Motti.

I find Vader as a Commander as an amazing option.

My Vader Duet list works wonders.

Getting all 8 dice is easy unless you are silly and don't control your speed.

Was a good game.

I find Vader as a Commander as an amazing option.

My Vader Duet list works wonders.

Getting all 8 dice is easy unless you are silly and don't control your speed.

Getting all 8 dice is easy? my last tournament all 3 of my opponents had 5 ships each, which means going first or second meant never ever getting that full front arc 8 dice off, not a single time in 3 games, and I placed 2nd in that tournament with a 4 ship list, so please forgive me if I don't accept your hyperbole.

Getting a full front arc off with an Imp II or a Vsd takes a monumental amount of fortune, and/or a mistake by your opponent, usually both. Or someone who does not know better.

Vader is powerful. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power to prevent enormously bad dice rolls. Especially when you only manage to bring your front arc 1-2 times into the fight per game, Vader is an important tool to make this attacks dealing the damage and bringing effects to the enemy. Vader is a damage-insurance.

Vader vs Screed: I would everytime prefer Vader. Screed wants a die to be completly disabled, just to turn another die into a crit. Screed can be used to get the crits you need for some mighty upgrade cards, but rolling 4 or more dice per attack, I cant rember a dice result where I didnt got at minimum 1 crit face. So.. there is no need for Screed when you roll many dice. So..every ship in the imperial fleet got at minimum 1 defence token which is just effective in some special circumstances. (the GSDs evade, the ISDs contain, ...) that means from my point of view Vaders defence token requisition is not as bad as it seems to be.

Vader vs ordnance experts: The only thing I see in Armada which is a better choice than Vader are the ordnance experts. But they only effect black dice. So Vaders power is proportional to the amount of ships with huge dice pools you got in your list. And even commanding a Raider or GSD list, Vader can be used with ordnance experts as a double-insurance. Just imagine the result of a 4 black dice GSD I side arc with 2 possible rerolls - I would definitely expect 4 dice with a crit/hit face.. and thats devastating.

Have a read of this,

http://www.wwpd.net/2015/11/armada-stats-analysis-vader-vs-screed.html

I bookmarked it when it was originally posted here, useful info, and while Vader does shine with non black dice compared to Screed, getting the use out of them is problematic.

I guess it will come down to personal preference, for me it is Screed over Vader, and I like taking Vader as a Squadron card.

IMHO I think it was probably the wrong admiral in the wrong fleet for the OP. My main beef with Vader is that he's expencive and I really haven't had much enthusiam to sit down and start building a list around his ability.

Vader is powerful. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power to prevent enormously bad dice rolls. Especially when you only manage to bring your front arc 1-2 times into the fight per game, Vader is an important tool to make this attacks dealing the damage and bringing effects to the enemy. Vader is a damage-insurance.

Vader vs Screed: I would everytime prefer Vader. Screed wants a die to be completly disabled, just to turn another die into a crit. Screed can be used to get the crits you need for some mighty upgrade cards, but rolling 4 or more dice per attack, I cant rember a dice result where I didnt got at minimum 1 crit face. So.. there is no need for Screed when you roll many dice. So..every ship in the imperial fleet got at minimum 1 defence token which is just effective in some special circumstances. (the GSDs evade, the ISDs contain, ...) that means from my point of view Vaders defence token requisition is not as bad as it seems to be.

Vader vs ordnance experts: The only thing I see in Armada which is a better choice than Vader are the ordnance experts. But they only effect black dice. So Vaders power is proportional to the amount of ships with huge dice pools you got in your list. And even commanding a Raider or GSD list, Vader can be used with ordnance experts as a double-insurance. Just imagine the result of a 4 black dice GSD I side arc with 2 possible rerolls - I would definitely expect 4 dice with a crit/hit face.. and thats devastating.

I feel he does not only compete with ordnance experts but with leading shots - a 4pt system every ISD and the VSD-II may take, which are the only ships that have to deal with an overwhelming front arc that 100% need to make an impact the few times you can bring it to bear. For an average damage loss of 0,75 or an acc I net the same reroll, granted at close-mid range (or a devastator ISD with at least 1 discarded token at any range), only.

Of cause there are other "opportunity costs" in taking leading shots, but it is still one of my go-to upgrades on ISD/VSD-II. Means, I dont see why vader is costed as he is, even though I would not call him useless at all but overpriced. His buddies with similar price tags (ackbar, Tarkin) seem to provide more for their points..

Vader vs Screed: I would everytime prefer Vader. Screed wants a die to be completly disabled, just to turn another die into a crit. Screed can be used to get the crits you need for some mighty upgrade cards, but rolling 4 or more dice per attack, I cant rember a dice result where I didnt got at minimum 1 crit face. So.. there is no need for Screed when you roll many dice. So..every ship in the imperial fleet got at minimum 1 defence token which is just effective in some special circumstances. (the GSDs evade, the ISDs contain, ...) that means from my point of view Vaders defence token requisition is not as bad as it seems to be.

I agree with the other two points because I am actually a fan of Vader, but I don't think you quite understand the importance of Screed.

Say I had a VSD 2 with Screed on board, and I have Overload Pulse and am attacking a CR90 at medium range. I roll 1 damage. 2 blanks for the red, 1 crit, and 1 damage, and 1 accuarcy with the blue. I get rid of the Redirect with the accuracy. Now, obviously the Cr90 will spend an evade to make me reroll the crit, but before that I can use screed to spend 1 red blank to get change the blue damage to a crit. This means I can still use overload pulse because this second crit protects the first. This is what I use Screed for, to guarantee a crit or to protect an existing crit. He is more useful than Vader for small ships that have less dice and less chance of rolling a crit after they have spent a die. He can be very useful against a fleet with Motha as commander.

IMHO I think it was probably the wrong admiral in the wrong fleet for the OP. My main beef with Vader is that he's expencive and I really haven't had much enthusiam to sit down and start building a list around his ability.

Dare I say it, but Ozzel is probably a better choice for the OP's list due to all the high speed ships.

I love Vader, but like most admirals he needs a specific build and mindset to win. Vader is all about attack, attack and attack. Spending defence tokens doesn't matter if you kill the opponent's ships. He really sings with red and black dice fleets due to the greater standard deviation of results. I have had a fair bit of success with the fleet below. The damage output with Vader is ridiculously good.

ISD-1, Vader, Avenger, Wulff Yularen, Quad-laser turrets

GSD-1, Demolisher, APTs

GSD-1

Raider-1, Ordnance experts

5 X TIE fighter

IG88

As has been said above Leading shots on ISDs and VSD-IIs can get you almost the same result as Vader if you are at blue range. You spend a dice but keep the defence token. Ordnance experts can get you rerolls of black dice on GSDs and Raider-Is.

I like Vader in 4+ ship builds. If you are spending lots of points on leading shots and Ordnance experts it may be more efficient to just take Vader. If however you take only 2 ISDs then just pay the 8 points for leading shots and keep Motti or Ozzel and gain their benefits too.

Screed used to be the go to admiral in wave 1 but now only take him If you have 3+ weapons relying on crits such as ACMs, APTs and OL Pulse.

I tried as hard as I could to love Vader. You can do almost all of what he does with the reroll upgrades others have often mentioned. All you gain for the 10-16 points he costs over the cheaper admirals is rerolls at red range. This would be a better ability with the rebel fleet. I've gone out of my way trying to maximize this red die reroll advantage - except taking a bunch of vsd. (Shudders)

Much respect to the Vader love though

I think that many people have trouble liking Vader because they're dead set on trying to build around his ability, rather than just considering the Commander as an expensive upgrade for the fleet rather than a single ship, that provide a nice-to-have ability that could be useful throughout the game.

I played Vader almost exclusively since Wave 2 started and where I found he really shined was buffing the side arcs or the front arcs at long range. I was facing very shy Rebels that didn't use the bigger ships and were swarms lists in my last games. Against a well played swarm list, you never will be able to get an optimal front arc shot unless the opponent is a bad player or sacrifices his small ships with Rieekan, let's all be honest about that. But, every turn, rerolling these dice is pretty, pretty good because that's all you're going to get against the smaller ships.

I tried as hard as I could to love Vader. You can do almost all of what he does with the reroll upgrades others have often mentioned. All you gain for the 10-16 points he costs over the cheaper admirals is rerolls at red range. This would be a better ability with the rebel fleet. I've gone out of my way trying to maximize this red die reroll advantage - except taking a bunch of vsd. (Shudders)
Much respect to the Vader love though

You shouls definitely try not maximizing your commander for a game, but rather take his/her ability as a cool upgrade which you might get to use during the game. Really, much like Motti, you're not building a list around to maximize Motti's given HPs because that's the best way to make a list unfunctioning , but you're buffing up your fleet with his gifts and hope it won't come to where they make the difference in the survivability.

Great response and I don't disagree. I meant it when I said Motti doesn't inspire me - think I said "lazy" on the show - but I know with all the other leaders I'm gaining something that will actually happen.

When I burned that token to reroll one more damage, I was pleased; disappointed when I rolled into no gain or worse. At least with boring Motti I know for certain that if nothing else the ship he's riding is going to take x more damage to destroy. No roll needed.

Great response and I don't disagree. I meant it when I said Motti doesn't inspire me - think I said "lazy" on the show - but I know with all the other leaders I'm gaining something that will actually happen.

When I burned that token to reroll one more damage, I was pleased; disappointed when I rolled into no gain or worse. At least with boring Motti I know for certain that if nothing else the ship he's riding is going to take x more damage to destroy. No roll needed.

Obviously, rerolling to another blank is quite painful I often see comparisons between Screed and Vader, with Screed considered better than Vader because he can ensure a crit nad the player knows it's going to happen. Fair point. But int the cases all of your black ride rolls throw at least a hit/crit (which I've seen happened many times), Screed is a wasted investment.

You are definitely right about sometimes the defense tokens not being worth spending to reroll 1 to 2 dice. But it's a choice you get to make, which is cool. Obviously, early game it's an even better choice, and late game it is useless if you don't have defense tokens remaining

EDIT : By the way, I wasn't being condescening or anything when I suggested that you tried playing Admirals as a nice to have upgrade rather than a key piece of a carefully logistical upgrades chains. I've seen a few of your batreps and all the IFF shows, enough to know that you know what works and what doesn't

But, looking at the Commander differently for a few games/lists, could be an interesting and fresh experience. I mean, Rieekan is pretty game changing, but if you take him to purposefully sacrifice the points (which is the best way to min/max his ability), you're giving points to the opponent But considering him as a back up plan for a list that was flown aggressively anyways and he is quite potent.

I'm just going to second what's been said about Vader wanting large dice pools. The +dice upgrades go further with him than the crit: do a thing upgrades do (and which Screed is better at). The main downside at the moment for Vader is that the Imperial fleet has a large number of black dice short-range ships with disposable (at short range) Evade tokens that Screed is generally better at running. Vader runs ISDs very well but fitting multiples is often difficult. As the Imperials (hopefully) gain more long-ranged bruisers, Vader's stock should improve.

I think that many people have trouble liking Vader because they're dead set on trying to build around his ability, rather than just considering the Commander as an expensive upgrade for the fleet rather than a single ship, that provide a nice-to-have ability that could be useful throughout the game.

I played Vader almost exclusively since Wave 2 started and where I found he really shined was buffing the side arcs or the front arcs at long range. I was facing very shy Rebels that didn't use the bigger ships and were swarms lists in my last games. Against a well played swarm list, you never will be able to get an optimal front arc shot unless the opponent is a bad player or sacrifices his small ships with Rieekan, let's all be honest about that. But, every turn, rerolling these dice is pretty, pretty good because that's all you're going to get against the smaller ships.

I tried as hard as I could to love Vader. You can do almost all of what he does with the reroll upgrades others have often mentioned. All you gain for the 10-16 points he costs over the cheaper admirals is rerolls at red range. This would be a better ability with the rebel fleet. I've gone out of my way trying to maximize this red die reroll advantage - except taking a bunch of vsd. (Shudders)

Much respect to the Vader love though

You shouls definitely try not maximizing your commander for a game, but rather take his/her ability as a cool upgrade which you might get to use during the game. Really, much like Motti, you're not building a list around to maximize Motti's given HPs because that's the best way to make a list unfunctioning , but you're buffing up your fleet with his gifts and hope it won't come to where they make the difference in the survivability.

Obviously you are right with stating that Vader is the only upgrade affecting long range shots - I just think that this is a niche which is hardly worth 36 points. In my opinion, imperials are not really blessed with long range power and tend to getting outgunned. It is medium or even close range where we shine. Following this, I tend to be at long range only for a turn max, trying to cross the distance, and even if taking a CF command into account those long range volley are not that impressing - the return fire trumps it, 7/10 times.

Regarding fleet building, I tend to go with Motti a lot since he is the cheapest of the lot. His ability is boring as hell, but since I have to pay for one guy sitting in the command throne all bossy and stuff, why not go with the cheap guy and spend those 12 points difference elsewhere? Same goes for screed but for black dice heavy fleets.

I find Vader as a Commander as an amazing option.

My Vader Duet list works wonders.

Getting all 8 dice is easy unless you are silly and don't control your speed.

Getting all 8 dice is easy? my last tournament all 3 of my opponents had 5 ships each, which means going first or second meant never ever getting that full front arc 8 dice off, not a single time in 3 games, and I placed 2nd in that tournament with a 4 ship list, so please forgive me if I don't accept your hyperbole.

Getting a full front arc off with an Imp II or a Vsd takes a monumental amount of fortune, and/or a mistake by your opponent, usually both. Or someone who does not know better.

No fortune needed. If you know when to time your turn and what speed to go at, you can get the front shot needed.

Vader also does something that Screed is bad at, Ordnance Experts/Leading Shots can't do. He reliably rerolls red dice keeping your level of damage up.

I don't usually have problems catching my opponents faster ships. It takes a lot of practice and patience, but the most important thing is speed control.

If Imperials had an Salvation, AF2s and an Assault MC80, Vader would he more popular than Ackbar.

If Imperials had an Salvation, AF2s and an Assault MC80, Vader would he more popular than Ackbar.

If a day ever comes where Imperials get a red-dice ship with a turbolaser slot and an Evade token, Vader+ Turbolaser Reroute Circuits are gonna make some Rebels have a very bad time.

Obviously you are right with stating that Vader is the only upgrade affecting long range shots - I just think that this is a niche which is hardly worth 36 points. In my opinion, imperials are not really blessed with long range power and tend to getting outgunned. It is medium or even close range where we shine. Following this, I tend to be at long range only for a turn max, trying to cross the distance, and even if taking a CF command into account those long range volley are not that impressing - the return fire trumps it, 7/10 times.

Regarding fleet building, I tend to go with Motti a lot since he is the cheapest of the lot. His ability is boring as hell, but since I have to pay for one guy sitting in the command throne all bossy and stuff, why not go with the cheap guy and spend those 12 points difference elsewhere? Same goes for screed but for black dice heavy fleets.

Consider this : Vader's long range niche is just the icing on the cake

You also get the rerolls at medium and close range, which is like you said the distance you should be aiming for. And this is where Vader brings out his hidden card : the ability to have the equivalent of multiple upgrade cards within a single slot

1) In the ion cannon slot, if you take Leading Shots for the rerolls, you can't put Ion Cannon cards that trigger critical effects

2) In the Weapons Team slot, if you take Ordnance Experts, you can't take any other upgrade which are still very solid choices

With Vader, you can in effect have both Leading Shots + a crit effect upgrade, and you can have Ordnance Experts + GT/FC/RS. You don't have that opportunity cost of having to have one or the other, and you actually have a good chance of triggering crit effects because you'll take Vader with large dice pools and the rerolling.

Let's take a look at the probability for an ISD2's front arc to naturally roll a blue critical :

1) Number of blue dice : 4 / Chance of not rolling a crit per dice : 0.75

2) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.75^4 = 0.31 --> Organically, an ISD2's front arc has 69% chance of rolling a single critical hit without any modification. Which is a decent probability, but nothing surefire.

Now, let's look at Vader's ability :

3) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.31

4) Chance of 4 blue dice not rolling a single critical result after rolling all 4 dice because of not getting a single critical result : 0.31*0.31 = 0.10

With Vader on an ISD 2's front arc, you have 90% chance of rolling at least one critical result. Screed gives 100% for every ship, but where Screed's ability is more interesting than Vader's is when you're rolling low dice pools. Let's take the same analysis on an ISD 2's side arc :

1) Number of blue dice : 2 / Chance of not rolling a critical result per die : 0.75

2) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625

3) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result afer rerolling 2 blue dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625² = 31%

Screed is more interesting than Vader when rolling low amounts of dice.

The thing with Vader, and this is why he hard to math compared to Screed or Motti, is the fact that like Garm Bel Iblis he gives options and options are hard to value until you are in a situation on the tabletop where options are needed. Do we look for crits ? Do we look for accuracies ? Do I keep the result as it is now ? Options, options, options are what make him good.

Oviously, he doesn't really belong in all fleets. He likes VSDs and ISDs and that's about it because of large dice pools and he doesn't benefit (as we saw in our ISD2 front vs side arc math time) small dice pools as much. He also likes ships that can stick in the brawl for a decent amount of time and have sufficient range to project damage and trigger Vader's ability. But he requires a specific doctrine for building fleets.

For example, in my last game, I almost "one shotted" a CR90 at long range (1hp remaining) after activating 3 TIE Fighters + TIE Bomber shooting at the rear arc followed by 4 red dice including one Acc that allowed me to block the redirect. If only my fighter's dice throws hasn't been so sucky, that CR90 would have been no more (1 damage overall, from a TIE !) Vader allowed me to do that by ensuring at least 2 double hits, one crit and one acc. Which is pretty impressive in my book at the ISD's least effective range by a large margin and mitigates one of the key weaknesses of medium/large Imperial ships : being outmaneuvered by more nimble ships (against a swarm, you'll only be able to get front arc shots if the opponent fails at maneuvers or suicides one of his ships).

_____

Late disclaimer : I'm not argumenting against your opinion, because I respect the fact that you said that you don't value Vader at 36 points and you're more than welcome to think that, rather than saying "Vader sucks".

I don't care enough about Vader to want him to be used by more people (I actually like the fact that we don't really see much of him, I can surprise my opponents who underestimate him because of his cost ! ).

Obviously you are right with stating that Vader is the only upgrade affecting long range shots - I just think that this is a niche which is hardly worth 36 points. In my opinion, imperials are not really blessed with long range power and tend to getting outgunned. It is medium or even close range where we shine. Following this, I tend to be at long range only for a turn max, trying to cross the distance, and even if taking a CF command into account those long range volley are not that impressing - the return fire trumps it, 7/10 times.

Regarding fleet building, I tend to go with Motti a lot since he is the cheapest of the lot. His ability is boring as hell, but since I have to pay for one guy sitting in the command throne all bossy and stuff, why not go with the cheap guy and spend those 12 points difference elsewhere? Same goes for screed but for black dice heavy fleets.

Consider this : Vader's long range niche is just the icing on the cake

You also get the rerolls at medium and close range, which is like you said the distance you should be aiming for. And this is where Vader brings out his hidden card : the ability to have the equivalent of multiple upgrade cards within a single slot

1) In the ion cannon slot, if you take Leading Shots for the rerolls, you can't put Ion Cannon cards that trigger critical effects

2) In the Weapons Team slot, if you take Ordnance Experts, you can't take any other upgrade which are still very solid choices

With Vader, you can in effect have both Leading Shots + a crit effect upgrade, and you can have Ordnance Experts + GT/FC/RS. You don't have that opportunity cost of having to have one or the other, and you actually have a good chance of triggering crit effects because you'll take Vader with large dice pools and the rerolling.

Let's take a look at the probability for an ISD2's front arc to naturally roll a blue critical :

1) Number of blue dice : 4 / Chance of not rolling a crit per dice : 0.75

2) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.75^4 = 0.31 --> Organically, an ISD2's front arc has 69% chance of rolling a single critical hit without any modification. Which is a decent probability, but nothing surefire.

Now, let's look at Vader's ability :

3) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.31

4) Chance of 4 blue dice not rolling a single critical result after rolling all 4 dice because of not getting a single critical result : 0.31*0.31 = 0.10

With Vader on an ISD 2's front arc, you have 90% chance of rolling at least one critical result. Screed gives 100% for every ship, but where Screed's ability is more interesting than Vader's is when you're rolling low dice pools. Let's take the same analysis on an ISD 2's side arc :

1) Number of blue dice : 2 / Chance of not rolling a critical result per die : 0.75

2) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625

3) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result afer rerolling 2 blue dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625² = 31%

Screed is more interesting than Vader when rolling low amounts of dice.

The thing with Vader, and this is why he hard to math compared to Screed or Motti, is the fact that like Garm Bel Iblis he gives options and options are hard to value until you are in a situation on the tabletop where options are needed. Do we look for crits ? Do we look for accuracies ? Do I keep the result as it is now ? Options, options, options are what make him good.

Oviously, he doesn't really belong in all fleets. He likes VSDs and ISDs and that's about it because of large dice pools and he doesn't benefit (as we saw in our ISD2 front vs side arc math time) small dice pools as much. He also likes ships that can stick in the brawl for a decent amount of time and have sufficient range to project damage and trigger Vader's ability. But he requires a specific doctrine for building fleets.

For example, in my last game, I almost "one shotted" a CR90 at long range (1hp remaining) after activating 3 TIE Fighters + TIE Bomber shooting at the rear arc followed by 4 red dice including one Acc that allowed me to block the redirect. If only my fighter's dice throws hasn't been so sucky, that CR90 would have been no more (1 damage overall, from a TIE !) Vader allowed me to do that by ensuring at least 2 double hits, one crit and one acc. Which is pretty impressive in my book at the ISD's least effective range by a large margin and mitigates one of the key weaknesses of medium/large Imperial ships : being outmaneuvered by more nimble ships (against a swarm, you'll only be able to get front arc shots if the opponent fails at maneuvers or suicides one of his ships).

_____

Late disclaimer : I'm not argumenting against your opinion, because I respect the fact that you said that you don't value Vader at 36 points and you're more than welcome to think that, rather than saying "Vader sucks".

I don't care enough about Vader to want him to be used by more people (I actually like the fact that we don't really see much of him, I can surprise my opponents who underestimate him because of his cost ! ).

Options. People are not considering how powerful an option really is in this game.

Obviously you are right with stating that Vader is the only upgrade affecting long range shots - I just think that this is a niche which is hardly worth 36 points. In my opinion, imperials are not really blessed with long range power and tend to getting outgunned. It is medium or even close range where we shine. Following this, I tend to be at long range only for a turn max, trying to cross the distance, and even if taking a CF command into account those long range volley are not that impressing - the return fire trumps it, 7/10 times.

Regarding fleet building, I tend to go with Motti a lot since he is the cheapest of the lot. His ability is boring as hell, but since I have to pay for one guy sitting in the command throne all bossy and stuff, why not go with the cheap guy and spend those 12 points difference elsewhere? Same goes for screed but for black dice heavy fleets.

Consider this : Vader's long range niche is just the icing on the cake

You also get the rerolls at medium and close range, which is like you said the distance you should be aiming for. And this is where Vader brings out his hidden card : the ability to have the equivalent of multiple upgrade cards within a single slot

1) In the ion cannon slot, if you take Leading Shots for the rerolls, you can't put Ion Cannon cards that trigger critical effects

2) In the Weapons Team slot, if you take Ordnance Experts, you can't take any other upgrade which are still very solid choices

With Vader, you can in effect have both Leading Shots + a crit effect upgrade, and you can have Ordnance Experts + GT/FC/RS. You don't have that opportunity cost of having to have one or the other, and you actually have a good chance of triggering crit effects because you'll take Vader with large dice pools and the rerolling.

Let's take a look at the probability for an ISD2's front arc to naturally roll a blue critical :

1) Number of blue dice : 4 / Chance of not rolling a crit per dice : 0.75

2) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.75^4 = 0.31 --> Organically, an ISD2's front arc has 69% chance of rolling a single critical hit without any modification. Which is a decent probability, but nothing surefire.

Now, let's look at Vader's ability :

3) Chance of 4 dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.31

4) Chance of 4 blue dice not rolling a single critical result after rolling all 4 dice because of not getting a single critical result : 0.31*0.31 = 0.10

With Vader on an ISD 2's front arc, you have 90% chance of rolling at least one critical result. Screed gives 100% for every ship, but where Screed's ability is more interesting than Vader's is when you're rolling low dice pools. Let's take the same analysis on an ISD 2's side arc :

1) Number of blue dice : 2 / Chance of not rolling a critical result per die : 0.75

2) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625

3) Chances of 2 dices not rolling a single critical result afer rerolling 2 blue dice not rolling a single critical result : 0.5625² = 31%

Screed is more interesting than Vader when rolling low amounts of dice.

The thing with Vader, and this is why he hard to math compared to Screed or Motti, is the fact that like Garm Bel Iblis he gives options and options are hard to value until you are in a situation on the tabletop where options are needed. Do we look for crits ? Do we look for accuracies ? Do I keep the result as it is now ? Options, options, options are what make him good.

Oviously, he doesn't really belong in all fleets. He likes VSDs and ISDs and that's about it because of large dice pools and he doesn't benefit (as we saw in our ISD2 front vs side arc math time) small dice pools as much. He also likes ships that can stick in the brawl for a decent amount of time and have sufficient range to project damage and trigger Vader's ability. But he requires a specific doctrine for building fleets.

For example, in my last game, I almost "one shotted" a CR90 at long range (1hp remaining) after activating 3 TIE Fighters + TIE Bomber shooting at the rear arc followed by 4 red dice including one Acc that allowed me to block the redirect. If only my fighter's dice throws hasn't been so sucky, that CR90 would have been no more (1 damage overall, from a TIE !) Vader allowed me to do that by ensuring at least 2 double hits, one crit and one acc. Which is pretty impressive in my book at the ISD's least effective range by a large margin and mitigates one of the key weaknesses of medium/large Imperial ships : being outmaneuvered by more nimble ships (against a swarm, you'll only be able to get front arc shots if the opponent fails at maneuvers or suicides one of his ships).

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Late disclaimer : I'm not argumenting against your opinion, because I respect the fact that you said that you don't value Vader at 36 points and you're more than welcome to think that, rather than saying "Vader sucks".

I don't care enough about Vader to want him to be used by more people (I actually like the fact that we don't really see much of him, I can surprise my opponents who underestimate him because of his cost ! ).

Options. People are not considering how powerful an option really is in this game.

What a contribution .. people are considering options as powerful, however the outcome of the consideration might differ with regard to the question how much people are willing to invest.

MoffZen, thanks for the write-up. I pressed like already, but since one-liners are a thing I express my like for your well-made explanation one more time.

How is Screed a wasted investment if you roll three black dice and they come up blank, hit , hit& criti ? You get to change the black to another hit&crit ...giving you two extra damage. Upping the damage with screed it just as important as fishing for crits.

While am on the subject of screed. Does the opponent get to use the evade token after I change my blank red dice to a critical? I imagine so according to the order (99% sure ) as I understand it because modify dice comes before using defense tokens. Had someone argue that the other day.

Cheers

Great response and I don't disagree. I meant it when I said Motti doesn't inspire me - think I said "lazy" on the show - but I know with all the other leaders I'm gaining something that will actually happen.

When I burned that token to reroll one more damage, I was pleased; disappointed when I rolled into no gain or worse. At least with boring Motti I know for certain that if nothing else the ship he's riding is going to take x more damage to destroy. No roll needed.

Obviously, rerolling to another blank is quite painful I often see comparisons between Screed and Vader, with Screed considered better than Vader because he can ensure a crit nad the player knows it's going to happen. Fair point. But int the cases all of your black ride rolls throw at least a hit/crit (which I've seen happened many times), Screed is a wasted investment.

You are definitely right about sometimes the defense tokens not being worth spending to reroll 1 to 2 dice. But it's a choice you get to make, which is cool. Obviously, early game it's an even better choice, and late game it is useless if you don't have defense tokens remaining

EDIT : By the way, I wasn't being condescening or anything when I suggested that you tried playing Admirals as a nice to have upgrade rather than a key piece of a carefully logistical upgrades chains. I've seen a few of your batreps and all the IFF shows, enough to know that you know what works and what doesn't

But, looking at the Commander differently for a few games/lists, could be an interesting and fresh experience. I mean, Rieekan is pretty game changing, but if you take him to purposefully sacrifice the points (which is the best way to min/max his ability), you're giving points to the opponent But considering him as a back up plan for a list that was flown aggressively anyways and he is quite potent.